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Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.) :rolleyes:

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Sorry...one more post for now :blush:

I was watching wolfgang's first video he posted ("i cant do better than this," or something like that), and realized something.

One of the main points in a thiest's argument is that something cant come from nothing. Even if we dismiss that whole "then how did god come to be" and all the answers that come with it, how did GOD make something from nothing. Was he made up of the earth? Did he put it together? Did he magically make everything appear (which you claim cannot happen)? Even Hermione in Harry Potter knows you cant do that you cant make everything from nothing! http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gamp's_Law_of_Elemental_Transfiguration

So I'm curious: did god take everything from himself (in which case he IS the universe, and so the universe created itself, or did he just make things appear along side him (ill take some eggs, some sugar...Oh! cant forget the milk...). If so...that was created from nothing.

did i miss something?

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Just saying, I too changed my views because of this. Over the summer of 2010. great Summer =)

Catholic-> Agnostic-> agnostic atheist

And Peace: You're right, it's a very problem filled and contradictory argument. Very easy to show it, too.

Edited by gvg

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I said before....and I`ll say it again now....We created the God in order to explain what can not explain it till now.

That does seem to be the case yes. God (The Christian character) is clearly a re-imaging of YHWH, who is in turn (evidence strongly suggests) based on some of the gods of the earlier Canaanite pantheon of gods. And those gods like all others as imaginative 'explanations' for poorly understood phenomenon.

and whoever says,there is No god....he should proove it.

Your are contradicting yourself. You just said God was "created", made up. Made-up things don't actually exist in any real sense.

And no; anyone who claims that God (or anything else) has the burden of proof. Those who positively claim that it does not exist do share a certain degree of a burden as well, but to a certain degree non-acceptance is a reasonable default.

Most rational atheists don't claim that there are no gods anyway, but simply that they don't accept your claim that any of them do.

________________________________

God.....is Love....

Contradicting your last...again.

And we already have a word for love....Love. Whay muddy the waters by calling that "God", which carries oh so much extra baggage?!

But okay let's accept that word substitution, and see where it gets us

anyone who didn`t get love from his family,his relatives or his friends....will have NO god at all!!

anyone who didn`t get love from his family,his relatives or his friends....will have NO god LOVE at all!!

Congratulations, you just created a tautology.

God teached me to love you,,,all of you,,,God tells me to do all what is good ..he is always with us as long as we are able to think and to love.

God LOVE teached me to love you,,,all of you,,,God LOVE tells me to do all what is good ..he is always with us as long as we are able to think and to love GOD.

Well that certainly makes no sense whatsoever. As expected the baggage that came with the word allowed your claimed "God is love" refer to "God" as a BEING that can teach love and ethics. So clearly you don't think that God is love at all, but some kind of anthropomorphic entity.

No one is obliged to believe in God...but we are in a great need to love each other.

And you think that conflating the two words "God" and "love" will trick some people into believing in your imaginary friend, based on such a distorted emotional appeal?!

It is really nothing more than a DISHONEST TACTIC.

And if we do....we will come closer and closer to meet him.

Him?! You mean Love? Love is a him?!

I will leave you in god`s love.......forever.

I will leave you in god LOVE`s love.......forever.

:lol:

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(In the quote; The black text was mine, the red his. (Annoying I know.)

That may well be the case. Unless:

1. "God" is properly defined, to have attributes that can be tested, looked for. (e.g. intercessory prayer works in this way - tested, not true. So a God which makes it work does not exist.)

2. This god actually bothers to make even the slightest effort to establish its existence. Which should be a trivial task.

First of all, since I am not Christian, my perception of God may be different.

The Islamic view is that the whole point of our creation is to seek God in our lives. He is capable of revealing himself, but that would just defeat the purpose.

This IS the "Christian Discussion" thread you know. Not that it is of any relevance.

Christians often make the same excuse, frequently worded as "God revealing himself would negate the need for Faith." I agree, and would approve, as Faith is irrational amd just plain stupid.

What the hel is this purpose then? To get believers willing to abandon all reason, and just believe something without any good reason?! That's insane!

That may change some peoples minds. It shouldn't though, as that would only be evidence of ones emotions, feelings, not any reality behind it.

Another, far superior way of changing minds would be for this god (supposedly "all powerful" and knowing etc.) could simply be to reveal himself. A ridiculously simple task one would think. The absence of such evidence is itself rather telling.

See above.

I did, it's daft. You think it's a good thing to believe something without evidence?! Or do you just make this exception for your god?

In other words, you are saying that I SHOULD NOT believe this stuff, until God chooses to get of his get off his omnipotent arse and prove his own existence to me. So it is God's fault that I don't believe...but he will punish me for that anyway. Hmm. :dry:

I'm saying that you WILL NOT ever believe this stuff no matter how much anybody tries, based on past experience and the fact that anyone who goes out of his way to argue with people who doesn't share his views usually holds his belief too tightly.

What?!

Rubbish: "anyone who goes out of his way to argue with people who doesn't share his views" is someone willing to enter into debate. Either only to support their case, but often times in order to, through the discussion, come to a clearer approximation of the truth; to talk with people with differing views in order to further the goal of Believing as many true things, and as few false things as possible.

Perhaps I am right, perhaps one or more of my opponents are, perhaps the truth lies somewhere else. And discussion and argument is one means by which to determine this.

And your claim is refuted by the fact that I know a fair few people to have argued on both the theistic and atheistic side at different times. And it was in those arguments that their positions were caused to change.

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One of the main points in a thiest's argument is that something cant come from nothing. Even if we dismiss that whole "then how did god come to be" and all the answers that come with it, how did GOD make something from nothing. Was he made up of the earth? Did he put it together? Did he magically make everything appear (which you claim cannot happen)? Even Hermione in Harry Potter knows you cant do that you cant make everything from nothing! http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gamp's_Law_of_Elemental_Transfiguration

So I'm curious: did god take everything from himself (in which case he IS the universe, and so the universe created itself, or did he just make things appear along side him (ill take some eggs, some sugar...Oh! cant forget the milk...). If so...that was created from nothing.

did i miss something?

Yes, you missed the first, sometimes hidden, first step :P :

Set up a False Dilemma; Either this secular/scientific explanation is (undoubtably) true, or GodDidIt.

Then all you have to do is cast doubt on the secular answer, and God wins by default!

And this is why such arguments ONLY work for the theists.* They are essentially "pre-programmed" to accept that their god did it, as a default solution to anything and everything.

*Those theists who have only experienced it between other believers are often surprised when they first find that non-believers aren't as easily convinced as they were, instead they dismiss it with ease! More striking is how former believers recall readily accepting this False Dilemma when they believed, while readily seeing the flaws now that they no longer do. (And having trouble imagining how they could have been so gullible!)

It can be incredibly difficult for one to come to the condition of truly critically thinking about those beliefs (in gods etc.) that are indoctrinated as foundational. And frequently requires some kind of trigger (mine was a religious class asking about our level of belief in relation to an imagined "revelation" point. For others it may take more.)

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I said before....and I`ll say it again now....We created the God in order to explain what can not explain it till now.

and whoever says,there is No god....he should proove it.

What you state god is a creation of man, then claim to believe in this creation??

I said it before ill say it again I'm agnostic. I do not state god doesnt exist. I state that I do not know, and that his existence or non existence is irrelevant.

though i really can't see how you can claim man created god then claim god created the universe. Does that mean Man predates the universe??

God.....is Love....

does that mean agnostics, or those who believe in a god other than yours, or even in polytheism, cannot love??

Sayalzah: Glad to see a non-christian religious person on here adds a slightly different perspective.

Yes define god anyway you want but that does not make god conform to your definitions. I can define a duck as an inanimate object, it doesnt make it so.

As to seeking god being part of it, every religion has some similar requirement. It is necessary. If not then people would question the point. Either believe or don't believe but if it isn't in the religion the religion is doomed.

Peace: i skipped all your steps and when i began to give the concept of god any thought i went immdeiately to agnostic with a leaning to atheism but it was years and years later before i learned the term agnostic.

ADParker: again read Plato. This is exactly what he does, only he uses his logic to explain why the "Philosophers" ie himself should be the rulers in a perfect society.

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Unlike other people i am not afraid to talk about religion. I'm a student at a public school and i talk to others about religion i am actually surprised on how many kids at my school actually go to church. The kids here know all about God and everything he did for us. I myself am a Seventh Day Adventist, I go to church on Saturday. Now in the Bible it says that you should keep the seventh day Holy, well if you go through the days, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. When you grow up you are taught this. So why do so many people go to church on different days? I believe that people can go to church when they choose but keep the Sabbath Day Holy (The Seventh Day, Saturday) When you are in your church you pray for those who are lost. But ask yourself this what do you do on the Seventh Day? Do you keep it Holy? Do you keep yourself pure? Ask yourself these questions. I'm not saying I am perfect. I am far from but I do try to keep God and his words ahead of anything else. Now its your turn. Share your thoughts.

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I go to church on sunday, because thats when the closest church is open...and thats when the snacks are served :D

I think its because some calendars start with monday, others sunday. The US calendar begins with sunday, but i think historically, it started with monday...i think its that way in spain too (NOTE: did not research this, i may be very very very wrong :P ). Plus monday is usually when kids go back to school, and many adults start work for the week on that day too, so it could be considered the first day of "work." so if monday = 1, sunday =7.

just my input.

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And the lord said let ther be light and there was.

SUNday is supposedly the day god created light,

Christians changed their day of worship from Saturday (the day of rest) to Sunday to avoid persecution from the Romans.

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Lord Jesus Christ freed us from Days slavery.

We should glory our God everyday.god is not only in church....god is inside each one of us...he is our soul.

All the days are his days..in the past...now...and forever.

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Lord Jesus Christ freed us from Days slavery.

We should glory our God everyday.god is not only in church....god is inside each one of us...he is our soul.

All the days are his days..in the past...now...and forever.

??? wait - so God made the days, and we were slaves to the days, so we were slaves to what god created, and jesus freed us from what god created...

Jesus sounds like a rebel kid! :D

Im sorry if this sounds...mean, but when you add something like this, can you try not to just preach to all of us? Can you give some more reason to your posts? Dont get me wrong, i love reading how jesus was a rebel, but I have to admit that post after post of god is love, god is your soul makes me think. we constantly ask you to defend yourself, and you just tell us again that god is love.

I like a challenge! :P:D

EDIT: and did you even answer the question? which day do you go to church on...unless your church is open 24/7, in which case, i apoligize.

huh??

before Jesus everyone was slaves after we all became free?

JESUS WAS A REBEL! :D

Edited by peace*out

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And the lord said let ther be light and there was.

SUNday is supposedly the day god created light,

Christians changed their day of worship from Saturday (the day of rest) to Sunday to avoid persecution from the Romans.

From what I understand the worshipping on Sunday is tradition based. Quite a few of the early Christians were also Jewish. Since the Jewish worshipped on Saturday the Christians started gathering on Sunday. Think there are some references to this in Acts. Been years since I bothered reading anything though so memory could be off.

Personally I like having these two days off from work. That is one good thing religion provided us.

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Personally I like having these two days off from work. That is one good thing religion provided us.

Except for High School <_<

but religion cause us to have weekends? so without religion, there would be no weekends????

o.O wow...i guess i have to thank religion...

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Except for High School <_<

but religion cause us to have weekends? so without religion, there would be no weekends????

o.O wow...i guess i have to thank religion...

It could be coincidence but I would guess not. I am unable to think of any other reason that Saturday and Sunday are considered different from Monday through Friday. Would society have picked different days to rest or make seven day work weeks without religion?

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Christians went to sunday to try and avoid persecution from romans not to be differetn from jews.

The weekend as a 2 day thing is very very very recent go back 100 years and you worked mon-sat and had sunday off to pray (at least in western christian societies) the second day off saturday came along in the 20th century cant remember when exactly though.

remember the week having 7 days is a human construct. Other societies have used different calendar systems, but the one we got the Julian calendar has basically become the world standard.

Wolfie: you still havent answered me do you really believe man created god? and that god created the universe??

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It could be coincidence but I would guess not. I am unable to think of any other reason that Saturday and Sunday are considered different from Monday through Friday.

Not entirely a coincidence no. It all came through two sources;

1. The Labour Unions pushing for the 40 hour week (although in the U.S. it was nearly a 32 hour week, except other countries were already adopting 40 hour ones.) and

2. Religious observances. Where Sunday was already traditionally the Christian Day off work, and Saturday was added as the second "weekend" day to cater to those of the Jewish Faith.

Together leading to a 40 hour week of five 8 hour days, and two days for the weekend.

Would society have picked different days to rest or make seven day work weeks without religion?

Undoubtedly. In much the Middle East Friday is the traditional day of rest. And as they feel a stronger tie to Judaism than Christianity a Friday/Saturday weekend would be a likely result for a two day weekend.

On something of a side note; the days of the week themselves are tied to other gods and/or celestial objects (often the focus fof worship):

Sunday: Sun's day (personified as Norse pantheon goddess Sunna or Sól.)

Monday: Moon's day (personified in the Norse pantheon god Máni.)

Tuesday: Tiw's day (Tiw is the god of single combat and pledges in Norse pantheon of gods.) Also associated with Mars (Roman War god)

Wednesday: Wodan's day (Aka Wotan, Odin. All-Father of the Norse pantheon of gods.)

Thursday: Thor's day (Norse god of thunder, Odin's son.)

Friday" Frigg's day (Norse pantheon goddess, wife of Odin.)

Saturday: Saturn's day (Saturn of Roman pantheon mirrors Cronus of Greek/Olympian pantheon - Father of Zeus/Jupiter, and many of the known gods of their pantheons.)

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Christians went to sunday to try and avoid persecution from romans not to be differetn from jews.

The weekend as a 2 day thing is very very very recent go back 100 years and you worked mon-sat and had sunday off to pray (at least in western christian societies) the second day off saturday came along in the 20th century cant remember when exactly though.

remember the week having 7 days is a human construct. Other societies have used different calendar systems, but the one we got the Julian calendar has basically become the world standard.

Wolfie: you still havent answered me do you really believe man created god? and that god created the universe??

I will answer that question. If we created God and he is so perfect why the hell are we not? And I believe entirely that God did create the universe and that he created us. And I believe that we have a choice to follow him or not. Ok, now my question for you is are there still Romans that are persecuting us? Not hardly, so why does the day not change back to worshiping on the Sabbath(Saturday) like it has been forever? I mean honestly are there that many people still afraid to be persecuted? I know everyday there is someone out there that will be dissing on religion. I accept that but I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe in what I know to be true and right. I've gone to Church my entire life and on everyday I've gone on Sabbath (Saturday). I've gone once to church on Sunday. Does that make me a sinner? No, as long as you keep Gods seventh day Holy, God does not care if you 'come' to him and ask for forgiveness of ask for help.

To the calender issue, if i were to print out millions of copies of just random calenders saying. "Ok, Tuesday is no longer Tuesday it is now Friday." Does that mean that it is now Friday? I don't think so. Oh well then lets just shift the days over one slot so its convenient. Oh, that makes it right, lets do that.No! It's the same exact thing as my example.

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brandonyy4u:

you missed my point, Wolfie stated that man createed god and he believe sin god. i find this statement contradictory. i asked him for clarification, only he can explain what he meant by that statement.

The day of worship was changed for a reason, pesecution, just because the reason is gone doesnt mean that the custom will suddenly change.

go look it up it is easy to find. Why do we celebrate christmas when we do? it isnt christs b-day it was picked because pagan religions had a celebration that day and it was easier to convert people by using the same holy days. Not many pagans left yet we dont change back. Why? same reason as sunday worship it has become custom. In fact Christmas is celebrated even today on several different dates.

You missunderstand what i was saying about the calendar. There have been, and are different calendar systems. Not all contained weeks of 7 days. I am not redefining the calendar, just stating that the one we use today is a human construct. A week could contain 6 or 8 days or we could get rid of them and just work on a monthly system. A day is defined by the rotation of the earth, a year by the orbit of the eath around the sun. Months and weeks are arbitrary.

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I will answer that question. If we created God and he is so perfect why the hell are we not? And I believe entirely that God did create the universe and that he created us. And I believe that we have a choice to follow him or not. Ok, now my question for you is are there still Romans that are persecuting us? Not hardly, so why does the day not change back to worshiping on the Sabbath(Saturday) like it has been forever? I mean honestly are there that many people still afraid to be persecuted? I know everyday there is someone out there that will be dissing on religion. I accept that but I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe in what I know to be true and right. I've gone to Church my entire life and on everyday I've gone on Sabbath (Saturday). I've gone once to church on Sunday. Does that make me a sinner? No, as long as you keep Gods seventh day Holy, God does not care if you 'come' to him and ask for forgiveness of ask for help.

To the calender issue, if i were to print out millions of copies of just random calenders saying. "Ok, Tuesday is no longer Tuesday it is now Friday." Does that mean that it is now Friday? I don't think so. Oh well then lets just shift the days over one slot so its convenient. Oh, that makes it right, lets do that.No! It's the same exact thing as my example.

You could also ask that the other way. If God's so perfect, why are we not as perfect? Why, if God "hates the gays," did he make them? everything is created by god. evil, the devil (yes - ive heard the rebuttle to that, but there are still flaws in it), and "sinning." He forgives us, yet makes sure we have roadblocks in our way so we cant all achieve salvation. Why create sin, jelousy, and make our brains work the way they work if he dislikes some of the ways they are??

ahhh, questions. :P

I think its because its "the norm." I have a friend who gos to church on sat. because the church she goes to holds worship on sat. and your point is interesting - if its only important that we love god, why does it matter which day we go?

true - but different cultures had their own...i want to say styles or versions of calendars, but that doesnt sound right. i kind of want to say that each...had its own interpretation? i dont know, tell me if you have no idea what im saying. :P

And i just want to say thanks really quickly...you brought discussions back into this thread. I know that i was definitly, but before it was i believe this. i believe THIS. well I BELIEVE THIS! :P I like the questions - these are just my answer, keep 'em coming :)

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You could also ask that the other way. If God's so perfect, why are we not as perfect? Why, if God "hates the gays," did he make them? everything is created by god. evil, the devil (yes - ive heard the rebuttle to that, but there are still flaws in it), and "sinning." He forgives us, yet makes sure we have roadblocks in our way so we cant all achieve salvation. Why create sin, jelousy, and make our brains work the way they work if he dislikes some of the ways they are??

ahhh, questions. :P

I think its because its "the norm." I have a friend who gos to church on sat. because the church she goes to holds worship on sat. and your point is interesting - if its only important that we love god, why does it matter which day we go?

true - but different cultures had their own...i want to say styles or versions of calendars, but that doesnt sound right. i kind of want to say that each...had its own interpretation? i dont know, tell me if you have no idea what im saying. :P

And i just want to say thanks really quickly...you brought discussions back into this thread. I know that i was definitly, but before it was i believe this. i believe THIS. well I BELIEVE THIS! :P I like the questions - these are just my answer, keep 'em coming :)

God made us in his image. He wanted us to make the choice, to have the choice to follow him or not. God does not hate anyone. He may dislike the decisions that anyone makes, but he does not hate anyone.

Back to being perfect, if we were all perfect what would God accomplish by making hundreds of thousands of people the same, yeah we might all look different but everyone will have the same 'story'.

A side note (your welcome for starting it back up again)

Edited by brandonyy4u

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On perfection: true - but thats what the bible asks us to be, doesnt it? It asks us to not sin and put god above everything else (jesus and the holy spirit also for christians). Why not create man as non - sinners. No destruction...everyone would be considered part of "god's people." Why create us imperfect? different, yes, but why not perfect? Im not talking about perfect skin, perfect looks. Im talking about "loving god"...why create athiests/agnostics/let other religions become...other religions if it goes against gods plan?

Oh - and i know in the bible it said that god made us in his image. however, the bible has been edited many times. How do we KNOW that it's in his image? and, if the bible was in "his image," why DONT we all look the same.

Oh - and how do we know god's a "he?"

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I will answer that question.

You really can't answer a question as to what someone else believes.

If we created God and he is so perfect why the hell are we not?

He isn't "so perfect" though. People say he is, but the stories don't paint a picture of anything close to perfection, not by a long shot. On the contrary he tends to reflect the character of those telling the stories, and the times in which those stories are told.

And I believe entirely that God did create the universe and that he created us. And I believe that we have a choice to follow him or not.

Okay, you believe that. So? and why?

Ok, now my question for you is are there still Romans that are persecuting us? Not hardly, so why does the day not change back to worshiping on the Sabbath(Saturday) like it has been forever?

Because things rarely change when the cause for the change goes away. It usually takes a new cause to come along to prompt the change. As it stands; Practically all Christians habitually set their worship day as Sunday, so what would cause them to change that to Saturday or any other day?

I've gone to Church my entire life and on everyday I've gone on Sabbath (Saturday).

Your entire life? Indoctrination.

I've gone once to church on Sunday. Does that make me a sinner?

"Sin" is the made up edicts of the god(s)*, so yes you have "sinned" according to any god that calls this a sin, and no you have not according to any god that doesn't.

*Sin is routinely implied as equating to morality, but it isn't really about ethics at all, but obedience.

No, as long as you keep Gods seventh day Holy, God does not care if you 'come' to him and ask for forgiveness of ask for help.

A truly perfect being would be grown up enough to realize that NO day is holy. That doesn't even make sense, just some arbitrary rule.

To the calender issue, if i were to print out millions of copies of just random calenders saying. "Ok, Tuesday is no longer Tuesday it is now Friday." Does that mean that it is now Friday? I don't think so.

Of course not. Changing the names of the days would be a matter of committees with the authority to make such changes. Although a popular meme change might well do the same job.

By way of an example; for years Kentucky Fried Chicken was known by people as KFC. Eventually the company decided to go with the flow and make it official, re-branding themselves (at least in some countries) as KFC. If every started calling Tuesday Friday (or Ooglesday or Tiwsday...) then I imagine that would become the "official" name at some point.

Oh well then lets just shift the days over one slot so its convenient. Oh, that makes it right, lets do that.No! It's the same exact thing as my example.

Irrelevant. That calender 'issue' is moot. Some calenders set the weeks from Sunday, Saturday or Monday. Doesn't change a thing about what day it is today. It is just an arbitrary formatting thing.

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Tell me, in the Bible where it does not show God as not being perfect?

The reason I believe that God created everything is because no one could make something more beautiful more perfect than the world we live on, he sent the human race onto his perfect Earth at we've destroyed it.

Normally things do change back with time but time is something that the human race is running out of. God is coming soon and we need to be ready.

And yes, I've gone to church my entire life I was born in a Christian family and I've gone to Church ever since.

Which obedience is one thing that God tried to teach Adam and Eve at the very beginning of time, look where it got them.

Read the bible: Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, Holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Yes but with it "official" it still does not make it right.

Ahhh but you are wrong, if you look at the regular calender, (sun-sat) it says Saturday is the seventh day (if you try to argue that) (it was the first calender made and its still being used) then you look at a mess up calender (mon-sun) it says Sunday is the seventh day. That's where people have been being mislead and it is still effecting people now and it will effect people for the rest of their lives. Because that's what they were taught by their parents. Mislead and they carry on the tradition from one generation to the next.

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On perfection: true - but thats what the bible asks us to be, doesnt it? It asks us to not sin and put god above everything else (jesus and the holy spirit also for christians). Why not create man as non - sinners. No destruction...everyone would be considered part of "god's people." Why create us imperfect? different, yes, but why not perfect? Im not talking about perfect skin, perfect looks. Im talking about "loving god"...why create athiests/agnostics/let other religions become...other religions if it goes against gods plan?

Oh - and i know in the bible it said that god made us in his image. however, the bible has been edited many times. How do we KNOW that it's in his image? and, if the bible was in "his image," why DONT we all look the same.

Oh - and how do we know god's a "he?"

Because that would take away our free will and our choice. What would be the point of making hundreds of thousand of perfect people? God was perfect and he has scars to show it. He died for you and me so that we may live eternally in heaven with him, if we choose to accept his invitation.

When a child is born does he look the same as a baby as he does when he is an adult? No, God created us different so we would... hell I've got no idea.

The Bible says God sent down Hisonly son so we would be saved through him.

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