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Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.) :rolleyes:

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Hey guys, I think I'm gonna become a satanist. I mean, if it's his fault for everything, that demonstrates some serious power. Power > peace. Plus, if I go to Hell, he'll be cool with me anyway, and I can become one of his awesome demons or help him with stuff. Stuff being practically anything, I hear he's very good at certain things. ;)

All hail!

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why would something created by God (Satan), in full first hand knowledge of God's power, ever think that he would be capable of winning a war against an omniscient and all-powerful being? Is it not imprudent to think that God is all-powerful if something that new him more intimately than you or I could in life was willing to take him on in direct battle?

One would think that this implies the possibility of winning said war, therefore implying God is mortal, corruptible or has limits to his powers. This would be made more evident by the idea that even after this mutiny from a beloved creation, even after knowing the future and knowing that this creation will purposefully corrupt many more of God's creations, wouldn't a truly kind and caring God simply blink this defiler, this mutineer out of existence?

Curious your take.

He knows he cant win he is just very stubborn. also God did not blink satan out becouse the accusations satan made would be proven then someone else would carry out the evilness

Hey guys, I think I'm gonna become a satanist. I mean, if it's his fault for everything, that demonstrates some serious power. Power > peace. Plus, if I go to Hell, he'll be cool with me anyway, and I can become one of his awesome demons or help him with stuff. Stuff being practically anything, I hear he's very good at certain things.

have fun with the flaoting lamps and chairs :P

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Ya so? heres what i believe about Satan he was an angel in heaven a very beautiful, majestic angel. then he bacame jealous of God and made accusations of him being unfair.He was able to convince one third of heaven that .So there was a huge war in heaven and Satan lost , he was banished to the earth. and became Satan and his angels became deamons. and then man was created he rempted eve and sin came. Technicly you could say i do believe in hell accept that its not a place YET . you see i believe after the mallenium in heaven, heaven will come down to earth, and God will raise the wicked, then satan will tell them that he rose them and the wicked will attack heaven the fire will consume the earth and destroy the wicked that time peroid where they burn is helll. and i dont believe its eternal.

<Yawn> Yeah, that's a nice story and all. Personally I prefer The Lord of the Rings, but to each his own.

And yes; the obvious first question is; Why do you believe it to be anything more than an amusing story?

Although it is pretty obvious that the answer is that you read it in a book, or more accurately you heard the stories told from that book, and perhaps eventually read it yourself. And were indoctrinated into believing the tales where true. Not through reasoning and/or evidence, but irrational apologetics and appeals to emotion and imagination.

That being a lost cause, the next question is; Why should ANYONE ELSE even consider believing it to be true?!

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<Yawn> Yeah, that's a nice story and all. Personally I prefer The Lord of the Rings, but to each his own.

And yes; the obvious first question is; Why do you believe it to be anything more than an amusing story?

Although it is pretty obvious that the answer is that you read it in a book, or more accurately you heard the stories told from that book, and perhaps eventually read it yourself. And were indoctrinated into believing the tales where true. Not through reasoning and/or evidence, but irrational apologetics and appeals to emotion and imagination.

That being a lost cause, the next question is; Why should ANYONE ELSE even consider believing it to be true?!

since recorded history everyone believed in a higher power, anyone you asked. but just recently darwin came along and made evolution. doesnt that tell you something?

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since recorded history everyone believed in a higher power, anyone you asked. but just recently darwin came along and made evolution. doesnt that tell you something?

1. Your evidence for everyone believing in a higher power between the beginning of mankind and the publication of Darwin?

2. Only recently (relatively speaking) we found out that not everything revoles around us, but instead we orbit the sun. Doesn't that tell you something? Yeah, we start with ignorance and odd hypothesises, and science comes around and either debunks (as in the case with God) or confirms (like the helio-centric universe) them. ;)

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:P

It seems unfair that I was made a Cristian without my consent. There should be a law about that :dry: Now I probably can't undo it!

So my question for Bran and anyone else: How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either :)

I should ask a priest about this. Actually I have a friend studying theology. I'll ask him and I'll let you know what he said.

I have nothing against people that believe in God it's just... I wanna choose and decide on my own. I don't like people telling me what to do (my grandmother) and what I should believe in and how to behave (except on BD *waves to Martini and rookie*) :ph34r:

What's in a name? If you don't believe in it, it can hardly affect you.

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but just recently darwin came along and made evolution

First of all, Darwin did not "make" evolution. Evolution is a name given to a naturally occurring process that has always happened and always will happen in any set that reproduces genetically (biological organism or other), regardless of where such a set came from.

How evolution works

How evolution works

Behind the Controversy on evolution

^ some very informative links for you to conveniently ignore :P

since recorded history everyone believed in a higher power, anyone you asked. but just recently darwin came along and made evolution. doesnt that tell you something?

so your basic gist is that "religion is older than science" so religion is right??? :blink::wacko: How does that make sense?

I sense that you don't understand what science is... it's just the search for information and knowledge of what we can observe about the universe. Religion in its crudest forms WAS science, for it was VERY crude a long time ago. Only in the recent half-millenia or so have people really formulated science into a reliable "method" for analyzing our world, and from there scientific discoveries (which you take advantage of every day) ballooned outward exponentially.

Humans have always searched for knowledge, it seems to be our natural tendency. In early times, what other method did we have but tell fancy stories about things we knew about? Religion is old because it's a crude and inaccurate picture for understanding the universe... new viewpoints have since come up improving on the old. Dath, the religion you practice is NOT the ancient religion of our great-great-great-greatx1000-ancestor's religion... it has changed with the times, too, and is comparatively modern.

And going back to the core of your argument, it's silly to think that religion is correct just because it's older. In that case, you should switch to a more barbaric view that the cavemen supported. Or at least be a Jew, since Judaism is older than Christianity. Well not according to Christianity of course - just another example about how you're operating within the confines of what you've grown up with.

You need to break free dath :D

let's face it... we're all shaped by the views of our parents, on politics, religion, whatever. You are. I am. Izzy is. We all are. The difference between you (dath) and me, is that I realize this, and I have tried very hard to view the world independently. Since my mom was religious, my dad wasn't, this gave me a lot of freedom to think for myself about the world. But who knows how much influence is still on me?

But we can say FOR SURE with you is that you've been indoctrinated to be the way you are since you were born... you just don't know what else to think. To change your faith now would be to pull the whole rug out from under your feet, to break down your life and start it up in a different direction. I get that... I understand your need to protect it like this in face of rational scrutiny.

But what I don't get is your unwillingness to go out and discover new things... you could at least try to see things from an objective point of view, "to entertain the impossible" in a manner of speaking. I enjoy questioning myself, and often times this self-questioning has led me in new intellectual directions. I know that religions encourage you to "question... but eventually come back to the same thing". That's not the right attitude to face life with... you should always be open to opportunity and change.

When it comes down to it, dath, all we are is our sensory input. That's what you have to observe the world with. However you see the world from your brain is how you should react, but don't be afraid to step off your high pedestal and explore the rest of the world :)

What's in a name? If you don't believe in it, it can hardly affect you.

I think andromeda wanted to reverse it not for herself but for her family members

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What's in a name? If you don't believe in it, it can hardly affect you.

It doesn't affect ME and I have explained this pages ago.

If you don't care to read, don't ask!

Edited by andromeda

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since recorded history everyone believed in a higher power, anyone you asked. but just recently darwin came along and made evolution. doesnt that tell you something?

Your first claim is entirely unfounded, so I will outright dismiss it until you support it better... and therefore focus on the last clause.

Darwin did not create evolution. As a matter of fact, no natural process is created, it is discovered. What Darwin did was create a theory as to how evolution happened, an explanation of the probable mechanism that caused the easily observable natural phenomenon. Darwin's theory of evolution by natural and sexual selection was actually not the first theory of evolution, it was a replacement of the existing theory known as Lamarckian evolution. This should, for one thing, demonstrate how science is not dogmatic but instead based upon the theory best supported by the evidence - when a better explanation came along it replaced the old, which is the same thing that happened to Darwin's theories of inheritance when Mendel's Genetics work came out and DNA was discovered.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck died when Darwin was 20 years old, well before Darwin's journey on the Beagle (1831) and 30 years before Darwin wrote Origin of the Species. He was a French scientist who established the second most widely accepted theory on the mechanism of evolution ever. Lamarck's theory was fundamentally the same as Darwin's, in both theories traits were passed on from parent to offspring creating a gradual change in and between species over a long period of time. The difference is how the traits were acquired and inherited.

In Lamarck's theory, parent's acquired new helpful skills or attributes during their life that they passed part of which onto their offspring. In Darwin's theory parents passed traits onto their offspring that they already had, but only those with the best survived to do so. These theories are best illustrated with the giraffe, which is why it is the most common exaple you would find and the one I will use.

Imagine the giraffe: tall, long neck, long tongue, eats leaves, lives in the savanna of Africa.

Using Larmarckian logic, giraffes live in a area where the trees are taller than they can reach and there are yummy leaves at the top. Every day each giraffe stretches and stretches as much as they can to reach higher leaves. As a result of said stretching, their necks grow a little bit every day and they get longer than they naturally would have been. When these long necked giraffes have babies, they pass on the newly stretched neck to them!

This was the theory Darwin was taught, but something didn't add up (lol). According to Darwin's theory, those giraffes that are naturally taller than their peers are better at obtaining resources and therefore also better at surviving and reproducing. Because they are taller, their offspring will be taller than those of shorter mating pairs, therefore propagating the cycle. This mechanism caused a gradual change in the population that accumulated over many years, each generation having an average height a little taller than the last. Once they could reach the tops of the trees, their was no selective advantage anymore so they stopped getting taller.

This is a really dumbed down version, but it gets the point across. There are a few things that Darwin's theory requires, namely variation within the population and inheritance of traits. This theory was created before genetics was discovered, but people knew that kids looked like their parents and so on. If every animal was exactly the same, there could be no such thing as selection, but the general idea is that that is never really the case. Natural selection is not a creation process, but instead a deletion.

Think of dog breeding. We have hundreds of breeds of dogs in the world that all came from basically 3 sources: wolves, wild dogs and dingos. We have selected for traits that we see in those animals and bred them to create Great Danes and Teacup Yorkies. In only the matter of a few thousand years, we chose the traits that we liked to make all of these differences, we selected for them. The same process is how Darwin's idea works, only in nature the selctive force is death instead of neutering.

THat's it for today class, I am a little drunk so I need to stop before I make no sense at all.

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since recorded history everyone believed in a higher power, anyone you asked.

Appeals to Popularity now?!

Yes, and "since recorded history" everyone believed that horse hairs turned into worms due to rain, the Earth was flat, was the stationary centre of the solar system, if not the entire universe.....Etc. etc.

The Catholic Church only admitted that Galileo* was right about that latter one in 1992, a mere 350 years after his death.

*Of course it was Johannes Kepler who was the real mastermind behind that revelation, but he was a Protestant (And Galileo Galilei was a Catholic) so he doesn't count. :lol:

but just recently darwin came along and made evolution.

He didn't "make" evolution.

He didn't even 'Discover' evolution.

He devised the first working theory that EXPLAINED how evolution worked.

doesnt that tell you something?

Yes, although this is something I have long understood of course: Science is dynamic and progressive.

Unlike religious dogma and doctrine, it's very nature is to GROW UP, mature, and improve as time (and much effort) goes on. :D

(Who's side were you trying to be on there?)

I note how you quoted my post, but completely failed to answer it's very simple question:

Why should ANYONE ELSE even consider believing [your god or any god hypothesis] to be true?!

Unless, that is, you actually think that "lots of other people have believed it" has any bearing at all on it's truth value. Hint; No it does not.

Okay, reasons for god belief, once again (videos, yay):

The Origin Of God Douglas Adams

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Andromeda, I just found this article online and I found i quite interesting given our baptism discussion.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CN...;show_article=1

This is about a British de-baptism movement, but it touches on several other countries as well. What I found interesting is that the website that created these certificates actually sells them to patrons at 3 pounds each. The simple fact that over 100,000 people bought them goes to show that this is a serious matter not to be trivialized. I also support the idea of selling these certificates to support the cause even as an on-campus fundraising event or whatever. The next step is getting the church to recognize them.

The other idea from the article, which I am considering doing myself, is simply posting an announcement in one of the major papers of the country, which would go then into the national archives, stating the fact that you are renouncing your baptism. Baptisms are announced in papers, why should un-baptisms be?

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quick sidebar here, I do find it interesting that almost any post on this thread posted by a Christian is answered fully and extensively by atheists, but the same courtesy is not afforded back to our posts. I would like this to be considered a formal request for any Christian participating to please respond to the questions and criticisms posed to further the discussion, not simply add a new post that is somewhat related but disjoints the flow of the thread.

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Andromeda, I just found this article online and I found i quite interesting given our baptism discussion.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CN...;show_article=1

This is about a British de-baptism movement, but it touches on several other countries as well. What I found interesting is that the website that created these certificates actually sells them to patrons at 3 pounds each. The simple fact that over 100,000 people bought them goes to show that this is a serious matter not to be trivialized. I also support the idea of selling these certificates to support the cause even as an on-campus fundraising event or whatever. The next step is getting the church to recognize them.

The other idea from the article, which I am considering doing myself, is simply posting an announcement in one of the major papers of the country, which would go then into the national archives, stating the fact that you are renouncing your baptism. Baptisms are announced in papers, why should un-baptisms be?

Wow! This is great. So all I have to do is go to the church where I was baptized in and have my name erased from the records that I was baptized. I would probably have to pay for it, but it's a small price for freedom :)

We don't announce baptisms, so the newspaper thingy wouldn't work.

What I find weird is that Christians are trying to persuade people to join Christianity by threating that everyone who isn't Christian will go to hell. Call me crazy, but that's just bad propaganda :lol:

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Personally, after reading this topic, i think i am leaning even farther toward atheism. I was before, but im so close im almost falling.

"quick sidebar here, I do find it interesting that almost any post on this thread posted by a Christian is answered fully and extensively by atheists, but the same courtesy is not afforded back to our posts." ~~kawnsentrait (haha i just got your name!)

For the record, im technically a christian and go to church ALMOST every sunday. i've gone for my whole life. if listened, and read church stories to the 3/4 year olds (whoever said they're forcing religion on those kids, you're right).

***when i say god did this, im saying according to YOU, god did this. just a btw...

I think one of the things that makes me thing "are you kidding me" the most is when you hear about groups getting together, and WHIPPING each other on the back, to death sometimes, all in the name of god. in return for their sins. If everyone becomes christians, the death reate is going WAY up. I mean, REALLY? You're saying that god is so wonderful, he wants you to kill yourself? that hes willing to ruin someone's life (The book of Job, re-read posts if you dont unerstand what im saying) just on a dare. if satan's so bad, why was god hanging with him??? If there are bad people at school, i dont hang with them, so why does god hang out with satan? If someone dares me to jump off a brdge 100 feet up, on a dare, i wouldn't do it. Why is god any different? if he's so mad at us for sinning, why isn't there a sap of horrable lightning, and BAM we die?

Another point is that god created everything. including satan. so if we're all sons and daughters of god, so is satan. and yet you're saying that satan has NOTHING to do with god.

oh, and science ftw!

yet another point is that god made eve. he made her curious. he made her take that apple. unless, you're saying that eve is now a separate being, and that god now had nothing to do with her. but then what about now? why are we acting like our lives are all about god? because, if they were, god would have shown us all if we were going in the wrong direction, right? wait - your saying that god leaves us to find the light by ourself? well, then why are you saying that god will reward us, and direct us. cause he sure wasn't directing that guy who shot his 22 yr old autistic son (paper today) or those 3 teen that threw homade bombs out their car window (paper again). Has satan, decendant of god, made them do this? wait - your saying yes? cause then god's directing our lives too, and i just have shown that he is not in fact.

I do, just for the record, belive that there is another life once we die. that we have another chance. i believe in karma. (your karma ran over my dogma, haha) but seriously...

is there something i left out?

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Just a heads up, I haven't read this whole topic. I just saw the highlight on the board index about a christian discussion. for now, i'm just replying to peace's post. forgive me if i miss something already covered.

I am an avid Christian, non-denominational, I love God and i can rest assured every moment that He loves me. If anyone wants to say that I have no reason to doubt Him, i did once. one of my good friends died at 18 of cancer, but god's still good. I know I'll see her again someday.

Okay then, about punishment. Christians aren't about scourging for wrongs done. God is a forgiving God. it comes across as a misunderstanding to me (then again, you may be talking of a different denomination. sadly, there is dissaray in the Church across the world) of the severity of punishment. if someone commits a crime, a felony, he serves time. the Bible established that principle of punishment. it's the same basis. God has not said anything about Christians killing ourselves. Though we must be willing to take risks for Him and His purposes, He is a God who hates suicide.

as for ruining people's lives, God does do that, but don't get Him wrong. He loves His children (and all of mankind is His children) and is willing to do anything to bring them to Him. sure, the going may get rough, but that time builds us up and brings us into Him. the book of Job was about that man's testing. the testing of His faith in the Lord. the Lord allowed Satan to intervene with Job's prosperity. if you look, at the end of that book, it says that Job's later years were far better than those before the tragedies. in fact, he had twice as much as before, and was much stronger in his faith.

about the good hanging with the bad. Satan was the prince of the whole world before the Death and resurrection of Christ. he could go wherever he wanted. he was the top archangel before his fall. God doesn't "hang out" with Him. God's reaction to Satan's presence in heaven suggests that it was unusual for Satan to show up in a place like that(God's still all powerful, He had nothing to be surprised of).

going back to the punishment. in my experience with God, there is sooo much more love than anger. we Christians have a favorite line "His anger lasts a moment, but His favor lasts a lifetime." He is a forgiving God. that's why there are troubles in life instead of flashes of lightning or deadly firestorms and such. you may say that in the Old Testament, He did strike people down instantly. I don't deny it. but that was Old Testament, we are in the New Testament. Jesus had died for our sins so we don't have to. that's why we celebrate Easter! that's why we get so excited about our God!

i see your logic in how God created Satan, but there's a piece missing. God created man in His own image. the angels weren't. God didn't create Satan as Satan. As i said before, Satan used to be an archangel named Lucifer. he was the worship leader of heaven. when God created the universe and mankind, Lucifer let himself get jealous, and had his fall, and a third of the angels in heaven (which are now known as demons) went with him. God created us as His children, modeled after Him. but the angels weren't. they are his active instruments of worship.

about Eve. God created us all with free will. she had her choice. Satan lied to her, God called, but she took the fruit, and hence came the first sin on earth. but God was still there. after she and her husband ate, He was walking through the garden, calling for them (His question, "where are you?" was rhetorical). sin has nothing to do with God. they had let sin in their lives, and therefore let themselves be separated.

it might go smoother if i had some context on those news stories, but i'll say something anyway about them. there's another man whose autistic daughter went missing (i think it was in florida). the man was Christian, and prayed avidly for her rescue. he felt the Lord leading him, and the man followed God's direction, and eventually found his girl, alive, in a crocodile infested swamp. they both made it out alive and well. again, i don't have any context on those other situations, but for now i'm going to say that there was deception going on. Satan is involved in every wrong doing. he can't force anyone to do anything, but he can decieve them into doing it. but God is always greater than the devil. He makes a right come sooner or later out of every wrong, whether the whole world feels it or just one family (it also is not very apparent all the time what God is doing, but i for one always keep my faith up though the storm. it always pays off)

and lastly i do not believe in karma. i know that if i confess with my mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will be saved. for it is with my heart that i believe and am justified and it is with my mouth that i confess and am saved. what is salvation according to Christians? the fact that the Lord will take me up with Him when i die and we will not be separated. in the Lord, i will live eternally as the person i am. as the person He created me to be

i haven't read the whole topic. i am replying to peace*

Edited by LJayden

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LJ - you raise so really good points. In fact, some are better than the other replies.

It's so funny how you believe what i dont, and you dont believe in what i do! :P (and vice versa...not trying to make it seem like its all about me...just saying)

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well then, here we are, two fourteen year olds in disagreement...what now?

i think i should make it clear that i don't believe in tolerism, and that's another thing people seem to get mixed up with Christians. we don't hate people who don't follow the Bible as we do. that is not who we are. i wish that people will see us Christians as those who have open doors and are a family community filled with love, family as in the way God created it.

my focus is not "getting things straight" in the life of a person who does not agree with me. i just want that person to know the love of God (which isn't very practical on a website like this. all i can do is talk about it)

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When i was on vacation and someone randomly handed me a pamphlet titled "where is your destination" *looks around for it* ahhh found it... It has a map of georgia on the cover and a truck...

anyways it says this (comments in green):

[pamphlit]

Where were you dispatched on your last trip? (New York, where i got THIS) Where are you going now? (At the time, Wicked) As a trucker, (What?) Your goal is to arrive safely at your destination. There is no certainty that you will arrive safely, but you will use all of your skills as a truck driver (When did i become a truck driver?) to attain this goal. (ok...)

However, there is a final destination that you have total control over. (read on, and you'll see i dont) At the end of your life, you will be dispatched (well that's one way to put it) either to heaven or hell. It's your choice to make. (agian, read on and you'll see it's not) Your company (God & Co.?) will have no say-so (really?) on this trip, because you are you're own dispatcher, (kay, than ill go to heaven, don't need to worry) and you have the opportunity to choose your own destination.

You could choose to spend eternity in hell, where you would suffer pain, agony, and anguish forever. Wouldn't you rather live in a place of no pain, sorrow, worries, trials, temptations, and failures? None of these exist in heaven; instead, heaven is a place of peace and happiness forever. (i must be in hell already cause i'm a temptation to make a joke here...) The Bible says that heaven has twelve foundations made of precious stones, streets of gold, walls of jasper, gates of pearl, and a refreshing river of life flowing through it. (I thought we were dead) Wouldn't you regret missing a place like this for your final destination? Sure you would! (I thought I got to decide!) Jesus, God's Son, does not want you to miss heaven either. (Then why are you later saying they're damning us to hell? Plus I thought i already chose heaven!!) When He spoke to His disciples, He told them, "In my Father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2). Jesus will prepare a place for you as well, if you will simply accept the payment He has already made for you. He shed His blood and willingly gave His life for you, so your eternal destination will be in heaven.

As a truck driver, (how'd we get back to this?) You follow a map to arrive at your destination. The Bible also gives a map which you must followin order to become a Christian and live for all eternity in heaven. (Wait - I already chose heaven. I thought God loved all of us, not just Christians. If that's so, why can only Christians go to heaven???)

ROMANS' MAP TO HEAVEN

The first stop is that you must realize you are a sinner. As the Bible states, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" (Romans 3:10) "For all have sinned, and come short the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) So your saying there's no point in being good, cause im going to hell anyways cause i sinned? And if there is NO chance whatsoever of my being good, why should i try to be all pure and saintly?

The second stop on the Roman's map is that you must realize that your sin has an eternal cost. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death..." This death is eternal separation for God in hell. Kind funny how it says "God in hell," huh? anyways, so now im going to die. but don't we all? so i've already sinned because i was born. is that why we all die?

The third stop is that you must know that you cannot save yourself or pay the cost of your sin. The Bible says, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." (Romans 3:20) So I already know that i was born sinful, and going to die anyways, and i CANT go to heaven, although you told me in the beggining that i should want to go to heaven. isn't this like taunting me??? I mean, REALLY!

Next, you must realize that God has provided the way for you to be saved. (but didn't you just say...) "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) That's so funny! i could have sworn you had just said that there was no way to be saved. your taunting me AGIAN!

Your fifth stop on the Romans' Map is that you must place your complete faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible states (funny how im seeing this a lot...) "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all then that believe..." (Romans 3:22). "That if thou shalt confess with thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Again: I thought you said i was damned for eternity. So now your adding a bit of reincarnation into the mix. Karma. I thought you said that God forgives. If so, than why are we damned because we're born?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ alone can save you? (No, I thought God could too...) He will, if you will simply ask Him. (AGAIN: Why are you contradicting yourself so often!!!) "For whosoever shall coll upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13). (You know what I would say here) If you will accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, please pray this prayer or one similar to it: (Here we go...) Dear, God, I admit I am a sinner, going to hell. (Back with that sinner thing so soon?) I know that I cannot save myself. (But you just said...) I repent of my sins (being born...) and put my faith in the blood that you shed for me on the cross to pay for all my sins. ***In blue because see what follows this bit of Christianity*** I now accept you as my Savoir (BUT I CAN'T BE SAVED!!!!) and trust you to take me to heaven. (But you just said i can't be saved. in this PRAYER!!! I mean, seriously?) Thank you for saving me. (WHAT THE HECK??? Can you say Hypocrite????) Amen.

[/pamphlit]

***Why would god sacrifice his son if we're sinned cause we're born? Jesus helped him, loved him, and he kills him. Not the kind of Father son relationship id like to have. He killed him to save us, who just happened to be a hopeless case. I REALLY dont understand this part. would someone PLEASE explain it to me!! LJ?

So yah - im done. hows that for a thing to brighten your day?

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I will try and explain some of the Roman Roads part. I probably will confuse you more, but here it goes.

ROMANS' MAP TO HEAVEN

The first stop is that you must realize you are a sinner. As the Bible states, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" (Romans 3:10) "For all have sinned, and come short the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) So your saying there's no point in being good, cause im going to hell anyways cause i sinned? And if there is NO chance whatsoever of my being good, why should i try to be all pure and saintly?

Righteous does not equal good. According to the Webster's online dictionary: 1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin. Meaning you can be good, just not righteous.

Good is being polite, having manners, etc...

Righteous is never lying, cheating, having a bad thought, etc...

I have yet to meet anyone that fits the righteous part though I have meet several good people.

The second stop on the Roman's map is that you must realize that your sin has an eternal cost. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death..." This death is eternal separation for God in hell. Kind funny how it says "God in hell," huh? anyways, so now im going to die. but don't we all? so i've already sinned because i was born. is that why we all die? Yes, everybody will die eventually (This is beacause of Adam's sin.), however, this is not talking about a physical death as in dying from a car wreck, but it is talking of a second death, in which you will be seperated from God, and you will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

The third stop is that you must know that you cannot save yourself or pay the cost of your sin. The Bible says, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." (Romans 3:20) So I already know that i was born sinful, and going to die anyways, and i CANT go to heaven, although you told me in the beggining that i should want to go to heaven. isn't this like taunting me??? I mean, REALLY! I am not exactly sure way they chose this verse, but anyways. It is not saying that you cannot go to Heaven, but that you cannot get to heaven by yourself. You need Jesus to intercede on our behalf, since are sins have made us unfit to be in God's presence in Heaven.

Next, you must realize that God has provided the way for you to be saved. (but didn't you just say...) "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) That's so funny! i could have sworn you had just said that there was no way to be saved. your taunting me AGIAN! Again, it is saying that you are not capable of getting to Heaven on your own, and that you need Jesus to act on your behalf to get into Heaven.

Your fifth stop on the Romans' Map is that you must place your complete faith in Jesus Christ. The Bible states (funny how im seeing this a lot...) "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all then that believe..." (Romans 3:22). "That if thou shalt confess with thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Again: I thought you said i was damned for eternity. So now your adding a bit of reincarnation into the mix. Karma. I thought you said that God forgives. If so, than why are we damned because we're born? This has nothing to do with reincarnation. Jesus as a human died on the cross and bore all of your sins as well as mine and LJ and every person that was living, is living now, and will live, so that we could have a way to get to Heaven, however that does not mean we get a free pass to Heaven. We still need to ask Jesus, to be our Saviour and come into our hearts.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ alone can save you? (No, I thought God could too...)They are One and the Same, along with the Holy Spirit. He will, if you will simply ask Him. (AGAIN: Why are you contradicting yourself so often!!!)Answered this already. "For whosoever shall coll upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13). (You know what I would say here) If you will accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, please pray this prayer or one similar to it: (Here we go...) Dear, God, I admit I am a sinner, going to hell. (Back with that sinner thing so soon?) I know that I cannot save myself. (But you just said...) I repent of my sins (being born...)Being born is not a sin, but you are born a sinner. and put my faith in the blood that you shed for me on the cross to pay for all my sins. ***In blue because see what follows this bit of Christianity*** I now accept you as my Savoir (BUT I CAN'T BE SAVED!!!!) and trust you to take me to heaven. (But you just said i can't be saved. in this PRAYER!!! I mean, seriously?) Thank you for saving me. (WHAT THE HECK??? Can you say Hypocrite????) Amen.

[/pamphlit]

***Why would god sacrifice his son if we're sinned cause we're born? Jesus helped him, loved him, and he kills him. Not the kind of Father son relationship id like to have. He killed him to save us, who just happened to be a hopeless case. I REALLY dont understand this part. would someone PLEASE explain it to me!! LJ?

So yah - im done. hows that for a thing to brighten your day?

I hope that I did not create even more confusion. I really should have been able to answer this better than what I did. But I hope that it did help a little bit.

Edited by Framm 18

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I will try and explain some of the Roman Roads part. I probably will confuse you more, but here it goes.

I hope that I did not create even more confusion. I really should have been able to answer this better than what I did. But I hope that it did help a little bit.

nope - that did help me make sence of it...

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(going from start to finish, answering as many q's as i can)

the whole truck driver thing is most likely a metaphor to help put the Romans' Road into perspective. You drive the truck, the truck represents your life, and the company you're driving represents those in your life (i.e. friends, family, etc.) and you have your choice of destination. Since God has given us all free will, you are the dispatcher, and those in your life can't tell you where you are going to go. They can tell you truths or lies about the places to try and convince you which way to go, but it still is your choice on which one.

and yes, God loves everyone no matter what. He just doesn't like sin. and perhaps there is a misunderstanding about Christians here.

you have the choice of which road to take, the one to heaven, or the others to hell. yes, there are more than two routes, and yes, there is only one to heaven, and that is Jesus Christ.

moving onto the Roman's Road...

(3:10, 23) it is a progressive road, in the beginning, we are born into sin because of our fallen nature due to Adam and Eve's sins.

(6:23) they cut out a bit of the verse here: "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." see here, God is willing to accept us into His kingdom and eternal life!

it looks like there was a typo there..."this death is eternal separation for God in hell." i believe what is really being said is that the death is separation from God, us being in hell. it is an eternal death, spending eternity in hell, separated from the life of God, "living" the moment of death forever. not very pleasant

(3:20) man is mortal and is born sinful ever since the fall, but now that Christ has died for us, we are given the choice to go to heaven. the verse is saying that by our own efforts, we cannot save ourselves, but must let Christ intervene and save us. it doesn't mean we are hopelessly condemned to hell; Jesus is our hope! you do want to go to heaven? go to Jesus! he is more than willing!

they only put a small section of the final verse in the Road

(10:9-10) "that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your hearts that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved, for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." as Framm said, it isn't reincarnation, it is the new life given to us by Christ. spiritually, when we accept Christ genuinely, an old "self" of our lives is killed, and a new one takes its place in our lives, one that lives eternally, even after the physical death.

again, as Framm said, Jesus Christ, God the Father, and Holy Spirit are one Trinity. that's just one of the mind-boggling things about Him. as for the prayer, i can't say i'm in full agreement. as Romans 10:9-10 lays out, it is very simple to get saved. genuinely confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in Him and His death and Resurrection and you're on the road to heaven to be with Him.

we can be saved, but He is the only Way.

as for the Father-Son relationship, as Framm and I mentioned before, they are One, of One mind and will. Jesus, as God, was willing to die for His children (you, me, Framm, and every other in mankind). God, as Jesus, turned Himself over into man's hand for them to do with Him as they pleased. and with that being done, we are no longer a hopeless case.

any more questions, just PM me or post again

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I don't want to get too involved in this matter as it is after all a discussion of the finer points of beliefs which I consider to be entirely nonsensical.

However, I found your post very interesting peace*out, and I'd like to give an atheist's perspective on a couple of your objections:

Personally, after reading this topic, i think i am leaning even farther toward atheism. I was before, but im so close im almost falling.
Please try not to think of it as "falling", as that's your Christian conditioning speaking.

if listened, and read church stories to the 3/4 year olds (whoever said they're forcing religion on those kids, you're right).
I beg you not to continue to be a party to such conditioning.

yet another point is that god made eve. he made her curious. he made her take that apple. unless, you're saying that eve is now a separate being, and that god now had nothing to do with her. but then what about now? why are we acting like our lives are all about god?
I think that "free will" is the usual response to that. However, it doesn't change the fact that the "Fall of Man" is one of the more objectionable parts of the Bible, responsible for a great deal of angst and self-hate amongst the faithful. This is no accident. By teaching us that we are unworthy and indeed guilty simply by the fact of our existence, the Bible creates a reliance on religion since we are clearly told that the only way out of this predicament is to go along with what the religion requires (as in your trucking pamphlet). It's a very cruel form of control, and particularly unpleasant within catholicism. It's similar to many forms of military training, first they break you down and tell you how worthless you are, then they build up a sense of self worth which depends on your functioning as part of the military unit. It's interesting how the nakedness of Adam and Eve is a symbol of our shame. That's a remarkably effective ploy as we all know that we are naked underneath our clothes, and if we can be made to feel ashamed of the very substance of our bodies, so much greater is the control that can be exerted upon us.

Along similar lines, I stumbled on these

on YouTube which I thought too good not to share (though his comments on failures of the clergy may be more appropriate to the UK).

I recommend you read "The God Delusion" by way of getting another perspective.

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i'd like to point out that there is no such thing as being non-religious. Every single person alive and in history believed in some sort of religion, whether it is polytheistic, monotheistic, or atheistic.

there is a difference between being born as a sin, and being born bent towards sin. being that there are so many different forms of monotheism, there are many discrepancies between Christian denominations. but Christians aren't purposed to make people feel terrible about their existence. we want people to know how much God as their Father loves them and wants to save them. He hates sin, not the people who have sinned. and yes, just as a human body has many members with different functions, every person has a place in the body of Christ.

Adam and Eve's nakedness is not the symbol of our shame. rather, the sin of the eating of the fruit despite God's command not to is our symbol of shame. it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. when they ate, they saw their nakedness and covered themselves. sin is the symbol of our shame. the two would have been much less ashamed if they didn't eat the fruit and kept on living in God's presence. Christians do not want to make people feel ashamed of their bodies, the human is fearfully and wonderfully made by God, no doubt about that.

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i'd like to point out that there is no such thing as being non-religious. Every single person alive and in history believed in some sort of religion, whether it is polytheistic, monotheistic, or atheistic.
I really must pull you up on that. Atheism is not a religion nor does it even define your religious status. You could be atheist and religious (as are some taoists and buddhists), or atheist and non-religious. Atheism simply identifies your approach to theism, specifically that you don't buy it.

Christians aren't purposed to make people feel terrible about their existence. we want people to know how much God as their Father loves them and wants to save them.
This is exactly what I'm talking about with the military-style conditioning. You are allowed a sense of worth, but only as a function of your adherence to the belief system.

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