[Guest]

Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.)

[wolfgang]

Dear ADparker....I was not talking to you....and I am not asking you to believe me...

But try to tell me only ONE thing which makes you better than an animal...

all what you can do....the animal can do the same....

only one thing can make a HUMAN above the ANIMAL,is the Possession of the spirit of faith...

Do you have such a spirit?.....or you want to live and die like an........,,,its up to you !!!

Healthy people don`t need a doctor !

You can concider me as an old crazy man,but you can do like I did 40 years ago, I asked myself (at that time):

If I can see a house,so,there should be someone who built it...If I know who did that, I can call him by his name,

but if I don`t know who did that....I`ll say...it was done by (someone).that was a simple example,,what about our existence?...Nature...big bang...explosion...evolution...etc.........

still no exact answer....let us say, done by (X factor)....we can call this factor (GOD)untill we can proove something else....so we creat (god) to reach the stability,and to bind the missing link.

Our knowledge is limited to our three dimentions,what if we where living in only two dimentions?,,then we could see only the drawings around us and we could swear that we are able to see (everything) around us!

is it TRUE?....NO....cause there is another dimention which is beyond our immaginations and our knowledge.

what if there is another dimention?or dimentions...?

Finally...I did believe in GOD, hope you can accept him also(as your guest),,,,at least!.

Sorry if I was tough.

Edited February 11, 2011 by wolfgang

[Quag]

If I can see a house,so,there should be someone who built it...If I know who did that, I can call him by his name,

but if I don`t know who did that....I`ll say...it was done by (someone).that was a simple example,,what about our existence?...Nature...big bang...explosion...evolution...etc.........

still no exact answer....let us say, done by (X factor)....we can call this factor (GOD)untill we can proove something else....so we creat (god) to reach the stability,and to bind the missing link.

hmm good sound thinking... almost. Heres the problem: Who created god?

If the universe had to be created by god because just coming into existence or always existing makes no sense, why would god not have to be created?

The arguement that god has to exist to create the universe makes no sense. You are just adding a step.

the bit about there being another dimension is what you believe. could be true could be false either way doenst prove or disprove gods existence.

I do not know if god exists, though I do not believe jesus was anything other than a man. However belief and knowledge are 2 different things. you may believe something so strongly that you are convinced it is true. (un)fortunately that doesn't make it so. There are many many religions in the world and millions of people who feel at least as strongly as you do that their religious beliefs are the right ones and that you are delusional. Their beliefs are no more proof of their religions than are yours.

Not trying to be hard on you either. Believe whatever you believe, that is what living in a free society is about.

[peace*out]

To believe in God,is like having an army,to defend yourself against the invaders.

Our enimies are increasing in number day by day!!

They have NO mercy,,,they know NO compassion,,,they will destroy our body...if there is NO god inside it...

just like cancer cells,who multiply very fast and kill the body...specially the one with NO immunity.

Immune your spirit,immune your self,immune your body....be ready all the time,cause you don`t know when will your enemy begin to take his first attack !!,,,at that time,it will be too late to unbelievers...

Believe me...I am 57 years old...I have alot of experience in this life...I was (some day)also unbeliever...till I saw him talking to me...face to face...he convinced me..he took me back to him...I am now full of love to my GOD...

I love Jesus !!

man...

i was talking to the devil yesterday (were besties) and while we massacred millions of innocent people, we talked about how we were hurt by this. No Mercy? No compassion? I disagree. Later, when we were drinking the humans blood, we talked about what we can do to change this. Anyone have ideas? the devil and i are going to light a forest on fire in a week, and we both promised to bring some ideas to the marshmallow roasting.

[unreality]

Dear ADparker....I was not talking to you....and I am not asking you to believe me...

But try to tell me only ONE thing which makes you better than an animal...

all what you can do....the animal can do the same....

only one thing can make a HUMAN above the ANIMAL,is the Possession of the spirit of faith...

Do you have such a spirit?.....or you want to live and die like an........,,,its up to you !!!

Why are you so afraid to accept the truth that humans (Homo sapiens) ARE animals? We are a species of the kingdom Animalia. We're animals. We're biological lifeforms that live, eat and die on Earth. Get over it. It's not that big of a deal. Are you so afraid of death/anonymity that you don't want to accept humanity's insignificance in the grander scheme of things?

[Guest]

Dear ADparker....I was not talking to you....

and I am not asking you to believe me...

Well...that was rather insulting. You made an undirected post on an open forum, as a member of that forum, yes in a way you WERE talking to me.

Um okay. I don't see the point in you posting that then.

(Sorry for the formatting, but this silly forum limits the number of quotes allowed per post - each section of mine is a response to each line of yours, as I formatted them in the quote boxes.)

But try to tell me only ONE thing which makes you better than an animal...

all what you can do....the animal can do the same....

Complex Question logical fallacy.

I (just like you, and every other member of our species, genus, family, class, phyla and Kingdom) am an animal.

I'm an animal and I'm proud! (and you should be too!)

Sorry wolfgang (like your avatar by the way) but it is not I, but far too many Christians (etc. but this is the "Christian Discussion" thread,) who have the overwhelming DESIRE to feel special, better, superior, to every living thing but their own 'special' species.

Well no. Some of them can do the same. Some can't do some things we can, some can do things we can't. And even in those things that we 'both' can do; we do some things better than some, or all other animals, and there are some things other species can do better than us.

isn't nature and the diversity of grand?

only one thing can make a HUMAN above the ANIMAL,is the Possession of the spirit of faith...

Do you have such a spirit?.....

or you want to live and die like an........,,,its up to you !!!

Really?!

You think the ability to believe things with absolute conviction, through the (wilful) abandonment of reason, it what makes us so freakin' superior?!

I don't feel the need, and don't believe that I am Superior. Certainly not intrinsically superior. This ladder of life, with humans "above" all others, is nothing but egocentric wishful thinking. Get over yourself.

First off I would have to guess what you even mean buy that word "spirit", but failing that I would have to say no, no I don't. I actually value reason.

That sentence makes no sense. And is also an appeal to emotion.

What I may want has no bearing on what is actually factually true.

Healthy people don`t need a doctor !

Having been an army medic for a number of years, I know that isn't entirely true. It has nothing to do with anything anyway.

You can concider me as an old crazy man,but you can do like I did 40 years ago, I asked myself (at that time):

If I can see a house,so,there should be someone who built it...If I know who did that, I can call him by his name,

but if I don`t know who did that....I`ll say...it was done by (someone).

Wow! That is like that inane Ray Comfort bollocks right there! It is so incredibly stupid. Seriously?!

You are simply mistaken on your assumption of how design is inferred from what we experience.

We can be fairly certain that a house was built and designed by someone (or many someones of course) not due to its complexity or anything, but due to our past experiences that have informed us on how such things come to be. We know that houses are man made objects, because we know how they are built (to a certain extent), of builders and architects and so on.

that was a simple example,,what about our existence?...Nature...big bang...explosion...evolution...etc.........

still no exact answer....let us say, done by (X factor)....we can call this factor (GOD)untill we can proove something else....

Do you actually think in this fashion? It is awfully muddled.

Why on earth should anyone choose to call this unknown, this lack of an answer "God"?! A word that carries oh so much baggage?! Unless of course it is your intent to reach a pre-established desired conclusion?

so we creat (god) to reach the stability,and to bind the missing link.

Our knowledge is limited to our three dimentions,what if we where living in only two dimentions?,,then we could see only the drawings around us and we could swear that we are able to see (everything) around us!

What ARE you talking about?!

is it TRUE?....NO....cause there is another dimention which is beyond our immaginations and our knowledge.

what if there is another dimention?or dimentions...?

Superstring theory (or M theory) postulates the existence of 11 dimensions (including the known three spacial ones, and that of time.) They aren't "another reality", another place, as you seem to imply here. This is an all too common confusion; the misapplication of the word "dimension" in two different ways.

Finally...I did believe in GOD,

hope you can accept him also(as your guest),,,,at least!.

Sorry if I was tough.

Not surprising if you started by assuming that every unknown, every thing you couldn't explain, as caused by an unknown that you labelled "God."

This is sometimes known as Explaining a mystery WITH a mystery.

Its a non-answer.

I only accept thing based on good reason. Sorry.

Tough? No.

Largely incoherent, yes.

[gvg]

I just want to comment on one thing:

If I can see a house,so,there should be someone who built it...If I know who did that, I can call him by his name,

but if I don`t know who did that....I`ll say...it was done by (someone).

In 'God: The Failed Hypothesis' (Great book by the way), the author discusses that it has been proven through a number of methods that, in nature, simplicity (in this case, the supposed "nothing" before the Big Bang") automatically and naturally, without the need of a divine being, goes to complexity.

A great example he gave: Think about a snowflake. In order to get that snowflake to become a liquid water droplet (which we can agree is simpler than a snowflake's structure) you have to add energy into it, not remove something. Simplicity becomes complexity; something is more stable than nothing.

Just thought I'd point that out

Edited February 12, 2011 by gvg

[wolfgang]

I can not do better than this

[Quag]

I can not do better than this

Well if that is the best anyone can do to prove god, then I think you have proven that Agnosticism is the only way to go! welcome aboard Wolfie

[wolfgang]

Well if that is the best anyone can do to prove god, then I think you have proven that Agnosticism is the only way to go! welcome aboard Wolfie

[wolfgang]

[gvg]

I just said that it's been shown that nothing can come from something. In fact, the actual probablility is 60%. So, there ya go.

I am of the mindset that it is quite possible that we are simply in the midst of one of a unending cycle of big bangs. In fact, scientists have found evidence of universes that existed before ours. So in that way, the universe is, indeed, eternal.

[peace*out]

I'm 21 seconds into this, and i already spot a flaw.

"Where did god come from? he always existed"

many religous people claim that everything has to have a beggining. that steven hawking is crazy because physics show that something CAN come from nothing. that we're crazy when we talk about the big bang as if it acually happened (gasp!).

but then we ask about where god came from. simple enough. but no: god ALWAYS existed. he MADE the world. and people of religion think WE'RE the idiots when we challenge that.

So wolfgang: if you refuse to believe that something (anything...including god) couldnt come from nothing, where did god come from?

EDIT: "if he always existed, he didnt come from anywhere (on screen: Duh!)"

...this makes me sad.

EDIT #2: i posted a comment. it said it was pending approval. this explains why all the comments are pro religion. Now im asking ANYONE to reply...since i feel the video wont let me share my opinions on it there...

Edited March 5, 2011 by peace*out

[Quag]

Wolfie,

sorry but that guy is soooooo sooooo sooooo looney it is laughable.

He claims he is using logic but it reminds me a bit of Platos Republic. He presents two alternatives and states there can be no others.

Why can there be no others???

because he said so???

or because his limited brain can only concieve of 2??

or perhaps his arguements for god can only exist of there is only 2 options therefore he discounts any others.

even with the two options he gives, his logic is fallacious.

again i will state what i said before

If the universe HAD to be created by god then who created god.he doesnt even come close to explaining that the universe could not have always been.

he states that god by definition always was. again this is wrong. he is making up the arguements and definitons on both sides!

I say by definition god was created by man!

now that i have defined that, you cannot under any use of logic come up with another conclusion than that god is false.

Now i know you will disagree with that statement but this loon is doing the exact same thing in reverse.

I will say it again ther is No proof of gods existence. In fact the evidence against (i'm refering to a specific religious belief not a general concept of god, ie christianity vs deism) is much stronger than it is for.

[Guest]

I can not do better than this

That Lee Strobel rubbish. That's the best you can do? A bold admission my friend. If that is your best then you have nothing, sorry.

What's this, your second best? If your best fails, what good is your second best?

But what do we have; VenomfangX?! Oh that's just sad.

Nope, sorry. Do YOU actually have any reason to believe in this god? Why do YOU believe? And does that provide any reason why anyone else should?

Arguing by doing nothing but posting links to others is cheap and a waste of time.

How about you make a case (based on one of those in the videos if you wish) and perhaps an actual discussion could begin?

Because this method of preaching at people, by proxy though video links, does not impress the rationally inclined.

Edited March 5, 2011 by ADParker

[Guest]

I've been following this thread for a while, and I've seen many others like it on the internet. The end result is always the same: Nothing is accomplished. You will never be moved by anything I say and I will never be convinced by anything you say. I have yet to see anyone change their opinion because of a "debate" like this.

My own philosophy is that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved. It's not the rational part of the brain that God appeals to, but the emotional. Pretty much the only way either of us will change our opinions would be through a very emotional event in our personal life. It may happen to you, or it may not.

The only way to win this argument for my side (the existence of God) would be to witness Him after I die. The only way to prove it for yours would be to not witness anything after your death.

[andromeda]

I've been following this thread for a while, and I've seen many others like it on the internet. The end result is always the same: Nothing is accomplished.

That's not true, it's a good exercise for the brain.

Atheists are practicing how to think and make reasonable arguments and theists are practicing how to ignore those arguments.

It's not the rational part of the brain that God appeals to, but the emotional.

I disagree. The only reason that religion/gods was/were created was because people needed an explanation about things that they couldn't understand.

Example: It was a bad harvest season, God(s) are angry and we need to crack someone's skull in order to ingratiate ourselves with the God(s).

That's how people rationalized things back in the days. Now we have Science and we know about climate and that everything is connected through cause and effect.

The only way to win this argument for my side (the existence of God) would be to witness Him after I die.

I'm not that gullible

EDIT: Stupid grammar

Edited March 6, 2011 by andromeda

[Guest]

My own philosophy is that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved.

That may well be the case. Unless:

1. "God" is properly defined, to have attributes that can be tested, looked for. (e.g. intercessory prayer works in this way - tested, not true. So a God which makes it work does not exist.)

2. This god actually bothers to make even the slightest effort to establish its existence. Which should be a trivial task.

It's not the rational part of the brain that God appeals to, but the emotional.

This is nothing but an empty blanket assertion of course.

But it does point to one well documented thing; The religion (not the claimed god) of Christianity (and other religions, but they are beyond the scope of this thread) is primarily about appealing to emotion, not reason.

Pretty much the only way either of us will change our opinions would be through a very emotional event in our personal life.

That may change some peoples minds. It shouldn't though, as that would only be evidence of ones emotions, feelings, not any reality behind it.

Another, far superior way of changing minds would be for this god (supposedly "all powerful" and knowing etc.) could simply be to reveal himself. A ridiculously simple task one would think. The absence of such evidence is itself rather telling.

It may happen to you, or it may not.

In other words, you are saying that I SHOULD NOT believe this stuff, until God chooses to get of his get off his omnipotent arse and prove his own existence to me. So it is God's fault that I don't believe...but he will punish me for that anyway. Hmm.

The only way to win this argument for my side (the existence of God) would be to witness Him after I die. The only way to prove it for yours would be to not witness anything after your death.

Only if you admit that there is no evidence for this claim to be found. Which leads to the conclusion that anyone that believes, without these claimed personal revelations - which provide nothing to anyone else, is a fool.

[Quag]

My own philosophy is that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved.

I agree with this statement. However this thread and the others like it, on this forum at least, are started by people trying to PROVE god's existence. They have yet to come up with 1 single thing that even comes close to that however.

ADParker: ref wolfies links to Utube, personally i think they are great. If anyone is not already in agreement with the conclusions and they use their brain to listen to the "arguemnts" they will realize how increadibly wrong they are. It isnt even a question of oh yeah that kinda makes sense. Like I said before first link reconfirmed me as an agnostic (not the point he was trying to get across) second link was just so bad

it made me laugh. So i say keep adding the links they amuse me.

Wolfie: if you believe in god thats fine your choice. but don't let it be because some cheesy video made you believe.

Andromeda: actually thiests are trying to use logic based on a false or unproven premise to support that premise, it is a good exercise in logic but only till you go back to the beggining and see the inherent error in the original premise

Everyone: please read Platos Repulic. It is a masterpiece of comming to logical conclusions from false premises. Terrible book actually but the way it is written is fascinating.

[Guest]

ADParker: ref wolfies links to Utube, personally i think they are great.

Sure, and I have no problems with providing such links - even if, as in this case, I have already seen them all - but not if that is all that they provide, that I have a problem with. Primarily because there is nothing to respond to, nothing from the one who made the post at all.

[wolfgang]

I'm 21 seconds into this, and i already spot a flaw.

"Where did god come from? he always existed"

many religous people claim that everything has to have a beggining. that steven hawking is crazy because physics show that something CAN come from nothing. that we're crazy when we talk about the big bang as if it acually happened (gasp!).

but then we ask about where god came from. simple enough. but no: god ALWAYS existed. he MADE the world. and people of religion think WE'RE the idiots when we challenge that.

So wolfgang: if you refuse to believe that something (anything...including god) couldnt come from nothing, where did god come from?

EDIT: "if he always existed, he didnt come from anywhere (on screen: Duh!)"

...this makes me sad.

EDIT #2: i posted a comment. it said it was pending approval. this explains why all the comments are pro religion. Now im asking ANYONE to reply...since i feel the video wont let me share my opinions on it there...

I said before....and I`ll say it again now....We created the God in order to explain what can not explain it till now.

and whoever says,there is No god....he should proove it.

[wolfgang]

God.....is Love....

anyone who didn`t get love from his family,his relatives or his friends....will have NO god at all!!

Love is like a very small seed,grows in our bodies with us...untill it become a very pig tree,,,

First of all ...look for love...search it...it may be close to you,,closer to you than your own skin !

God teached me to love you,,,all of you,,,God tells me to do all what is good ..he is always with us as long as we are able to think and to love.

No one is obliged to believe in God...but we are in a great need to love each other.

And if we do....we will come closer and closer to meet him.

I will leave you in god`s love.......forever.

[peace*out]

I said before....and I`ll say it again now....We created the God in order to explain what can not explain it till now.

and whoever says,there is No god....he should proove it.

It's WAYYYY easier to prove that theres a scarf in the room, than the fact there isnt. If you see a scarf, you say, "Hey - theres a scarf!" but if you dont see it, you cant say, theres absolutly no scarf. you have to look for it. you have to see if you can find it. Thats what scientists are trying to do. they're LOOKING for a god - or a way they can say, absolutly no god. Its easier said then done. However, we have science on our side. evolution. things that contradict what the bible, quran, or anything else has said. Thats why we look to you. You're placing all of it on us. "Well PROVE that theres no god!" thats what we're trying to do. Now im asking you: PROVE theres a scarf in the room. if you can bring me the scarf, i will say, ok, thats a scarf. All your doing is saying that theres a scarf in the room, but i see nothing. bring me the scarf wolfgang. I cant see it.

God.....is Love....

anyone who didn`t get love from his family,his relatives or his friends....will have NO god at all!!

Love is like a very small seed,grows in our bodies with us...untill it become a very pig tree,,,

First of all ...look for love...search it...it may be close to you,,closer to you than your own skin !

God teached me to love you,,,all of you,,,God tells me to do all what is good ..he is always with us as long as we are able to think and to love.

No one is obliged to believe in God...but we are in a great need to love each other.

And if we do....we will come closer and closer to meet him.

I will leave you in god`s love.......forever.

You're saying i have had no love?

Ive had a lot. my church is small, and all of the community supports each other. Yes, for those who didnt know, when im at home i still go to church. I go for the community. for the people.

My parents support me a lot, as well as the rest of my family. Friends...we all support and "love" each other.

Plus, your argument has no evidence. Personaly, you could say someone who thinks god IS love, may be without love themselves, and searches for a higher being to love them. Now, im not saying ALL people are like that. Im saying those who believe that god IS love, and that love CANNOT exist without god.

Now, you may be a little mad about what i just said. but it is just as factual (maybe more - i provided a possible reason of why) as your argument.

Tell me if im wrong/WHY. Ok ok, ive heard you say it a gazillion times. god/jesus/holy spirt is love. now tell me WHY.

[peace*out]

Also: did Izzy create the flying spagetti monster/where did the phrase "FSM" come from??

I like this video also:

Oh, and the dragon in the garage thing: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

Edited March 6, 2011 by peace*out

[Guest]

That's not true, it's a good exercise for the brain.

Atheists are practicing how to think and make reasonable arguments and theists are practicing how to ignore those arguments.

That's not a logical argument. On a side note, I am surprised by the presence of so many ad hominem attacks in this thread.

I disagree. The only reason that religion/gods was/were created was because people needed an explanation about things that they couldn't understand.

Example: It was a bad harvest season, God(s) are angry and we need to crack someone's skull in order to ingratiate ourselves with the God(s).

That's how people rationalized things back in the days. Now we have Science and we know about climate and that everything is connected through cause and effect.

I disagree. Since my side is the one making the premise, it can define "God" however it wants. I should also say that I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim.

I'm not that gullible

It's true. Both of us are so stubborn that that is really the only way to decisively prove anything.

That may well be the case. Unless:

1. "God" is properly defined, to have attributes that can be tested, looked for. (e.g. intercessory prayer works in this way - tested, not true. So a God which makes it work does not exist.)

2. This god actually bothers to make even the slightest effort to establish its existence. Which should be a trivial task.

First of all, since I am not Christian, my perception of God may be different.

The Islamic view is that the whole point of our creation is to seek God in our lives. He is capable of revealing himself, but that would just defeat the purpose.

That may change some peoples minds. It shouldn't though, as that would only be evidence of ones emotions, feelings, not any reality behind it.

Another, far superior way of changing minds would be for this god (supposedly "all powerful" and knowing etc.) could simply be to reveal himself. A ridiculously simple task one would think. The absence of such evidence is itself rather telling.

See above.

In other words, you are saying that I SHOULD NOT believe this stuff, until God chooses to get of his get off his omnipotent arse and prove his own existence to me. So it is God's fault that I don't believe...but he will punish me for that anyway. Hmm.

I'm saying that you WILL NOT ever believe this stuff no matter how much anybody tries, based on past experience and the fact that anyone who goes out of his way to argue with people who doesn't share his views usually holds his belief too tightly.

I use "he" to mean "he/she".

[peace*out]

I've been following this thread for a while, and I've seen many others like it on the internet. The end result is always the same: Nothing is accomplished. You will never be moved by anything I say and I will never be convinced by anything you say.

...i acually became agnostic because of BD.

Christian --> Atheist --> Agnostic

nothing acomplished?