Evidence of God's Design

[Guest]

learn history christianity was spread by the sword as well, even neglecting the crusades, look at what happened in germany.

and yes it is easier to believe in god but that doesnt make god more likely, also belief in god is NOT belief in your interventionist god only in some all powerful being creating the universe. it has been said before many peopel believe in god simply because they cant wrap their brains around the universe just being so they put it off on some other simpler(in the sense 1 single entity) thing having created it. If you base your belief on the fact that smarter people than you say there is a god what about those who are more intelligent than you who say he doesnt?

havent refutred anything?

ive refuted your proof jesus was resurected

ive refuted your denial of evolution

ive refuted your comprehenshion of earths orbit

ive refuted your comprehension of gravity

ive refuted your belief that the bible you read is exactly as written.

hmm what other claims have you made? too lazy to go back and see them all.

oh yeah ive refuted your claim that i beleive god does not exist (though i do KNOW with 100% certainty that god as you believe him to exist does not exist, so if your looking at it that way then ok ill throw ya a bone so to speak.)

what you say is not rubbish to me im just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

And the flaws in your logic? refuting anything is possible, proving it with the logic you claim to use to Me is not good enough. You can't prove Jesus was not resurrected, forms of species evolving are not my problem nor do I think it does not happen, for the fourth time!

You better go study a little more on the earths orbit.

My comprehension of gravity is combined with the expansion rate stated by smarter men than us.

Have you ever heard what philosophers have said about FIRST CAUSE?

Edited July 14, 2010 by hambone

[Guest]

Really, if you think about it, faith is the most ultimate paradox. In order to have faith, you can not have proof because once you prove something, it does not require faith any more. I think this is really what gets to people when it comes to religion. There are always people trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. However, becuase there is evidence for both sides of the case, ultimately, you have to pick one answer and stand faithfully behind it because there is no ultimate proof for either explanation.

It amuses me when people say you have to have faith to believe in God. The truth is, you have to have faith to believe that God doesn't exist as well. You have to have faith to believe in anything really. Non-belief in God is not a lack of faith, it is simply faith in the science that seems to dis-prove the existence of God. Its always a choice. If you are a believer, your response is that it was designed to be a choice because we have free will and God wants us to choose to believe in him. If you are not a believer, your response will be that this is a cop-out because you can't respond to this scientifically.

Unfortunately, there can be no proof to either side. Its just a choice you have to make for yourself. I made my choice long ago, as did most people. In psychological terms, assignment of religious beliefs occurs when you are young and tends to stick. No matter what anyone tells you, once you have decided, you are done. I was raised Christian and will remain Christian because it is what I know and it is what I am comfortable with. This does not mean I can not understand other's points of views. Its just that their arguments for the truth are no more or less convincing than my own arguments for the truth so I see no point in changing my views. When we are all arguing with the same data, its easy to go in circles XD

[Guest]

Really, if you think about it, faith is the most ultimate paradox. In order to have faith, you can not have proof because once you prove something, it does not require faith any more. I think this is really what gets to people when it comes to religion. There are always people trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. However, becuase there is evidence for both sides of the case, ultimately, you have to pick one answer and stand faithfully behind it because there is no ultimate proof for either explanation.

It amuses me when people say you have to have faith to believe in God. The truth is, you have to have faith to believe that God doesn't exist as well. You have to have faith to believe in anything really. Non-belief in God is not a lack of faith, it is simply faith in the science that seems to dis-prove the existence of God. Its always a choice. If you are a believer, your response is that it was designed to be a choice because we have free will and God wants us to choose to believe in him. If you are not a believer, your response will be that this is a cop-out because you can't respond to this scientifically.

Unfortunately, there can be no proof to either side. Its just a choice you have to make for yourself. I made my choice long ago, as did most people. In psychological terms, assignment of religious beliefs occurs when you are young and tends to stick. No matter what anyone tells you, once you have decided, you are done. I was raised Christian and will remain Christian because it is what I know and it is what I am comfortable with. This does not mean I can not understand other's points of views. Its just that their arguments for the truth are no more or less convincing than my own arguments for the truth so I see no point in changing my views. When we are all arguing with the same data, its easy to go in circles XD

Great post mevuc.

[andromeda]

OFF TOPIC: Seriously?! This is a Forum for riddles!

We DO NOT need to read SLOWLY!

Or you're just trying to be sarcastic

HEADS UP: You don't need to use spoilers unless you actually want to put something in them, it's just dangling there at the top of the page without any actual purpose, I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but... stop using spoilers dude

[Guest]

For Quag.

Diameter of the Earths orbit. hypertextbook.com/facts/2004/CherisseBarnes.shtml

Mars orbit for example. cmex.ihmc.us/SiteCat/sitecat2/mars.htm

My comment that the Earths obit is circular is Okay a little off, but the distance difference from the closest to the furthest is still within a life sustaining distance. While every other planet has major differences from the closest to the furthest distance. Way to Hot for life, or much to cold.

Edit: couple of sites to look at.

Edited July 14, 2010 by hambone

[Guest]

OFF TOPIC: Seriously?! This is a Forum for riddles!

We DO NOT need to read SLOWLY!

Or you're just trying to be sarcastic

HEADS UP: You don't need to use spoilers unless you actually want to put something in them, it's just dangling there at the top of the page without any actual purpose, I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but... stop using spoilers dude

Sorry andromeda, I was being a smarta**. The read slowly was not directed to everyone, again sorry

Edit: spelling, I'm a little anal about spelling, and other things.

Edited July 14, 2010 by hambone

[Guest]

325a.d. The gospels were already written. Listen Quag, if (and I do use IF in the loosest possible way) if this was one big lie. Even in a remote area as Israel, though not as remote as you think; controlled by a Roman Procurator very populated at that time, anyway-- This was a very controversial thing that took place. You do understand that right. If it were a Lie it would have been even harder to get any kind of foundation to stand upon and grow. If it were not true I promise you it would have been squashed as a false religion instantly. Religion is a HUGE deal in that part of the world even today. The middle east DOES NOT think as most of the world does- separation of religion from anything is not in the way they think. It is everything they think and live and breath.

What about Mormonism and Scientology? They are both religions based of the ideas of one guy that have caught on. I assume that you believe them to be false. Even so, there are a significant number of people who adhere to their beliefs. If false religions would be squashed in the face of true religions, why did Mormonism and Scientology survive? By your reasoning, it sounds like we have to be Judeo-Christian-Islamo-Mormon-Scientologists, since all of those religions are still around today (I stuck with just the Western religions since you could create a whole other branch for the Eastern religions).

And just a quick point about Earth's orbit. As has been stated, it is an elliptical orbit, but contrary to conventional wisdom, Summer/Winter occurs during the period of our orbit when we are farthest from the Sun. The change in the distance from the Sun is so insignificant that we don't feel any change. The change in seasons occurs from the axial tile of the Earth, 23 degrees from upright. The side more directly facing the Sun has Summer and the other hemisphere, which is turned away from the Sun has Winter. Science is not always intuitive.

[Quag]

I refuted your Proof of jesus resurection and pointed out a more plausible explanation

the earth orbit is NOT circular, and a circular orbit is not necessarily a precondition of life. There is mounting evidence of the possibility that life once existed on mars. Then again this is all based on life existing in our current carbon based form. never seen any proof other forms cant exist.

you claim gravity is holding the expansion/contaction of the universe in perfect balance. just not true so yeah that dont wash. you claim you admit evolution exists but far to often 2-3 posts later you attack evolution again.

yes great post mevuc. funny how the believer in creation likes the post that basically says it is impossible for there to be any evidence of creation as that would be against the idea of faith

[Guest]

What about Mormonism and Scientology? They are both religions based of the ideas of one guy that have caught on. I assume that you believe them to be false. Even so, there are a significant number of people who adhere to their beliefs. If false religions would be squashed in the face of true religions, why did Mormonism and Scientology survive? By your reasoning, it sounds like we have to be Judeo-Christian-Islamo-Mormon-Scientologists, since all of those religions are still around today (I stuck with just the Western religions since you could create a whole other branch for the Eastern religions).

And just a quick point about Earth's orbit. As has been stated, it is an elliptical orbit, but contrary to conventional wisdom, Summer/Winter occurs during the period of our orbit when we are farthest from the Sun. The change in the distance from the Sun is so insignificant that we don't feel any change. The change in seasons occurs from the axial tile of the Earth, 23 degrees from upright. The side more directly facing the Sun has Summer and the other hemisphere, which is turned away from the Sun has Winter. Science is not always intuitive.

All very good, all I am trying to show is evidence of God's Design Not we just happened by chance. As far as false religions go, You will always have them. There can always only be ONE TRUTH. you can choose all of them as true or none of them as true, there is a God or there is no God. I believe there can only be one true God. By now you all know which one. Have not even talked about archaeological evidence yet. About the Earth's orbit. I know it's elliptical, though it is closer to a full circular orbit compared to every other planet. you mentioned 23 degrees, do you know what would be the result of just a couple of degrees difference?

[onetruth]

All very good, all I am trying to show is evidence of God's Design Not we just happened by chance. As far as false religions go, You will always have them. There can always only be ONE TRUTH. you can choose all of them as true or none of them as true, there is a God or there is no God. I believe there can only be one true God. By now you all know which one. Have not even talked about archaeological evidence yet. About the Earth's orbit. I know it's elliptical, though it is closer to a full circular orbit compared to every other planet. you mentioned 23 degrees, do you know what would be the result of just a couple of degrees difference?

You keep saying my name. Of course, your reason for using it is why I chose it.

[Guest]

Quag maybe it's just me, but you have a very offensive and attacking personality in your posts. No need. I said good post to mavuc, because there is a very non-confrontational way to make your points. Keep in mind I started this post with the intentions of answering a question that Izzy had presented in another topic. The name of this post is Evidence of God's Design so for you to see me post what (I Believe) is evidence should be expected. Your posts are a little attacking that's all. Easier to give someone medicine when it's mixed with Honey.

[Guest]

You keep saying my name. Of course, your reason for using it is why I chose it.

What are you saying here onetruth? just that I don't want to assume.

[onetruth]

As far as false religions go, You will always have them. There can always only be ONE TRUTH. you can choose all of them as true or none of them as true, there is a God or there is no God. I believe there can only be one true God. By now you all know which one.

That's what I mean. I haven't read through this thread, and I wouldn't get involved even if I did. But I am an evangelical who fully believes the Bible...I majored in apologetics and a Christian college. I sing on my church's praise team.

I used to have a board that I debated on, just as much as people do on here, when I was in high school and college. But I've decided that it's too time-consuming for me to participate. But if anyone were to ask me...There is only onetruth, one God, and that is what is written in the Bible.

Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you before I read more about what you believe, but I agree with those statements above.

To be a little more on topic...One of my kids' favorite places to go is the Kennedy Space Center. They have a new 3D movie about the Hubble Telescope, narrated by Leonardo Dicaprio. I had goosebumps by the end. It shows stars and galaxies, and new galaxies that are forming around stars. Billions. And yet in all of those galaxies, none exist that could sustain human life the way earth does. In fact, none of them contain life. It isn't an accident that we are here. We were created by a creative God who created an amazing universe for his pleasure. And for our pleasure. It is amazing! And it isn't an accident.

[Guest]

Thank you onetruth, I believe as you do, I drum now at my church, I believe the Bible Genesis to Revelation. I did not think that this would go this far, as I believe that others posting here did not think it would go this far. Maybe thought they could over power it with worldly knowledge. We both know what God says about the wisdom of the world.

[Guest]

That's what I mean. I haven't read through this thread, and I wouldn't get involved even if I did. But I am an evangelical who fully believes the Bible...I majored in apologetics and a Christian college. I sing on my church's praise team.

I used to have a board that I debated on, just as much as people do on here, when I was in high school and college. But I've decided that it's too time-consuming for me to participate. But if anyone were to ask me...There is only onetruth, one God, and that is what is written in the Bible.

Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you before I read more about what you believe, but I agree with those statements above.

To be a little more on topic...One of my kids' favorite places to go is the Kennedy Space Center. They have a new 3D movie about the Hubble Telescope, narrated by Leonardo Dicaprio. I had goosebumps by the end. It shows stars and galaxies, and new galaxies that are forming around stars. Billions. And yet in all of those galaxies, none exist that could sustain human life the way earth does. In fact, none of them contain life. It isn't an accident that we are here. We were created by a creative God who created an amazing universe for his pleasure. And for our pleasure. It is amazing! And it isn't an accident.

Onetruth, I just want to point out that we can't see the planets in star systems in our own galaxy, let alone the planets in other galaxies. So we don't know that there is no life anywhere else in the Universe. It's a big place. You can argue about his numbers, but a scientist Frank Drake created an equation to estimate the likelihood of other sentient life existing in the galaxy. He determined that it was actually quite probable. Until we examine all of the planets that we can find, we'll never know either way. But it's intellectually dishonest to say that we ARE the only life in the Universe, since we really have no way of knowing.

That's in large part what this "debate" has been about. When hambone says he doesn't know, he says "It must be God," when the rest of us say we don't know, we say, "We don't know." Lack of information is not a basis for a sound decision and it's not proof of anything, other than the need for more data.

Of course, I also like the Flake Equation.

[Guest]

Onetruth does not want to participate in this topic and has stated that, I don't blame her. A lot of attack from opposition, let me ask what evidence would be enough for any of you to believe in God?

Edited July 14, 2010 by hambone

[Guest]

gotta go to work, be back later more good evidence of why (I) believe in God's Design.

[Guest]

How about the Earths circular orbit? Every one of the other planets in our solar system circles the Sun in an elliptical orbit, not in the virtually perfect circular orbit of 93 million miles that the Earth does, our solar system's sole exception. (etc...}

More malicious disinformation. For starters, a circle is simply an ellipse with no eccentricity (E=0). So, it is deliberately misleading to state that Earth's orbit is nearly circular, but that the orbits of the other planets are elliptical. I present to you the actual orbital eccentricities of the planets of our solar system (0 = circular orbit):

Mercury: 0.206

Venus: 0.007

Earth: 0.0167

Mars: 0.093

Jupiter: 0.048

Saturn: 0.054

Uranus: 0.046

Neptune: 0.010

Pluto: 0.248

As you can see, with the exception of Mercury and Pluto, the orbits of all the planets are very nearly circular. Even Pluto's eccentricity of 0.25 is difficult to distinguish from a circle with the naked eye. Also, two planets (Venus and Neptune) have more circular orbits than Earth, although for E<0.1, it is hardly worth making the distinction. The argument you present here is uncategorically false, and based on deliberate and blatant lies.

[Guest]

You do a lot of quoting of famous scientists (mainly out of context), concluding by adding "s/he is/was a smarter person than me/you/us, so it must be true." Not only are you misrepresenting the facts, and that figure's position, but you are also committing the fallacy known as "Argumentum ad verecundiam" (Appeal to Authority), the assumption that because somebody is smart, they must be right about everything. Einstein was most notably (and admittedly) wrong about Quantum physics, and Newton's life work was trying to synthesize gold from common materials.

In February 1992 an article in the Scientific American magazine noted that evolutionists have a new bizarre theory panspermia. Some of the evolutionary scientists who admit that life could never have spontaneously evolved on Earth have made a novel suggestion that either the prebiotic soup or Lifeforms themselves evolved elsewhere and were brought to Earth in the distant past from another galaxy. I don't think this is science at all more like science fiction! If mathematical probabilities make evolution impossible on Earth, then the same extraordinary odds make evolution impossible in any other galaxy or Universe, no matter how many billions of years scientists imagine they have.

For starters, calling the theory "bizarre", and referring to it as "science fiction" is prejudicial. You also choose to omit relevant evidence that undermines your argument. By doing so, you leave the audience with the impression that scientists believe we were brought here by extraterrestrials on spaceships, whereas in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Without this deliberate distortion of the facts, your argument is non-existent. The theory states that organic and/or prebiotic matter may have arrived in one or more of the several million meteorites that have impacted Earth. The fact that such matter has actually been recovered from recent meteorite impacts suggests this theory is not far-fetched.

This intellectual desperation of the scientists reveals two important facts.

1. Evolution is finally collapsing due to the total absence of evidence in its favor and the problems with the theory that life evolved by chance.

2. The desperation to accept any alternative variation in the theory to support evolution reveals the real motive for holding on the this discredited theory.

Wrong on both counts. It is neither collapsing, lacking in evidence, nor is anybody desperately clinging to belief in it. I find it extremely ironic that you would make that last statement (twice now that you've brought that up), because it is, in fact, you who clings desperately to dogma in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I say evolution can and has happened but not to the point of we came from apes

NEWS FLASH: HOMO SAPIENS IS A SPECIES OF APE.

[Guest]

I refuted your Proof of jesus resurection and pointed out a more plausible explanation

the earth orbit is NOT circular, and a circular orbit is not necessarily a precondition of life. There is mounting evidence of the possibility that life once existed on mars. Then again this is all based on life existing in our current carbon based form. never seen any proof other forms cant exist.

you claim gravity is holding the expansion/contaction of the universe in perfect balance. just not true so yeah that dont wash. you claim you admit evolution exists but far to often 2-3 posts later you attack evolution again.

yes great post mevuc. funny how the believer in creation likes the post that basically says it is impossible for there to be any evidence of creation as that would be against the idea of faith

I didn't necessarily say there can be no evidence for creation, i just said there is no irrefutable proof. Evidence is left up to interpretation and where human experience differs, interpreation also will differ. As I stated, we are all working with the same facts and it is up to each individuals mind as to what these facts prove.

In example, you took my post to be evidence that your argument is correct. The same can be said for hambone. Each of you took the same facts presented in my statement to back up your side of the story because each of you found truth relevant to your way of thinking. All I stated were facts, you each took the facts and interpreted them to prove your own case.

[Guest]

And yet in all of those galaxies, none exist that could sustain human life the way earth does. In fact, none of them contain life.

None that we know of. Considering that we have only observed a handful of other planets, out of trillions, we are unable to conclude whether or not there is extra-terrestrial life. If you went to a beach, examined a dozen grains of sand, and found that none was a coral fragment, would you be confident in asserting that the beach contained no coral?

[Quag]

Actually mevuc if you read my original post way way back when it is pretty much the same as yours. to paraphrase myself we have no proof that god exists or doesnt exist. all the evidence anyone has presented here could be just as well used by either side of the arguement. Where hambone and i fall out is when he gets his science wrong, or states his beliefs as facts. ie the proof of jesus being god.

[andromeda]

Actually mevuc if you read my original post way way back when it is pretty much the same as yours. to paraphrase myself we have no proof that god exists or doesnt exist. all the evidence anyone has presented here could be just as well used by either side of the arguement. Where hambone and i fall out is when he gets his science wrong, or states his beliefs as facts. ie the proof of jesus being god.

Er... how can someone be his own father?!

I'm not asking you to give an answer, but the people that think they know the answer

[Guest]

There is a time paradox involving you going back in time and having a child with your mother, that child being you. Maybe Jesus became god, then he went back in time to become his own father.

[Guest]

More malicious disinformation. For starters, a circle is simply an ellipse with no eccentricity (E=0). So, it is deliberately misleading to state that Earth's orbit is nearly circular, but that the orbits of the other planets are elliptical. I present to you the actual orbital eccentricities of the planets of our solar system (0 = circular orbit):

Mercury: 0.206

Venus: 0.007

Earth: 0.0167

Mars: 0.093

Jupiter: 0.048

Saturn: 0.054

Uranus: 0.046

Neptune: 0.010

Pluto: 0.248

As you can see, with the exception of Mercury and Pluto, the orbits of all the planets are very nearly circular. Even Pluto's eccentricity of 0.25 is difficult to distinguish from a circle with the naked eye. Also, two planets (Venus and Neptune) have more circular orbits than Earth, although for E<0.1, it is hardly worth making the distinction. The argument you present here is uncategorically false, and based on deliberate and blatant lies.

Brilliant, now tell me how close each planet gets to the Sun compared to the most distant it gets.