Human origin" according to my own theory"

[OmegaScales]

Or a human in two trillion years, where the creation of universes is the pastime of children?

Ha ha ha! I can totally see that!

"Daddy, can I have that 'Create a Universe' toy?"

"Okay, but if you decide that you don't like it in a few million years, don't come crying to me."

If the whole universe was void, then what "big banged"? How can nothingness explode into a universe?

That was actually part of my thesis when I got out of Sunday School. Presbyterian church by the way. Actually, I haven't been since then much, but I still have my beliefs and dis-beliefs; I mean, there are things I don't believe are actually true, but I still believe in a "God".

[BMAD]

I asked myself questions and found answers in the Bible or on Christian websites. As to God's omnipotence, how could he suddenly become all-knowing? Similarly, if He has not always been there, where did He come from? If the theory of evolution is true, then we should be able to see a modest number of the organisms that we recognize as fully formed, but have many, many more transitional forms. How many links are between a fish and a reptile? How many combinations of mutations will it take to reach the next organism? If the whole universe was void, then what "big banged"? How can nothingness explode into a universe? There are hundreds of miracles listed in the Bible, and also miracles that we can see today. God does not only work by doing inexplicable things that defy science, He also works within natural laws. Take healings, for instance. One way to know that one God is real and not another is to check what that god says. Books of religion written by humans without God's guidance have mistakes and inaccuracies in them.

On a minor note: if one accepts that the big bang happened then they must realize that the big bang did not happen in the presennce of nothingness. It is a misunderstanding of the big bang to believe it happened in a vacuous space.

Now, I will return to the sidelines and enjoy the discussion.

[Kikacat123]

What was there, then? Matter? Antimatter?

[flamebirde]

Give me reasonable proof that has been tested by others and found to be consistently true, with no holes. As to what was there before the Big Bang, I haven't the faintest idea. Also, what "miracles" exist today? Sure, some things happen that modern science cannot explain. But actively trying to find an answer is better than sitting back and saying, "Well, I guess that was because of God. Case closed!" There simply is not enough evidence for creationism. Can you give me an example of some of the questions that you asked and the answers you found?

[Kikacat123]

Well, one question I had was how we can be able to see light from stars that were millions of light years away. If the earth is only six thousandish years old, light from those stars would not have enough time to reach earth. However, the Bible records God's creation of the stars. He made them for people to be able to record the seasons and years. God determined just the constellations He wanted us to be able to see in our night sky, and probably adjusted their light according to His plan.

[OmegaScales]

Give me reasonable proof that has been tested by others and found to be consistently true, with no holes.

The thing is, every point of data is different. There is no "perfect" answer, only the answer that makes most sense. Some people see things in a different way than anyone else can. Some people will believe whatever crap you throw at them. Some people will decide what's true, while others will discover what's true.

Not to get off topic, but consider this:

"Good" and "Evil" are words humankind has created to establish dominance. In the natural world, there is no "good" or "evil", only life and death.

This is proof of the fact that humankind is "civilized".

Whether or not there is a "God" is not a decision that must be reached, but must be proven or disproved. However, there is not enough proof for either, so we must decide for ourselves. I believe in God not because he is not disproved, nor is he proven, but simply because I want to.

With that off my chest, I understand the need for evidence, and the need for beliefs. Go nuts, folks.

[flamebirde]

Well, one question I had was how we can be able to see light from stars that were millions of light years away. If the earth is only six thousandish years old, light from those stars would not have enough time to reach earth. However, the Bible records God's creation of the stars. He made them for people to be able to record the seasons and years. God determined just the constellations He wanted us to be able to see in our night sky, and probably adjusted their light according to His plan.

Er, yeah, about that, the most widely accepted answer is 4.5ish billion years.

[Kikacat123]

From a Creationist or an evolutionist?

[kestrelknight]

*sigh* Good to be back to the philosophical section of BrainDen. Anyway, I know you've moved on from this topic, but I just want to give some evidence for Creationism.

1) The Universe is winding down. Entropy is increasing. The total amount of energy in the Universe can't change. But, at one point, the total energy in the Universe and the useful energy (that available for work) were equal (the earliest possible date). The Universe had some sort of a beginning. (I hope that made sense...)

2) Huge amounts of energy can't come from nowhere. The Universe needed a 'prime mover', as Aristotle put it.

Granted, Creationism doesn't require the God that Kikacat123 and I believe in, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

I could summarize a book, and prove the Christian God, but... that would take a long time, and probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. I suggest that you try to get hold of a book called "Me, The Professor, Fuzzy & The Meaning of Life" by David Pensgard. It does sound and appear a little childish, but trust me - it isn't. It looks at many possible origins of the Universe, and logically concludes which one is the truth.

[flamebirde]

*sigh* Good to be back to the philosophical section of BrainDen. Anyway, I know you've moved on from this topic, but I just want to give some evidence for Creationism.

1) The Universe is winding down. Entropy is increasing. The total amount of energy in the Universe can't change. But, at one point, the total energy in the Universe and the useful energy (that available for work) were equal (the earliest possible date). The Universe had some sort of a beginning. (I hope that made sense...)

2) Huge amounts of energy can't come from nowhere. The Universe needed a 'prime mover', as Aristotle put it.

Granted, Creationism doesn't require the God that Kikacat123 and I believe in, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

I could summarize a book, and prove the Christian God, but... that would take a long time, and probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. I suggest that you try to get hold of a book called "Me, The Professor, Fuzzy & The Meaning of Life" by David Pensgard. It does sound and appear a little childish, but trust me - it isn't. It looks at many possible origins of the Universe, and logically concludes which one is the truth.

1) Agreed.

2) Sure, it needed a prime mover, but why does that prime mover have to be omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving and conscious?

[Kikacat123]

Do you think there is a supernatural being that just created everything by accident?

[kestrelknight]

*sigh* Good to be back to the philosophical section of BrainDen. Anyway, I know you've moved on from this topic, but I just want to give some evidence for Creationism.

1) The Universe is winding down. Entropy is increasing. The total amount of energy in the Universe can't change. But, at one point, the total energy in the Universe and the useful energy (that available for work) were equal (the earliest possible date). The Universe had some sort of a beginning. (I hope that made sense...)

2) Huge amounts of energy can't come from nowhere. The Universe needed a 'prime mover', as Aristotle put it.

Granted, Creationism doesn't require the God that Kikacat123 and I believe in, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

I could summarize a book, and prove the Christian God, but... that would take a long time, and probably wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. I suggest that you try to get hold of a book called "Me, The Professor, Fuzzy & The Meaning of Life" by David Pensgard. It does sound and appear a little childish, but trust me - it isn't. It looks at many possible origins of the Universe, and logically concludes which one is the truth.

1) Agreed.

2) Sure, it needed a prime mover, but why does that prime mover have to be omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving and conscious?

I said I couldn't prove the Christian God...

[Aaryan]

You people are trying to make sense of something that can make no sense.

KK and...KK(?), what you say is pretty valid. The Creator is out there, as far as humans know, this "thing". We don't and will never know what it is. I don't believe in the "Holy Father", but if that is your interpretation, go ahead.

fb, I also understand your point, but going under the assumption that there was something that instigated the infinite universe, we random carbon-based combinations of electronic signals on a tiny planet next to a medium-sized star in one of billions of galaxies (let me catch my breath) are not going to be able to get it, regardless of how advanced we seem. Let it be known, fb, that I single you out only because you seem to be going on the offensive.

So, my perspective is:

We're not gonna get it. Why worry about it?

[Kikacat123]

If (and since) the Christian God is real, than we will know it. When we die, we will each stand before His throne and be fully aware that He is the one and only God. Having to admit to God that we never knew Him in our earthly life would definitely be something to worry about.

[BMAD]

A famous discussion between two mathematicians on the existence of god, i believe Euler (i could be wrong) was the recipient of such an argument:

other mathematician: what do you say is the probability that god exists?

Euler: I believe 1/1,000,000,000,000,000

other mathematician: well what is the potential benefit from believing in god if you die?

Euler: well if you are right, then i will receive eternal bliss.

Other mathematician: well, if we simply calculate the expected outcome, we have 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 times infinity which means you would have an outcome benefit of infinity. while if God doesn't exist, and one doesn't believe anyways, then there is no lost.

Edited September 1, 2013 by BMAD

[Aaryan]

If (and since) the Christian God is real, than we will know it. When we die, we will each stand before His throne and be fully aware that He is the one and only God. Having to admit to God that we never knew Him in our earthly life would definitely be something to worry about.

I don't see it as the Christian God, nor as the Muslim Allah, nor the Jewish Yahweh, nor as any of other religion's gods. I argue that all interpretations are correct, at least in human terms, and if you believe in the Christian God that's your thing. I don't deny "His" existence, but merely that there are many interpretations of the Creator and I choose not to subscribe to any of them.

If one needs to believe in a specific God to access heaven, the God can't be all that loving. If your argument is that non-believers of God have no moral guidance and are thus unworthy, then that's a mistake. I have a moral compass set by myself and my environment. Christians and all other religions have their own morals as well as the morals they have learned from their religion. As long as one behaves in life a good person, why should their beliefs in an intangible overseer bar them from bliss? Everyone has their own way of thinking, like Christians. I'm fine with that; but religion is like the male genitalia. It's great to have it and it's great to be proud of it, but please don't shove it down my throat.

[flamebirde]

A famous discussion between two mathematicians on the existence of god, i believe Euler (i could be wrong) was the recipient of such an argument:

other mathematician: what do you say is the probability that god exists?

Euler: I believe 1/1,000,000,000,000,000

other mathematician: well what is the potential benefit from believing in god if you die?

Euler: well if you are right, then i will receive eternal bliss.

Other mathematician: well, if we simply calculate the expected outcome, we have 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 times infinity which means you would have an outcome benefit of infinity. while if God doesn't exist, and one doesn't believe anyways, then there is no lost.

I believe you are talking about Pascal's wager. true enough. However, which God is the real God? Sure, it's great to be talking about the numerous benefits of believing in God, but what makes you believe that God is real and not, say, Zeus or Allah or whomever?

@Aaryan: Good point. For me, I just want to find out why others believe in what they do believe in.

[kestrelknight]

Agnosticism Type B, huh? (The belief that there is a god, but that nothing can be known about his/her/its traits, personality, character, etc.) Interesting.

[phaze]

I believe you are talking about Pascal's wager. true enough. However, which God is the real God? Sure, it's great to be talking about the numerous benefits of believing in God, but what makes you believe that God is real and not, say, Zeus or Allah or whomever?

The real god would have to make himself known to man. When all options to communicate with man (via nature and direct inspiration of the prophets) fail what better way to make yourself known than to become that which you had created? How better to claim divinity than to claim that you can forgive man for their offenses against God (Luke 5:20-24). How better psychically demonstrate the veracity of that claim to a doubting audience than to rise from death? And yet as predicted in a story Jesus told many still do not believe (Luke 16:29-31)

[Thalia]

what makes you believe that God is real and not, say, Zeus or Allah or whomever?

Personally, the original reason I believed in God is that an adult told me he existed when I was little and, being little, I took their word. But over time, I've listened to people talk about their experiences with God and seen it with others. I think I've seen Him get me through a lot of stuff the past few years that I don't think I'd have been able to make it through alone. You could say that I got through them because I worked hard, or just because believing in a higher power has some effect psychologically, or that there were coincidences involved, but when I put it all together, those reasons just don't work for me. But if I had to give just one reason that I believe God is real, it would be that He told me so. Audibly.

[Kikacat123]

Just wondering- is there anyone here who is not a Christian, Atheist, or Deist?

[flamebirde]

The real god would have to make himself known to man. When all options to communicate with man (via nature and direct inspiration of the prophets) fail what better way to make yourself known than to become that which you had created? How better to claim divinity than to claim that you can forgive man for their offenses against God (Luke 5:20-24). How better psychically demonstrate the veracity of that claim to a doubting audience than to rise from death? And yet as predicted in a story Jesus told many still do not believe (Luke 16:29-31)

Well, unfortunately I haven't seen it. As I recall, Jesus also said "Though ye not believe me, believe thy works". I would believe the works, if such existed that are unexplainable by any science and are tangible.

what makes you believe that God is real and not, say, Zeus or Allah or whomever?

Personally, the original reason I believed in God is that an adult told me he existed when I was little and, being little, I took their word. But over time, I've listened to people talk about their experiences with God and seen it with others. I think I've seen Him get me through a lot of stuff the past few years that I don't think I'd have been able to make it through alone. You could say that I got through them because I worked hard, or just because believing in a higher power has some effect psychologically, or that there were coincidences involved, but when I put it all together, those reasons just don't work for me. But if I had to give just one reason that I believe God is real, it would be that He told me so. Audibly.

Congrats to you. Sadly, no such revelation has occurred to me.

Just wondering- is there anyone here who is not a Christian, Atheist, or Deist?

I'm technically agnostic, but I lean toward there not being a God. I used to believe in God, but then I started asking others what their reason was to believe in God. They didn't have a good reason, then I realized I didn't have a good reason, and stuff happened from there.

Edited September 5, 2013 by flamebirde

[Thalia]

Sadly, no such revelation has occurred to me.

I don't expect you to believe in God just because I do. That's just the reason I believe in God instead of Allah, Zeus, etc. Something to think about though: you were talking about things being explained by science. Maybe you can explain everything by science. But what makes science work together the way it does? There are all these scientific laws/rules/etc. But they all work together just right so that we exist. Let's say you believe the Big Bang Theory (not saying I don't). There's a giant explosion that creates the universe and everything ends up where it is now. Earth isn't too close to the sun that we burn up or so far that we freeze. The atmosphere is just what we need to breathe. Gravity hasn't crushed us. If you believe in evolution, the first organism/cell/whatever found just the right environment it needed to survive. Then you've got all the "random" mutations it takes to get to us. So you could say that we're having this discussion because all these "random" events and mutations happened by chance. But that is a h*** of a lot of random events/mutations that worked out exactly the way they needed to lead to us. That doesn't prove that God exists. However, I find it difficult to believe that there isn't something out there driving all of that. Maybe you still believe there's no god/creator/being behind our existence. Your choice. I won't try to force God/my beliefs down your throat.

[Aaryan]

Sadly, no such revelation has occurred to me.

I don't expect you to believe in God just because I do. That's just the reason I believe in God instead of Allah, Zeus, etc. Something to think about though: you were talking about things being explained by science. Maybe you can explain everything by science. But what makes science work together the way it does? There are all these scientific laws/rules/etc. But they all work together just right so that we exist. Let's say you believe the Big Bang Theory (not saying I don't). There's a giant explosion that creates the universe and everything ends up where it is now. Earth isn't too close to the sun that we burn up or so far that we freeze. The atmosphere is just what we need to breathe. Gravity hasn't crushed us. If you believe in evolution, the first organism/cell/whatever found just the right environment it needed to survive. Then you've got all the "random" mutations it takes to get to us. So you could say that we're having this discussion because all these "random" events and mutations happened by chance. But that is a h*** of a lot of random events/mutations that worked out exactly the way they needed to lead to us. That doesn't prove that God exists. However, I find it difficult to believe that there isn't something out there driving all of that. Maybe you still believe there's no god/creator/being behind our existence. Your choice. I won't try to force God/my beliefs down your throat.

Obliged. This is the way most religious people should see things.

Evolutionists will argue that since the universe is theoretically infinite, an infinite number of circumstances may happen at any given place. This is entirely possible, but I think there is too much out there, unexplained, for there not to be a driving hand. Now, how beneficial and human-loving this hand is, is where most of religion lies. Trust me, if there was something - an instance of God speaking to me - I would love to throw myself wholeheartedly into religion. Unfortunately, no such event has occurred to me; and I also question everything. Faith is not my strong point, but I respect you and Kika for having it. FB, what you have is cool, too, but don't try to argue with a religious person. They have their own beliefs, you have your own. Neither is provable or disprovable, it's simply a matter of our own individuality giving us either the ability to be strong enough to have faith, or the ability to be strong enough to QUESTION faith.

[phaze]

Well, unfortunately I haven't seen it. As I recall, Jesus also said "Though ye not believe me, believe thy works". I would believe the works, if such existed that are unexplainable by any science and are tangible.

Just so others may understand this quote I have added it from a more modern translation

John 10:38

New International Version

But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

I understand this to mean that Jesus regularly demonstrated who he was by regularly doing miracles. The ultimate one of these was rising from death.

Still even after physically seeing these many still did not believe. Even with all the evidence there still needs to be a commitment of faith.

If you want something that is tangible and yet unexplainable by science consider the miracle of your own awareness.

You might dismiss this as being explained by a chemical reaction that is tricking you into believing you are aware but what is being tricked and what is doing the believing if you are in fact unaware?

You might protest that your awareness in intangible however I contest that it is the only thing that determines if something is tangible or not.

That table you are in front of is only tangible because you are aware of it.

The evidence of there being something more than science explains has been all around you the whole time.

This means that scientific explanations are only what "might" have happened because as demonstrated they do not have all the answers about life.

The ultimate evidence of there being a God is contained in what you believe about Jesus' resurrection.

The greater the evidence you require the greater the faith required because the more you learn the less you know you know.