Human origin" according to my own theory"

[kestrelknight]

I like to think of the creator as a curious child playing with a train set. build it, plan what it is going to do, then marvel as the train goes around in circles...eventually boredom hits and it is time to go build another train set.

A kid can't do that forever. Trust me. I've watched one try. This God we're talking about is omniscient, he doesn't need to build the train set, because he knows exactly what's going to happen. He can recreate it all in his head without having to affect the actual world. If that's the only reason he's created, why should he bother?

[BMAD]

your god may be omniscient. I made no such assumption.

[kestrelknight]

your god may be omniscient. I made no such assumption.

If he knows enough to know how to create the beginnings of life, I'm sure he's close enough.

[Aaryan]

You guys are thinking of the creator as some sort of person (the elephant thing was a joke, btw, referring to John Green's rant about elephants gestation). I think "it" is incomprehensible. Just sort of exists. If it is anthropomorphic, then it's probably got something to keep it occupied. A game of chess against himself with eternity on the clock would be rather fun.

[BMAD]

your god may be omniscient. I made no such assumption.

If he knows enough to know how to create the beginnings of life, I'm sure he's close enough.

I agree with Aaryan on this part. I make no claim of intent or knowledge of the creator. I mistakenly created life in my cup one day when i let set the residue of an old soda for about three weeks. If those millions of life forms ever gained sentience what would they think of me? God?, caring god? merciful lord? oh great omniscient being? creator? or a person too busy to remember to wash out his cup?

[Barcallica]

Can anyone tell me how Darvinists or evolutioists explain first living thing ever formed?

[Aaryan]

Can anyone tell me how Darvinists or evolutioists explain first living thing ever formed?

Make what you like of this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2745620/

[BMAD]

I cannot remember what country it was but there was a rather controversial study in that a scientist rigged a container to receive constant electric shocks to a liquid environment (i believe) and within that environment was the basic compounds of life in isolated chemical forms (e.g. carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and nitrogen). after about two weeks of running the electric shock the scientist noticed that the chemicals were forming into amino acids published his findings and received such backlash that the study couldn't be furthered.

the point: life isn't hard to create if the foundation is there and a little shock occurs to push events along.

[flamebirde]

Can anyone tell me how Darvinists or evolutioists explain first living thing ever formed?

Well, can you then explain to me how God was created?

[BMAD]

little shocks of lightening

[kestrelknight]

Can anyone tell me how Darvinists or evolutioists explain first living thing ever formed?

Well, can you then explain to me how God was created?

He wasn't. He was always there.

[flamebirde]

So, assuming God can be "always there", why precisely can't the first living thing be "always there"?

[kestrelknight]

So, assuming God can be "always there", why precisely can't the first living thing be "always there"?

Exactly. See? No Big Bang needed.

On a more serious note, there's really no reason. Perhaps the world always existed. That's what people have been wondering for thousands of years: Were we created, or did we just happen?

From now on, I'm going to argue with everyone, and look at things objectively. Unfortunately, no one seemed to be on my side before, so if it seems like I'm only fighting with Darwinists and Atheists, it's not my fault.

Edited July 23, 2013 by kestrelknight

[BMAD]

I am neither. I am a deist. I do not deny the existence of god. I question the active role they play.

[kestrelknight]

I am neither. I am a deist. I do not deny the existence of god. I question the active role they play.

Derp. Probably should've put an etc. at the end of that list.

So let me get this straight;

You think that God created the world (as he's done other times), then watched?

Okay.

[BMAD]

Not quite.

God intentionally or unintentionally created our universe's existence. To bring order to the chaos, as seen in many faiths there seems to be a drive as such, they created a set of rules (or perhaps the rules exist as a result of how the universe was created). That is the extent for which God directly interacts with Earth. Think of the Christian creation myth but instead of looking at it applied to earth and humans, apply it to a grander scale--the creation of the universe and sentience.

If we take the Christian belief as God being an all-knowing, all-caring, all-powerful, all-present god then god would have known from the start everything that needed to be done to care for "his" humans and would have made sure that everything was in place (the master plan) at time of creation. If this is true, then what is the purpose of there presence? It can't be to watch someone get murdered (for that would contradict all-caring, it can't be to observe us make a decision and judge us, as that would contradict all-knowing since he already knows and therefore judged us, it can't be to ensure his laws are followed for that will contradict his all-powerful status as that would imply we superseded god's law. Therefore, including the characteristic of all-present in that matrix of how god 'is' produces a string of contradictions and hence, deist reject that defining aspect of god. Not saying that God is never present but always present in the minutiae of everything is unnecessary and illogical.

[Aaryan]

I am neither. I am a deist. I do not deny the existence of god. I question the active role they play.

I think I just found my religion.

Not quite.

God intentionally or unintentionally created our universe's existence. To bring order to the chaos, as seen in many faiths there seems to be a drive as such, they created a set of rules (or perhaps the rules exist as a result of how the universe was created). That is the extent for which God directly interacts with Earth. Think of the Christian creation myth but instead of looking at it applied to earth and humans, apply it to a grander scale--the creation of the universe and sentience.

If we take the Christian belief as God being an all-knowing, all-caring, all-powerful, all-present god then god would have known from the start everything that needed to be done to care for "his" humans and would have made sure that everything was in place (the master plan) at time of creation. If this is true, then what is the purpose of there presence? It can't be to watch someone get murdered (for that would contradict all-caring, it can't be to observe us make a decision and judge us, as that would contradict all-knowing since he already knows and therefore judged us, it can't be to ensure his laws are followed for that will contradict his all-powerful status as that would imply we superseded god's law. Therefore, including the characteristic of all-present in that matrix of how god 'is' produces a string of contradictions and hence, deist reject that defining aspect of god. Not saying that God is never present but always present in the minutiae of everything is unnecessary and illogical.

As for this, I don't think this God is a "person", per se. The word incomprehensible is what I said before, and is what I think describes the creator well.

[BMAD]

Deism allows your interpretation as well. Ps. My point on the last part was just to show the counter argument towards a perfect god

[kestrelknight]

Not quite.

God intentionally or unintentionally created our universe's existence. To bring order to the chaos, as seen in many faiths there seems to be a drive as such, they created a set of rules (or perhaps the rules exist as a result of how the universe was created). That is the extent for which God directly interacts with Earth. Think of the Christian creation myth but instead of looking at it applied to earth and humans, apply it to a grander scale--the creation of the universe and sentience.

If we take the Christian belief as God being an all-knowing, all-caring, all-powerful, all-present god then god would have known from the start everything that needed to be done to care for "his" humans and would have made sure that everything was in place (the master plan) at time of creation. If this is true, then what is the purpose of there presence? It can't be to watch someone get murdered (for that would contradict all-caring, it can't be to observe us make a decision and judge us, as that would contradict all-knowing since he already knows and therefore judged us, it can't be to ensure his laws are followed for that will contradict his all-powerful status as that would imply we superseded god's law. Therefore, including the characteristic of all-present in that matrix of how god 'is' produces a string of contradictions and hence, deist reject that defining aspect of god. Not saying that God is never present but always present in the minutiae of everything is unnecessary and illogical.

*shrug*

Okay, I can run with that.

[Kikacat123]

So, assuming God can be "always there", why precisely can't the first living thing be "always there"?

God is omnipotent and eternal, whereas the "first living things" have no ability to think, create, and do not live forever.

[kestrelknight]

So, assuming God can be "always there", why precisely can't the first living thing be "always there"?

God is omnipotent and eternal, whereas the "first living things" have no ability to think, create, and do not live forever.

Nicely said.

[flamebirde]

but why would they need to think or create, when they don't need to? Eventually they would evolve that way, and be able to think and create, like we humans can now. Also, don't forget that many other creatures and animals display forms of lesser intelligence. Furthermore, if God is "omnipotent and eternal", then from whom did he gain those powers? His God? And if you insist that he gained them himself, then he evolved that way and was thus the first living thing. If God had those powers since before time and before everything else, as you believe or seem to believe, then how can you be sure that he did create us? He created us when we were created, and thus we have no knowledge of what came before us besides what we have managed to puzzle out from clues left behind. he may have gained his powers just after the first being was created, and therefore if that is true he did not always have powers. Essentially, that means that he is/was not omnipotent.

On a side note, why do you actually believe in creationism? I've asked many of my Christian friends before, and they have invariably responded "Well, I was raised this way" or something similar. Which is a fine response, but I feel that for something as big as religion believers should have an actual logical reason.

[Kikacat123]

What I mean is that God is all powerful. He has always existed and always will. Single-celled organisms have not always existed, and their "lives" can end. God did not gain his powers from anyone. He has always been omnipotent and eternal. You ask how we can be sure that He created us. How else would we spontaneously appear? It is true that we do not know what came before us. But the Bible says that the earth was "without form and void" so we can assume that God started with a shapeless earth, much like a blob of clay.

I was actually raised in a family that supported evolution. When I went to public school, I was taught the Big Bang and Darwinism and all that. But I started noticing some holes in the theory. For instance, mutations, almost always harmful, were supposed to turn microscopic cells into people? What about the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record? Carbon dating is determined by an equation missing two necessary variables. My grandma is a Christian and a Creationist, and she taught me some about Creationism. I read books, I did google searches, I watched debates on the subject. Finally, I decided that the evidence for Creationism overwhelmed that for evolution. When I asked a question about God, I would receive an actual answer that made sense. I made my decision to trust in Jesus Christ and God's Word in Genesis 1. No one should put their faith in something blindly. Do some research. Check the facts. Then you can see for yourself that the Bible is the truth.

Edit: single celled, not single called.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Kikacat123

[flamebirde]

What I mean is that God is all powerful. He has always existed and always will. Single-celled organisms have not always existed, and their "lives" can end. God did not gain his powers from anyone. He has always been omnipotent and eternal. You ask how we can be sure that He created us. How else would we spontaneously appear? It is true that we do not know what came before us. But the Bible says that the earth was "without form and void" so we can assume that God started with a shapeless earth, much like a blob of clay.

I was actually raised in a family that supported evolution. When I went to public school, I was taught the Big Bang and Darwinism and all that. But I started noticing some holes in the theory. For instance, mutations, almost always harmful, were supposed to turn microscopic cells into people? What about the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record? Carbon dating is determined by an equation missing two necessary variables. My grandma is a Christian and a Creationist, and she taught me some about Creationism. I read books, I did google searches, I watched debates on the subject. Finally, I decided that the evidence for Creationism overwhelmed that for evolution. When I asked a question about God, I would receive an actual answer that made sense. I made my decision to trust in Jesus Christ and God's Word in Genesis 1. No one should put their faith in something blindly. Do some research. Check the facts. Then you can see for yourself that the Bible is the truth.

Edit: single celled, not single called.

"When I asked a question about God, I would receive an actual answer that made sense." Well, who did you ask? What answer did they give you? I simply can't just trust and believe without proof, not when there is an alternative that seems to me to be reasoned and logical. yes, most mutations are harmful, but over eons of time, eventually cells would evolve. Also, I ask not how we can be sure that God created us, but how we can be sure that he has always been there and has always been omnipotent. As for the lack of transitional fossils, there are quite a few that we do have. Every time paleontologists predict a transitional fossil to look like this rather than that, far more often are they right as opposed to wrong. The whole universe was without shape or form, and an endless void before the Big Bang happened. The only way the existence of God can be proven is if a miracle happens that violates one of nature's laws that scientists have compiled painstakingly over hundreds of years. For instance, if a blob of matter were to spontaneously pop into existence in front of me, in defiance of the law of conservation of energy and mass, then I would have to believe that there is, in fact, a God because no other being would possess the knowledge and power to do that. Unless that it happens to be Zeus or an Aztec sun god or some other possibility. Tell me: if the chances of humans and other animals from evolution is ridiculously tiny, then what are the chances that your God is truly God and not some other god believed in by other cultures? Or an alien? Or a human in two trillion years, where the creation of universes is the pastime of children?

[Kikacat123]

I asked myself questions and found answers in the Bible or on Christian websites. As to God's omnipotence, how could he suddenly become all-knowing? Similarly, if He has not always been there, where did He come from? If the theory of evolution is true, then we should be able to see a modest number of the organisms that we recognize as fully formed, but have many, many more transitional forms. How many links are between a fish and a reptile? How many combinations of mutations will it take to reach the next organism? If the whole universe was void, then what "big banged"? How can nothingness explode into a universe? There are hundreds of miracles listed in the Bible, and also miracles that we can see today. God does not only work by doing inexplicable things that defy science, He also works within natural laws. Take healings, for instance. One way to know that one God is real and not another is to check what that god says. Books of religion written by humans without God's guidance have mistakes and inaccuracies in them.