Beggar

[unreality]

let me start if off with the Beggar I just came up with: (it's an expansion of the 5-day winner idea)

* Beggar - gets 1 gold Phoenix Crown every day. When the Beggar has 5 Phoenix Crowns, he has enough money to pack up and move to the tropics (ie, he wins). However, the Beggar can exchange a Phoenix Crown for 5 role identities, which he can use to his advantage in lynchings and stuff to try to prolong the game. The Beggar can also exchange a Phoenix Crown to kill that night

Edited February 13, 2014 by bonanova

[Guest]

Sorry, a bit of a vent here:

[vent]

I know that UR has already removed the QAs from his roles for Mafia VII, but having played as one now (and not being in the current game anymore <_< ) I would like to share my opinion on the roles.

Reading the description, they seem really interesting, but their win condition is difficult to achieve and as a result, they are basically guaranteed to be one of the more ephemeral characters in the game (since they die when they fail.) As I see it, their secondary objective is probably the hardest win condition of any faction (except for maybe the Mimic. ) So it will be almost impossible to convince enough people to vote for a "random" innocent since it will be difficult to convince people in the course of one day that a particular innocent is really a baddie, (especially since it is almost always known/suspected when the Illusionist/Lord Phoenix/Mutant dies so everyone is expecting it.) In fact, the last couple of games, the character in question (whether intentionally or not) forced the QAs into their secondary objectives by "asking" to be killed. For these reasons, I really don't see them as being a significant asset to the game as they are. It seems like they need some sort of makeover to make them more palatable to me (of course, maybe I'm just sore since I'm apparently a terrible lier and seem to have bad luck. <_< )

If the QAs are kept , I would say that there should be a few changes to the abilities. The Master of Espionage/Electromagnetic enForcer is the strongest member of the faction in regards to achieving their objective (when they bother to keep themselves alive... <_< )so that role may not need changing. The Master of Subterfuge/Gravitational enForcer can be good, but only if the QAs are really lucky (see Mafia IV,) or they survive in game for longer than the third night (I don't think it's ever happened.) I'm not sure how that role can be modified to be more useful. As for the Master of Disguise/Nuclear enForcer, as I see it the ability is practically useless. It only works against the lie-detect ability of one character and usually, by the time someone is going to be lie-detected, his/her role is already suspected so people will know that the lie-detection may fail (especially when they are asking to be lie-detected--see Mekal in Mafia IV of V; I can't remember which. ) What would strengthen that role would be if they could still disrupt the lie-detect, but also could choose a role or faction in their reply when investigated. In that case, the role could be incredibly powerful, but the player would also have to be very careful how they used the ability. If they told the wrong person a role that the person knew for certain, then they might give themselves away. But one of the primary methods that I see for the QAs to win is to keep everyone else as confused as possible and the Spy/Godfather disruption would help with that.

Also, in regards to the voting consensus as it affects the QAs. I would say that the latest rules you have for n-4 or whatever it is would make it even more impossible for the QAs to win their secondary objective (luckily that won't be a problem in Mafia VII,) since the only way that I see for the QAs to succeed, (especially if there is only one of them left,) is if the vote is spread across a number of different targets and the QAs win by a slim plurality. As it is, I've never seen a QA get closer than almost getting someone to consider voting for the victim . I don't see it likely that they could convince enough people to meet the new voting requirements. Of course, without any QAs, that won't be a problem.

Thanks for tolerating my discontent with the QAs (and my own impatience destroying my chance for victory. )

[/vent]

I think I might feel better now...

[grey cells]

This is one of Dawh's special abilities. Incredibly long posts. Yeah! I agree that the secondary mission is near impossible. For example, I for one saw through your mission immediately. Why would you suddenly go for Taliesin, when there's OT and Brandon? Sorry for you, but well played mate.

[unreality]

Yes, I saw the problem with the QAs a bit in MV then noticed more acutely in MVI probably since I was the host. That is when I decided to remove the QAs from the game

[unreality]

btw yesterday I made some changes to the Mercenary role, forgot to post em:

* Mercenary - the Mercenary has been hired to take out a specific person with a lynching. The person, or 'target', is random from the list of all Townsfolk roles. The Mercenary knows the role of the target, and also knows when his/her target has been bitten, if at all. If the Mercenary's target is killed by the Mafia, the Mercenary joins the Mafia, and if the Mercenary's target is killed by the Vigilante, Slayer, or Firework Maker, the Mercenary joins the Townsfolk... ie, the Mercenary can be "bought" by killing their target for them. If the Cypher kills the target, the Mercenary can choose to work for the Mafia OR the Townsfolk OR to be assigned a new lynch target

[Guest]

Yeah there will be no pirate QA's either, so its probably no longer an issue.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Sinistral

[Guest]

This is one of Dawh's special abilities. Incredibly long posts.

hahaha..yeah...still i managed to somehow get one lie detectable statement

[Guest]

This is one of Dawh's special abilities. Incredibly long posts. Yeah! I agree that the secondary mission is near impossible. For example, I for one saw through your mission immediately. Why would you suddenly go for Taliesin, when there's OT and Brandon? Sorry for you, but well played mate.

Thanks, I didn't figure I could trick many people, but I was hoping to get a few behind me.

As for writing long post...sorry if they're a lot to read, but usually when I find something worth saying, it's worth saying well. And rather than just saying "X is Y," I prefer to say "X is Y because of A, B, C,...,W."

If you haven't noticed, logic is my forte.

[grey cells]

Thanks, I didn't figure I could trick many people, but I was hoping to get a few behind me.

As for writing long post...sorry if they're a lot to read, but usually when I find something worth saying, it's worth saying well. And rather than just saying "X is Y," I prefer to say "X is Y because of A, B, C,...,W."

If you haven't noticed, logic is my forte.

I love your long posts. If possible stretch them a bit more.

Yeah! Logic.I know. That's why you and MG were Yakuza.

[grey cells]

hahaha..yeah...still i managed to somehow get one lie detectable statement

Longer the post, higher the possibility of getting a lie-detectable statement.

[Guest]

Longer the post, higher the possibility of getting a lie-detectable statement.

yeah..but it doesn't help if one doesn't has enough time to read long posts

i skimmed thru his posts and thank god got one statement

well done dawh

[unreality]

another thing I don't like is "lie detection", that's why it's not there in Mafia VII

[grey cells]

another thing I don't like is "lie detection", that's why it's not there in Mafia VII

Then there's no SB?

[unreality]

no, check out the Firework Maker. I just don't like the lie-detect aspect of the role. Firework Maker is similar but different than Bomb/SB/etc, with some of the same concepts but different too

[unreality]

here is the Firework Maker (some of the wording has been edited a bit since last rules posting, but basically the same)

* Firework Maker - lives in a house full of explosives and gunpowder. If a killing role or Alpha Werewolf visit, they see the explosive house and may retreat, OR keep going, but with a 1/2 chance of the person being blown up. If it was the Mafia, the Hitman will be killed. If Hitman is already dead, a random living Mafioso is picked instead. If there is no explosion, the Firework Maker is killed or bitten as normal, but if there is an explosion (1/2 chance), there is a 2/3 chance the Firework Maker will die in it as well. During the day, the Firework Maker picks someone. If that person is the Framer, the Framer's frame is not successful, and both the Spy and the Mafia are notified (but not the Firework Maker). The Firework Maker can pick the same person two days in a row if he/she wishes

[grey cells]

I agree. It does not give too much power and this way one mafia role can be identified via the firework maker (indirectly) to the spy. Yeah! A good one.

[Guest]

here is the Firework Maker (some of the wording has been edited a bit since last rules posting, but basically the same)

* Firework Maker - lives in a house full of explosives and gunpowder. If a killing role or Alpha Werewolf visit, they see the explosive house and may retreat, OR keep going, but with a 1/2 chance of the person being blown up. If it was the Mafia, the Hitman will be killed. If Hitman is already dead, a random living Mafioso is picked instead. If there is no explosion, the Firework Maker is killed or bitten as normal, but if there is an explosion (1/2 chance), there is a 2/3 chance the Firework Maker will die in it as well. During the day, the Firework Maker picks someone. If that person is the Framer, the Framer's frame is not successful, and both the Spy and the Mafia are notified (but not the Firework Maker). The Firework Maker can pick the same person two days in a row if he/she wishes

HA! Then the firework maker lived in San Francisco.

When I was living there I heard this loud boom at night and my house shook. Turns out a house 20 blocks up from me was making

FWs. The house blew up totally and left a hole. The other houses around it were quite damaged. One was a total loss.

[Yoruichi-san]

Yeah, I agree with Dawh about the QAs...and personally I thought he did an amazing job under the circumstances ;P

But it seems the Pareto optimal strategy is for the QA target to get him/her/itself killed as soon as possible, which pretty much eliminates the QAs from the game...

I do like having different baddie factions though, it makes it interesting...but maybe they should have more complex goals than just trying to kill a particular person or faction...hmmm...

[Guest]

Yeah, I agree with Dawh about the QAs...and personally I thought he did an amazing job under the circumstances ;P

But it seems the Pareto optimal strategy is for the QA target to get him/her/itself killed as soon as possible, which pretty much eliminates the QAs from the game...

I do like having different baddie factions though, it makes it interesting...but maybe they should have more complex goals than just trying to kill a particular person or faction...hmmm...

Hence the Alpha Werewolf and Cypher...

Both based off of my ideas, BTW (I shouldn't let it go to my head...oh, too late perhaps )

If you want a really weird character, look at the Psychopath (I believe that's the character that Cypher in Mafia VII is based from.) I posted it earlier in this thread and offered a lot of different ways to take the character because I wasn't sure about balance issues or what his (or her) goal should be.

[Brandonb]

here is the Firework Maker (some of the wording has been edited a bit since last rules posting, but basically the same)

* Firework Maker - lives in a house full of explosives and gunpowder. If a killing role or Alpha Werewolf visit, they see the explosive house and may retreat, OR keep going, but with a 1/2 chance of the person being blown up. If it was the Mafia, the Hitman will be killed. If Hitman is already dead, a random living Mafioso is picked instead. If there is no explosion, the Firework Maker is killed or bitten as normal, but if there is an explosion (1/2 chance), there is a 2/3 chance the Firework Maker will die in it as well. During the day, the Firework Maker picks someone. If that person is the Framer, the Framer's frame is not successful, and both the Spy and the Mafia are notified (but not the Firework Maker). The Firework Maker can pick the same person two days in a row if he/she wishes

One thing... the main problem I have always had with the bomb, is that it seems to always live until the end of the game unless a secondary win is accomplished. In my opinion it's terribly discouraging, beyond what is reasonable, to have a 50% chance of the attacker being blown up AND the bomb/FM still living. A kill should be a kill should be a kill unless a saving role is involved. Otherwise the mafia could theoretically throw every single one of them at the bomb, night after night after night, and get blown up every time with the bomb living through it every time. Though it's a very unlikely scenario, it still seems terribly unfair if the FM is able to live through even one killing.

It was OK when the bomb has a chance of living through an explosion when it was used as a method of attack, but not in a killing.

[Guest]

I just thought of something that might make the game a lot more interesting and difficult for the innocents. Sometimes the innocents lose, but people here have been getting much more effective at using their role abilities and the baddies are at a further disadvantage as a result. I know I'm generalizing, but my point is still relevant. The thing is that everyone knows all of the roles that are going to be in the game, so as you learn identities, it becomes a matter of filling in the gaps for the remaining spots. However, we have a lot of different roles floating around and if we tried LIS's one-day mafia thing with fewer people, the ratio of roles to people would be even higher.

Where am I going with this? What if there are certain "guaranteed" roles that will be in the game and then the remaining roles are picked from a pool of other roles? These pooled roles would include some innocents and some independent baddies. So the host announces the "guaranteed" roles and the list of possible roles for the pool. Then, people won't know all of the roles that are in the game necessarily, just which roles could possibly be in the game. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but I think that it would make the game much more dynamic. Of course to do this, you would probably want more experienced players because it could get really confusing for new comers (if it isn't for everyone. )

[Brandonb]

I just thought of something that might make the game a lot more interesting and difficult for the innocents. Sometimes the innocents lose, but people here have been getting much more effective at using their role abilities and the baddies are at a further disadvantage as a result. I know I'm generalizing, but my point is still relevant. The thing is that everyone knows all of the roles that are going to be in the game, so as you learn identities, it becomes a matter of filling in the gaps for the remaining spots. However, we have a lot of different roles floating around and if we tried LIS's one-day mafia thing with fewer people, the ratio of roles to people would be even higher.

Where am I going with this? What if there are certain "guaranteed" roles that will be in the game and then the remaining roles are picked from a pool of other roles? These pooled roles would include some innocents and some independent baddies. So the host announces the "guaranteed" roles and the list of possible roles for the pool. Then, people won't know all of the roles that are in the game necessarily, just which roles could possibly be in the game. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but I think that it would make the game much more dynamic. Of course to do this, you would probably want more experienced players because it could get really confusing for new comers (if it isn't for everyone. )

Wow, that's pretty cool.

I don't think the mafia have ever gotten the primary win in a straight-forward game, this would make it much easier for them.

I do like the idea alot, but I also began to consider what my strategy would be in a game like that. My strategy, and the thing that would make it the most difficult, would be that baddies could easily claim to be innocent roles that were not existent in the game. Therefore, they would be incredibly difficult to weed out. Imagine if the Spy was killed, it would be nearly impossible.

[Guest]

Wow, that's pretty cool.

I don't think the mafia have ever gotten the primary win in a straight-forward game, this would make it much easier for them.

I do like the idea alot, but I also began to consider what my strategy would be in a game like that. My strategy, and the thing that would make it the most difficult, would be that baddies could easily claim to be innocent roles that were not existent in the game. Therefore, they would be incredibly difficult to weed out. Imagine if the Spy was killed, it would be nearly impossible.

That's a good point. I didn't really think that hard about it before I posted it (I was in a bit of a rush,) but it definitely seems like a place where both the Spy and the Inspector would be appropriate. A possible adaptation to the Inspector if there are no QAs (or equivalent) would be that he/she receives the name of Mafia members on odd days and the name of a random innocent on even days. Of course, a baddie would have to be careful which roles they picked and everyone would still know which roles were from the pool, so they should be somewhat mistrustful of anyone claiming to be one of the pool roles until that person proves himself/herself.

Part of the reason I thought of this was because in the last few games that UR has been organizing, he has had a set of roles in mind for the game, with around four that he hadn't decided on initially. I was just thinking about how the game would change if those four roles weren't set in stone. In truth, mixing the roles would help the QAs have a chance at winning if they were still present.

It's just an idea I had and I thought it might be worth discussing, so I posted it here (oddly enough. )

[Yoruichi-san]

That's a good point. I didn't really think that hard about it before I posted it (I was in a bit of a rush,) but it definitely seems like a place where both the Spy and the Inspector would be appropriate. A possible adaptation to the Inspector if there are no QAs (or equivalent) would be that he/she receives the name of Mafia members on odd days and the name of a random innocent on even days. Of course, a baddie would have to be careful which roles they picked and everyone would still know which roles were from the pool, so they should be somewhat mistrustful of anyone claiming to be one of the pool roles until that person proves himself/herself.

Part of the reason I thought of this was because in the last few games that UR has been organizing, he has had a set of roles in mind for the game, with around four that he hadn't decided on initially. I was just thinking about how the game would change if those four roles weren't set in stone. In truth, mixing the roles would help the QAs have a chance at winning if they were still present.

It's just an idea I had and I thought it might be worth discussing, so I posted it here (oddly enough. )

Yeah, I like the idea of adding more randomness...I was actually thinking about that, so that strategies would have to be based on probabilities instead of set logical steps...like quantum physics tells us: the future is probabilistic, not deterministic...;P

[Brandonb]

I've been considering a different role. Some sort of baddie or independent role that provides some sort of consequence to people who come out with their roles. I'm not sure what it would do though. We don't need another innocent discovery role to confirm people who out themselves... maybe if the baddie gets to instantly confirm anyone who claims a role.

It's balanced, b/c the baddie can't come out with the info. Otherwise they would be outing themselves as a baddie. However, it could give the baddie a little bit of an advantage.

Maybe the GR could have the ability. Or a role similar to the Mimic in M4F14.

Maybe a different consequence altogether... I dunno.

[Guest]

I just thought of something that might make the game a lot more interesting and difficult for the innocents. Sometimes the innocents lose, but people here have been getting much more effective at using their role abilities and the baddies are at a further disadvantage as a result. I know I'm generalizing, but my point is still relevant. The thing is that everyone knows all of the roles that are going to be in the game, so as you learn identities, it becomes a matter of filling in the gaps for the remaining spots. However, we have a lot of different roles floating around and if we tried LIS's one-day mafia thing with fewer people, the ratio of roles to people would be even higher.

Where am I going with this? What if there are certain "guaranteed" roles that will be in the game and then the remaining roles are picked from a pool of other roles? These pooled roles would include some innocents and some independent baddies. So the host announces the "guaranteed" roles and the list of possible roles for the pool. Then, people won't know all of the roles that are in the game necessarily, just which roles could possibly be in the game. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but I think that it would make the game much more dynamic. Of course to do this, you would probably want more experienced players because it could get really confusing for new comers (if it isn't for everyone. )

I've seen Mafia variants that use this kind of method before, and it does add a certain unknown factor into the mix. Usually the ratio of mafia to innocents is decreased a little if this method is used, since it makes things much easier for the Mafia side. You'd have to make it known which roles have a fixed number, and which ones there are a random amount of.

Another factor which makes it harder to play a baddie here on BD is the fact that all of our roles are unique, and we don't have any traditional "vanilla" roles. What I mean by this is that your typical mafia setups are usually something like:

3 Mafia

5 Villagers

1 Cop/Inspector

1 Doctor/Healer

There's a plain regular vanilla "innocent" role, which has no ability other than to just vote during the day. Usually in mafia games there are in fact more than one of these. Its really easy for one of the mafia to claim just being a plain old villager when there are 5 such roles out there. Its difficult to disprove unless 5 others come forward and counter-claim, and even then, how do you pick the correct one out of 6 people claiming that role?

I'm not saying we should go in this direction though, I like the fact that we have so many unique roles. Its much more fun when every role has some kind of unique aspect to it, but I can see why it would be hard to play a baddie under these circumstances. I was trying to balance it out with the "Graverobber" type character, which would essentially introduce the chance of there being more than one of the same role to allow for more possibilities. I think the Mimic and Copycat type roles help this as well, but there are some balancing issues involved there.