Evidence of God's Design

[Izzy]

If you don't believe in evolution I don't want to hear anything you have to say. Nothing you will type will be biologically sound. It's a waste of both of our time.

Actually. Go ahead and type up the cell. I'll let you know if you go wrong.

[Guest]

#6 THE CELL In 1963, scientists finally penetrated the initial cellular wall examined the interior-once thought to be a simple biological structure. The major portion was believed to be nothing more than a jelly-like substance that biologists called protoplasm. Means "Living Structure". George Palade, a professor of the Rockefeller Institute in New York, made a discovery that changed the science of biology. he discovered an incredibly complex system operating in the cell that is the basis of all forms of life. The scientists identified this internal protoplasm system as the "endoplasmic reticulum."

Izzy a virtual microscopic Universe that involved a massive maze of infinitely microscopic tubes as wall as tiny cells within cells that permeated the "Simple Cell". Many scientists now acknowledge that the cell actually contains the most complex system ever found in the Universe. The surface of these cells that form our bodies are protected by a membrane that is less than a third of a millionth of an inch thick. yet the cell wall is able to control both the entry and exit of thousands of chemicals, enzymes, and proteins that are essential for life to exist. Whenever any one of the trillion cells in our body needs a hormone, an enzyme, a vitamin, a chemical, or a protein, or needs to get rid of harmful waste, the cell communicated with the rest of our body, and the bloodstream sends vital fluid over seventy-five thousand miles of veins, arteries, and capillaries that reach every single cell of our body to provide nutrients and eliminate waste products. These trillions of cells perform complex functions. These functions include: energy generation; defense against biological invaders; intricate communication links to trillions of other cells simultaneously; communication links within and without the cell; transportation systems to move nutritional products; waste disposal to eliminate harmful toxins; A professor once wrote about the cell "It is astonishing to think that this remarkable piece of machinery, which possesses the ultimate capacity to construct every living thing that ever existed on Earth, from giant red wood trees to the human brain, can construct all its own components in a matter of minutes and weigh less than 10 -16 power in grams. It is of the order of several thousand million million times smaller than the smallest piece of functional machinery ever constructed by man (until man recently invented nanotechnology).

Edited July 10, 2010 by hambone

[Izzy]

Okay. I'm going to assume with all of that (Whether you came up with it yourself or used links is beyond me and irrelevent), you know how cells reproduce right? ..And you know with the BILLIONS of sells in your body, there are going to be errors and gene mutations, right? Hence, evolution. Case closed.

Enjoy:

[Guest]

You choose your way I choose mine, Is this okay with you?

[Guest]

By the way we all learn from somewhere, I don't suppose you have come up with all your theories yourself?

[Izzy]

I did not nor did I claim to. But I actually took the time to learn the oppostion (and that's more than just Christianity ). Seriously, go read God: The Failed Hypothesis. Short read, like $15 at your local BnR. We're in the same state, you can gladly borrow my copy. (But that'd be creepy, so just go buy it, haha.)

[Guest]

I did not nor did I claim to. But I actually took the time to learn the oppostion (and that's more than just Christianity ). Seriously, go read God: The Failed Hypothesis. Short read, like $15 at your local BnR. We're in the same state, you can gladly borrow my copy. (But that'd be creepy, so just go buy it, haha.)

And after you study the Word of God with the Hebrew and Greek Lexicon we will get along just fine.

Edited July 10, 2010 by hambone

[Izzy]

I took and aced a World Religions class. I think I'm in the clear here.

Here I was under the impression we were getting along just fine. =0

[Guest]

I am going to leave you now, lots of sleeping to do. Til another time Izzy.

[Izzy]

Peace to the out broski.

edit: typo

Edited July 10, 2010 by Izzy

[EDM]

I took and aced a World Religions class. I think I'm in the clear here.

Here I was under the impression we were getting along just fine. =0

hmm.....Izzy, considering you took a World Religious class, I can't believe that you still don't understand much about religion.......

Yes.....if you want to say that there is evolution; there is.....I know about it all...But Evolution can just be a way of God 'designing & creating' the earth? It makes enough sense to safely say that......

[plasmid]

Hm, the very things you saw that make you have faith in God are the things that make me want to learn more about biology. All that stuff, arising out of a genome encoding only about thirty thousand genes (and of course a bunch of non-protein-coding regulatory elements that shouldn't be short changed). It's remarkable how well that little program works. But to me a genome seems less like evidence of a vastly more complex creator and more like an example of how intricate and beautiful emergent properties can be.

[Izzy]

hmm.....Izzy, considering you took a World Religious class, I can't believe that you still don't understand much about religion.......

I actually know quite a bit. You're basing my "knowledge" off of my belief, rather than my actual comprehension of the material. I'm curious, how much do you actually know about the religions other than your own? Are you positive you are making an informed decision with your life's dedication rather than just accepting the one you were born into? Why Christianity opposed to Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism (just naming the major ones).

Also. Plasmid, beautifully worded.

[Guest]

very interesting topic, that we have here.

I do not believe in Divine Creation (mostly because we stil have ape-like parts in our body), neither do I fully believe the Evolution Theorie (mostly because of the theorie part, which means nothing is proven).

I in fact hold in mind several theories that I find plausible:

- the earth was already ready for life 500 miljoen years ago, yet the first life form was some kind of insect which "started living" on earth 200-250 miljoen years ago. so I believe that we already existed, but almost f***ed up the planet like we do now, so we desided to take a do-over (not the most plausible (explanation)).

- we were from the very beginning an already excisting race, which simply addapted it's DNA to be able to live on earth.

clues are for example the egyptians.

* the build fricking piramides in line with the stars, which means that they where skilled in astrologie.

* the build the piramides themselfs, till today still world wonders.

there are more civilizations (like the maya's) that I can use, but I don't want to hammer on the subject.

- the thirth one is complex and involves only me so I'm not going to explain it

Edited July 10, 2010 by UNfire

[EDM]

I actually know quite a bit. You're basing my "knowledge" off of my belief, rather than my actual comprehension of the material. I'm curious, how much do you actually know about the religions other than your own? Are you positive you are making an informed decision with your life's dedication rather than just accepting the one you were born into? Why Christianity opposed to Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism (just naming the major ones).

Also. Plasmid, beautifully worded.

I actually know a lot more than most 17 yr olds.... (and i'm proud of it....)

Yes.....I've made my choice to be christian; it's what I've decided alone......like i've said before; if I want to change, I'll change......but i have made my choice.

Anyway; all the religions of the world have a common ground; the belief in a Divine Power.........that's enough for me....

[Guest]

No one is born into Christianity. There are a lot of religions of the earth Izzy I know and have learned about most all of them. The one that is TRUE is the God of Abraham. I don't need to prove to anyone what I know or have learned about other religions. The others are false a lie. Only one God Loved you enough to send his son to die for You. Allah, wants your son to die for him.

[EDM]

actually, hambone......that is not true about Islam.......the son dying for Allah is what the extremists say; they take it out of context......kinda like paparazzi taking celebs comments out of context.........or like how christianity was in the olde days......that crazy power thing....

[Guest]

I know E, That does not change the fact that Jesus died for us, paid a price we could never pay.

[EDM]

of course it doesn't!!

i just wanted to make that small change.....

Edited July 10, 2010 by EDM

[Guest]

All of you "This whole universe just happened or was always here" should read a Book, sounds like you know what they are,

This one is called 'The Deep Forces That Shape the Universe' by Sir Martin Rees. He is an Astronomer. A smart one too.

He is not a Bible Thumper as you might think. FACINATING READ I PROMISE.

[Guest]

All of you "This whole universe just happened or was always here" should read a Book, sounds like you know what they are,

This one is called 'The Deep Forces That Shape the Universe' by Sir Martin Rees. He is an Astronomer. A smart one too.

He is not a Bible Thumper as you might think. FACINATING READ I PROMISE.

you could at least Google him and his book.

[Quag]

I must say I like this topic. Thank you hambone for posting it. In fact it is the reason I signed up just so I may partake in this discussion.

As to the actual subject on gods design being an agnostic I have no clue as to weather god had anything to do with the design of the universe or not. And frankly I don’t think it is relevant in any meaningful way, just as god existence or non existence is completely irrelevant. Having said that I am completely fascinated by the subject of religion. To be more precise that anyone can actually believe in any religion at all (not in gods existence but actual religion and the bible, Koran or any other religious text).

Now I don’t think IZZY put forward very good arguments mostly due to personal attacks but hambone neither have you. I will try to remain more civil with my comments.

Evolution is not just a theory it is a proven FACT!! It does exits and has been proven to exist. What most people refer to when speaking of the "Theory of evolution" is in fact the genesis of life on earth and/or the creation/evolution of the human species. For the first part evolution does not in any way shape or form explain the genesis of life on earth. Darwin was in fact a religious man who sat on his work for a very long time (if memory serves 2 decades)cant be bothered to look it up as the books are packed away at home (wife doesn’t think I should have so many books). As to the actual "descent of man" yes Darwin’s terms again, that is just a theory still it has not been proven but the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of Darwin on this one. I am referring to the fossil record here. Chances are it will never be able to be proven 100%. The evidence for an evolutionary descent of the human species is however infinitely stronger than that of god creating the world 6k years ago. Proof of which is derived only from religious texts and some dubious calculations based on assumed ages of people mentioned in the bible. IF you wish to claim on the age of the earth as 6k yrs and Adam and Eve as being created by god as the first people on earth. Then there is nothing to debate. It is i'm sorry to say rather ridiculous. A man and a woman who only had 2 sons populating the earth?? Not gonna fly. If you wish to say that god created the universe and set things in motion so that we arrive at where we are now. Then the arguments for/against are just as weak as each other.

Hambone you claimed it required faith to believe that the universe always existed, just as it does to believe that god exists. I have to say as an Agnostic it requires absolutely no faith to say that I do not know the answer to the question and never will. Though it is an interesting question, it is irrelevant.

As to faith, I am at least as strongly convinced if not more so than you, that your religious beliefs, like everyone’s who follows any organized religion, are wrong. I am sorry but there is no way Jesus was the son of god. Logically it makes no sense. IF god existed why would he send his son to some backward sparsely populated land to spread his word? There were much better places to send him. Aside from the obvious that comes to peoples minds (ROME) why not south/north America? Ok less populated and more difficult to spread the word due to difficulties in communication between different areas. More importantly why not in China?? Larger more homogenous population, longer historical record. It makes no sense. If there is an interventionist god who is omniscient/omnipotent why not just speak to everyone at once directly and say the exact same thing. This would end any confusion and debate on the issue. As it happens we have a myriad of religions that often have a few basic tenants in common. We also have had non ending strife more often between different sects of the same religion than between different religions. Usually about completely inane and unimportant matters.

I will give you this Jesus gave us the golden rule the only part of the bible that is really important. No need for a god to have people to try and follow that however.

I know I sound more like an atheist than an agnostic. But no need for much verbiage with atheists all you can say to them is. YOU CANNOT PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST. Hence no point in dwelling on that.

So back to the main point is there any evidence of gods design. Yes and no. If you choose to see it as such you will if you choose to see it as a complex and unpredictable unfolding of the universe you will see that as well.

If you choose to say I don’t know

Edited July 10, 2010 by Quag

[Izzy]

I do not believe in Divine Creation (mostly because we stil have ape-like parts in our body), neither do I fully believe the Evolution Theorie (mostly because of the theorie part, which means nothing is proven).

Dude, theory = fact, with like 99.99999% certainty. The scientific definition of theory is a lot stronger than your "general" theory. A scientific theory is something proposed as an explanation for EMPIRICAL phenomena, which was been bsaed off of experients, tested, and retested, with th same results, consistent with the scientific method. Such theories are preferably described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand, verify, and challenge (or "falsify") it. This has been applied to evolution SO many times, and it still stands as a sound scientific theory because it has been challeneged, verified, and reverified so many times.

After all, gravity is only a theory.

Yo, I just woke up. Replied to this post because it was the first one I saw. I'll get on the other in a bit.

[Izzy]

I actually know a lot more than most 17 yr olds.... (and i'm proud of it....)

Yes.....I've made my choice to be christian; it's what I've decided alone......like i've said before; if I want to change, I'll change......but i have made my choice.

Anyway; all the religions of the world have a common ground; the belief in a Divine Power.........that's enough for me....

Yeah, and while that's awesome, and awesome for you, *points* have you seen the avereage 17 year old.

If you've done your research and are happy with your decision, that's cool by me. I just want you to read God: The Failed Hypothesis. I want everyone who opposes me to. I really don't think you've finished learning until you've studided the atheisitic side as well.

[Izzy]

No one is born into Christianity. There are a lot of religions of the earth Izzy I know and have learned about most all of them. The one that is TRUE is the God of Abraham. I don't need to prove to anyone what I know or have learned about other religions. The others are false a lie. Only one God Loved you enough to send his son to die for You. Allah, wants your son to die for him.

Lmao.. I'm sorry, but your "knowledge" of the world astounds me.

OMG. I FIGURED IT OUT. YOU ARE A TROLL. I mean, your username does mean "A bad perforerm, esp. with a black accent." I think I know who you are, mah gansta homie. I refuse anyone.. can.. be.. this silly.

You have learned nothing, which is why unreality one upped you in the other thread so hard.

YEAH. THANK YOU GOD FOR SENDING YOUR SON WHICH WAS ALSO YOURSELF TO DIE FOR ME FOR THE SINS YOU ALLOW TO BE COMMITED, WHILE ACTUALLY KILLING YOURSELF, SO YOU'RE COMMINTING SUICIDE, AND ALLOWING THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS SO MANY YEARS LATER. I LOVE YOUUUUU, YOU SADOMASOCHISTIC BASTARD.

Omf.. You know the suicide bombers are cults, not following the way of Islam, recruiting young orphans and brainwashing them to do their dirty work, right? Read the Koran, it's almost identical to the Bible. It says suicide is wrong. Also, I recall God telling Abraham to kill his only son Isaac, and Abraham was going to do it when God was like "No bro, it was only a joke!" Nice dude, eh?]

No, you weren't born into it, neither were you born into beliving in Santa. You just didn't get over it when you turned 5.