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Unreality: Oh, I agree. Agnosticism applies in MANY situations involving the big questions (other instances too, I'm sure, but that's where I mostly see it.) UtF: Skepticism pwns =) Go socrates But I, too, am pretty sure that donkeys don't have the type of advanced philosophical thoughts we do. think about it: Every organisms 'thought' process (brain or not) is automatically set to survival mode. Philosophical ideas, religions- these things are not directly geared toward helping your survival, so I doubt that most organisms would have that (Then again, trees may have already figured out the secret too the universe... =)). Humans, and any other advanced life forms in this universe, would most likely have to have conquered their survival needs, as many great thinkers have, before looking at the big questions (just learned about this in health... some guy and a pyramid, right? Of needs?). I'm sure that if you ask an extremely poor african farmer what they thought of big philosophical concepts, you would get many weird looks as an answer. They are focused on survival (don't want to stereotype here, just an example...). See what I mean? Why should a donkey worry about those things? That's why i assumed donkeys don't have philosophical thoughts. Then again, you know what they say about assumptions: They make an 'a**' out of 'u' and 'me.'

You know what? I don't think you can really ever know. I've never seen anyone finish such a journey, but it might be possible. Raplace what I originally said with an if in there. That's better, no?

EDIT: Before replying, see the post after this. OK, maybe saying "that's what makes us human" was a bad way to put it. I meant it the way UtF said it: Humans "search" as a result of being human. That's what I meant. Sorry about that =) But I still think that some people can finally find what their searching for spiritually, find that mix of philosophy and ideas that is really what they were looking for all along. No one knows what this is; no one knows if they will find it. They might not even know when it happens. But it is possible, and that's when the bittersweet thing happens. (It doesn't mean, however, that you should stop learning about everything else, or even abput philosophy and such. Put that brain we we're talking about to use =) There is NEVER an excus to not learn something EVERY DAY, unless you are menatlly or physically unable to do so. And plus, what you think may be the end might not be; you simply gave up too early. But I never meant stop learning; there is simply too much to learn about, too many ideas that challenge yours. Heck, this site alone gives me something new each day =))

Tiger: Oh, the second one. Things like the ten commandments... they create structure, but they make morals. Saying "This is it, nothing else," that's what I can't stand. And yeah, arguing has no point. Noone will change their mind because of one argument =) Unreality: Yes. That's it. The fact that we search for such things... that's what makes us human. You don't see spiritual donkeys, now do you? =) The search is great, but once you find it, it's a bittersweet moment. Bitter because the search is over, a major chapter of your life is over, but sweet because you have finally found what you're looking for, whatever it is. "There's nothing to search for - it's the search itself that matters." I'm using that. it's quite epic. =)

I think the quote in your signature says it best. I've actually looked at the ideas of Jainism/Buddhism/Hinduism (not the polytheistic part the karma/ reincarnation part), so yeah, I guess I'll find something. I just hate the idea of organized religion. I have my beliefs, and i don't need a certain structure to them. And I thought Presbyterians were extreme, like Baptists. Am I wrong?

Beat me to it Molly =) Great riddle.

Unreality: Yes, I know about its contradictions. I never said it was a history book =) And I meant the good morals. You know, don't kill, don't steal, etc. As I said earlier, i have thought about the possibility of all of them being true. it seems highly unlikely to me. Open-mindedness is always nice =) I know religion gets you when you're most vulnerable, but I think the real reason for this is it's promise of love, justice, community, adn acceptance. Is this good? For some, maybe. Others, yeah, probably not. If in order to find converts you have to go to a place with no hope at all, it's not a very good religion, is it? Of course, this is what I meant: there are people who have noone else, like the poor of Africa, who finally find something in this idea of 'religion.' Well, spirituality is not a human invention persay the way religion is. It's just a feeling inside of you, probably because of humanities needs to find things that cannot be known (i.e. life after death, etc.). It need not have a god, since I would describe Jainists as spiritual, and they have no god. It's quite hard to describe. I say it's this: the idea of connection to the universe around you through some seperate plane of existence, as well as connection to this other plane of existence, with or without structure. Something that helps you understand things you cannot, answers those questions that cannot logically be answered otherwise. You can have spirituality without religion, but you can only have reigion with spirituality. Makes sense? Or no?

No prob. =) Have a good night =)

UtF: Oh yeah. I remember you =) Well, what I meant by poo is, yeah, the morals are great, and sure, some events are historically accurate, but most of it's crap. (Well, i mean, most of the "events" in the bible are in the old testament so... guess that didn't change much..) I'm a freshman in high school actually, and have never been very religious. These debates have, indeed, made me question... that, and the fact that science has always beaten religion in giving me answers and explanations and truth (for me). But yes, these debates made me think (gotta thank Izzy for that one =)). I realized that, well, what i thought was very different from what i was 'supposed' to believe. I was always a very sciece person, and over tiime, I just stopped finding room for a divine character. I still think he may be there, but I see no use for him, and no evidence. I've also been reading up on religions and ideas lately. I realized that agnosticism (and i mean true agnosticism... I made sound almost atheist, but I really just don't know. Or care.) I've noticed many connections between many religions... tons of flood stories (greek, mesopotamian, judeo-christian, etc.), very similar creation stories, the fact that signs of religion were limited in early humans... it either meant that everythign's true and we just don't realize, or none is true (I HIGHLY doubt it's just one and nothing else), and as a rational person, I went with the former. However, just because no religion is pure fact doesn't mean there can't be a god. I just don't see any true support either way. So, yeah, agnostic. I kinda babbled there a little (It's quite late =)), but I think I was clear enough. It happened gradually. Can I switch later? Well, sure. A neuatral person can switch at any time. The way I see it, religion (not spirituality, two completely seperate things in my book) is good as a spport/social system, as you pointed out. It gives you a very family type setting, which is good for people who are down, lonely, etc. The morals too are good. Once you start going on a homophobic, xenophobic, islamophobic, etc, rage, well, then religion becomes a disease. I am still spiritual in a sense. I believe in karma, though I question the afterlife. I like the idea of reincarnation, though I still wonder about it. Etc. And by me, I've seen such switches happen a lot. My english teacher was Catholic (much like me) and is now agnostic. A jewish (by nationality and religion) friend of mine became agnostic then atheist very rapidly (he pissed off his family by refusing to have a barmitzfa or light the menorah. I could never do that =)). Once you question, it's hard to keep accepting it on anything other than faith alone. So yeah. That's what happened. =) Funny how things change in two seasons, huh? =)

Glad =) Thing is, since then, I've changed my views a little, more to "I see no need for him, no evidence, so I'm agnostic." Bible is kinda... well... poo. Jesus, then, isn't the Son of God, and IF God is even real, he is extremely out of the equation, more like a watcher (deist like =)) I know, kind of a big change, but meh. I just sorta say I'm agnostic/atheist to anyone who asks, and I just say "Who cares? Why bother?" But glad to know I was at least a little sensible then =)

I think I get it. The little blurb about opposing heliocentric theories helped (towards the side). But if it's true, than why does physics always seem so complex? Or am I really not getting it? Edit: Of course, this is coming from someone who will only be taking basic physics in school about 3-4 years from now, so... =)

What is Occam's Razor exactly? I've never heard of it.

That just hurt my brain :huh: :wacko:

How's about:

Omega: That sounds like me a little =) Octo: Actually, if such a message appeared, I would probably laugh =) Why? I dunno. I just have a feeling i would. =)

Izzy:: I know. I was asking the others why they felt the way they did. i know you agree with me =)

Understood. =)

Gotcha.

I don't understand... how does proving raandomness also prove free will? If everything is random, then we still have no control, no? Things just "happen."

Huh... Pretty cool! =)

reel