[unreality]

After seeing/reading/participating in many of these religious topics, I've often thought about my personal origin of not rejecting religion, but the thing is that I can keep going backwards... I remember in 5th grade telling some people I did not believe in god and one of them said confidently that I would be struck by lightning. Well that hasn't happened yet but I feel that my dad, who is a scientist, has influenced me toward reason from a young age. This troubles me because I feel like a hypocrite if I accuse anyone of being indoctrinated into a religion from an early age. It wasn't as extreme with me, very subtle, we still went to church on occasion but not often, so it was left kind of open for me to decide, but how could I have decided otherwise?

I guess this is for the most part a moot point because in the last 5 years I have gone from passive nonbeliever to actual atheist by researching this stuff myself and participating in debates, but nevertheless I am aware how someone can be polarized by that kind of thing, so I'm wondering:

(a) how did you become the religion/nonreligion that you are today? Were you born into it or did you switch to it from something else?

(b) if you were born into it, how do you justify your adherence to it?

[Guest]

partly i was born into it, partly it was a self discovery. i was born christian. that is that was the religion i was taught. over the years, after much study, i consider myself more deist. I believe God exists, just not quite sure what he does if anything.

[Guest]

partly i was born into it, partly it was a self discovery. i was born christian. that is that was the religion i was taught. over the years, after much study, i consider myself more deist. I believe God exists, just not quite sure what he does if anything.

i was born into a Christian family as well. i'm not deist, or any denomination. i simply believe God plays a major and active role in my life. i don't have any personal raised from the dead or some extreme testimony like that, but i have little bits of personal evidence that God is there, He is real, He is actively working in this world, and He loves every single person on the planet. life does have meaning, and it is to further His kingdom in this world.

[Guest]

I don't think you need castigate yourself too much for your "indoctrination" into reason, unreality. Most people inherit their parents' beliefs, or in your case, absence of them.

In my case I was brought up as "Church of England" which broadly speaking means you have a vague idea that a god probably exists and all the rest of that Christian stuff, but you don't take it too seriously, and you certainly don't cut into valuable weekend time by going to church or any of that nonsense. In my teens I starting thinking about religion more seriously and had a brief spell of being a bible-bashing baptist, before it dawned on me that my fellow believers were far more interested in bolstering their beliefs than in objectively discerning the truth. My faith was based firstly on the fact that others who I initially respected believed the same thing, and secondly on a religious experience. Understanding that the first of these reasons was unfounded cast some doubt on the second. A little further study of human psychology ultimately rendered the second null and void. In the meantime I had read enough of the Bible to consider it ridiculous. But without the casual approach to religion that I was born into, maybe I would have been sucked in.

I subsequently referred to myself as "agnostic" until reading "The God Delusion", which made me realise just how much we are used to pussyfooting around religion, and that the "atheist" label is not such a dirty word.

My little boy is growing up in a catholic country, where he absorbs all sorts of religious ideas from school. I even decided that he should attend the religious "classes" at pre-school so as not to be left out. Currently he believes in God (and Father Christmas). I try not to give him my opinion directly, rather I ask searching questions to set an example for critical thinking. I can't imagine him sticking with religion, especially since catholicism depends heavily on family pressure. Assuming he ends up being an atheist, is that conditioning from me? Certainly I am giving him the tools to overturn religious belief, but I am not giving him beliefs. This is quite different from having a belief drummed into you (typically backed up by fear). Perhaps this is similar to your situation, as it seems you also have been exposed to religious influences, enough to gain some understanding, but without them being given the authoritative status and parental seal of approval that might cause them to stick.

[peace*out]

octopuppy: i think that if your giving him an option, and showing him different religions, instead of saying "X is how it is, DEAL WITH IT," than you're giving him freedom.

I think many of you know by now i changed from Christian - Protestant to Agnostic (or Athiest - not sure yet) about...a week ago.

Born as a christian, baptised, have been going to church my whole life, almost every sunday (didn't go today, acually ) Mom and dad ARE missions commitee, dad's deacon assistant

[Guest]

the question i have been wrestling with, is God worth worshiping? consider the amount of suffering that goes on in the world on a daily basis. if God is love, and he cares deeply about everyone, why doesn't he do more to prevent suffering?

surely God can't desire the death of an innocent child, for example, if he is everything we say. which begs the question; if God is willing to commit evil or even just allow it in his name, why should we worship him?

i don't have any good answer to this question and many others. i pray to God, because i too think he plays an active role in existence. i think he has helped me when i needed it, and does what he can for others as well. unfortunately God is faced with a dilemma. he wants people to be happy and self reliant, so he can't affect free will, or interfere too often, or people become dependent. he can only open the door, it is up to us to walk through it.

[Guest]

God is most definitely worth worshiping. being the smartest living being in the universe, He knows how to handle every problem and dilemma in ways that can be very vague to humans. no, God doesn't commit evil, but yes he does allow it. and why? because He knows how to make good come out of it.

and this is where i disagree with you phillip: self-reliance.

no, God doesn't want us to be self-reliant. that why there is suffering in the world, it drives us closer to dependence. He wants us to be dependent, but He is the only one worthy enough for our dependence. our choice of free will comes here: whether to depend on Him, or on some other worldly thing

[tiger_lily111]

As a Christian woman who is also a scientist, I see (and hear) a lot of things that seem to conflict between the two. In the end it's a personal decision, partly based on my upbringing (yes, I was born into a Christian household), but also through my own life experience. I've seen and felt too many things that science can't explain to my satisfaction ('miracles'), just like the Bible can't satisfactorily explain, if taken literally, the existence of the dinosaurs & the earth being billions of years old.

Right now, science can't explain everything. So what? The Bible doesn't explain everything. That's why there's so much interpretation in both, often leading to theories and ideas which may conflict. In time, some are proven right, others wrong. Some just continue on as they are and become accepted, without anyone knowing for sure whether it's something that should be believed or not. This holds true for both science & religion.

My religion is personal. I'm one of those Christians who isn't very happy with most churches, but that doesn't mean I give up or change my mind to unbelief or agnostic. Just because I don't go to church often doesn't mean I'm not a 'good' Christian ... I'm not, and I know it, and I try to do better. That's part of what being Christian is about, accepting that we are flawed and trying to improve ourselves and the world for God's glory. I believe in God because I've felt the existence of Him in my life. It's a belief, not something I can fully explain or even comprehend. That's why I'm a Christian, why I continue to believe and follow my religion.

Your beliefs are personal. They're part of your upbringing, but in the end you are the one who chooses what you do or don't believe. I'm glad that your parents taught you to think critically, to examine the evidence as it's presented to you. Keep doing so - you never know what you might learn. It's a lifelong process.

[Guest]

I was raised Catholic and I left the faith largely because I couldn't understand why we were supposed to believe certain things about the faith and the congregation seemed uninterested in knowing anything about said faith and simply showed up because that's what they were supposed to do. It just seemed to be a bunch of lambs leading lambs nowhere.

Sort of the first driving wedge came in Sunday School, where one day the class wound up asking what I would now classify as a linguistic question (though of course at the time, I didn't know what to call it) "Why is two called two? Why isn't it called three or one? Why is it 1, 2, 3 and not 2, 1, 4?" and the poor teacher, who was just somebody's father, tried to answer it as a theological one. His response was, "Because God made them that way." That was such a horrendous non-answer that the whole class refused to accept it and kept trying to clarify what they were asking, but he kept reiterating his response.

I don't really know what he was thinking as he was trying to answer the question, but he really didn't seem to try to look at it from a different perspective. It was perhaps unrealistic for the class to expect an appropriate answer from that venue, but his completely unthinking response, trying to bring religion into what I recognized as an nonreligious question, really bugged me.

What further turned me off to the whole thing was the blind following that occurred every Sunday service. You showed up, people read things from a book, they had communion and the priest gave a sermon. Next week, same time, same place, almost same proceedings. There was no sense of actual understanding or desire to understand in the room. The feeling I got was that vast majority of the people in the room were there because they were told to be there, not because they felt any compelling connection to the whole thing. I could have been completely wrong on that point, but the whole thing was so unthinking and dry, that was certainly my perception of the whole affair.

It also didn't help that my father was nonreligious through the whole thing and basically said nothing for or against religion, but was conspicuously absent most of the time. As my brothers and I got older and began to question things on our own, it became clear that my father said nothing mainly out of respect for my mother, though he held the whole thing in contempt in actuality.

So there were a lot of driving forces that turned me off to the whole thing and my inquisitive and logical nature made a break inevitable. To date, no one has been able to present an argument for religion that makes any sense in my mind, so I've taken the atheistic approach: There is no compelling evidence for belief in a greater being (a lesser being, maybe, but not a greater one ).

[EDM]

I'm born catholic.....and PROUD OF IT!!!!

It doesn't matter if you were atheist or of one religion.....people choose their religion and direction later in life....just because one is raised to be atheist doesn't mean they have to be one.....same goes with all aspects in life....just because one generation does or chooses something, doesn't mean that the next generation have to follow them.....

Dawh....not many people are dry and blindly following.....sunday school should be taught by people who understand the religion well enough.....unless you have that close experience, it's actually difficult for one to explain religion.....the 'horrendous non-answer' was a way of pushing a question which had no clear answer....if a person decided to change the number from two to something like 'glubbie'....would it make a difference? i believe not....but being used to the number makes it difficult to incorporate changes, don't you think???

some people don't care about religion and that's why there is so much crime and madness in the world....if people took time to spiritually understand themselves and their purpose, they would be more conscious to faith.....

Personally, i've never been able to figure out why there are atheists......how can one not have faith in a higher power or God? No one i know has been able to properly explain the big bang......if the big bang created the universe.....what created the big bang???

If science has an answer for everything.....why can't they answer miraculous cures of people or strange paranormal occurings or souls..??? and for goodness sake....don't tell me it's ectoplasm or that kind of nonsense!!! It's too ridiculous!!!

Has anyone read the professor vs student conversation.....i was all LOL on that!!!

Edited May 9, 2010 by EDM

[Guest]

I was raised Catholic and I left the faith largely because I couldn't understand why we were supposed to believe certain things about the faith and the congregation seemed uninterested in knowing anything about said faith and simply showed up because that's what they were supposed to do. It just seemed to be a bunch of lambs leading lambs nowhere.

Sort of the first driving wedge came in Sunday School, where one day the class wound up asking what I would now classify as a linguistic question (though of course at the time, I didn't know what to call it) "Why is two called two? Why isn't it called three or one? Why is it 1, 2, 3 and not 2, 1, 4?" and the poor teacher, who was just somebody's father, tried to answer it as a theological one. His response was, "Because God made them that way." That was such a horrendous non-answer that the whole class refused to accept it and kept trying to clarify what they were asking, but he kept reiterating his response.

I don't really know what he was thinking as he was trying to answer the question, but he really didn't seem to try to look at it from a different perspective. It was perhaps unrealistic for the class to expect an appropriate answer from that venue, but his completely unthinking response, trying to bring religion into what I recognized as an nonreligious question, really bugged me.

What further turned me off to the whole thing was the blind following that occurred every Sunday service. You showed up, people read things from a book, they had communion and the priest gave a sermon. Next week, same time, same place, almost same proceedings. There was no sense of actual understanding or desire to understand in the room. The feeling I got was that vast majority of the people in the room were there because they were told to be there, not because they felt any compelling connection to the whole thing. I could have been completely wrong on that point, but the whole thing was so unthinking and dry, that was certainly my perception of the whole affair.

It also didn't help that my father was nonreligious through the whole thing and basically said nothing for or against religion, but was conspicuously absent most of the time. As my brothers and I got older and began to question things on our own, it became clear that my father said nothing mainly out of respect for my mother, though he held the whole thing in contempt in actuality.

So there were a lot of driving forces that turned me off to the whole thing and my inquisitive and logical nature made a break inevitable. To date, no one has been able to present an argument for religion that makes any sense in my mind, so I've taken the atheistic approach: There is no compelling evidence for belief in a greater being (a lesser being, maybe, but not a greater one ).

This sounds very much like my circumstance, only I'm 18 (I'd guess you're older). My mother is Catholic along with the majority of my extended family. My father, on the other hand, is likely an atheist; however, he always pretends to be a Christian for my mother's sake. Growing up, my brother, two sisters, and I went to church regularly and even attended religious school (CCD), but gradually we all realized that the various teachings of the religion weren't correct. I think this is partly because of my father not being religious (note: he never said this was the case, but he essentially implied it by not acting so blatantly religious like my mother), but also because my mother always said things that didn't seem very logical so my siblings and I quickly realized to be skeptical of what she said. I remember asking her why certain things were so when she was helping me with my CCD homework and I quickly realized that her religious explanations didn't make any sense. So even though my family is primarily Catholic, religion wasn't a major part of what we did and I had sufficient nonreligious influences around me so that my siblings and I never were sucked in to believing in the religion.

In the past couple years I have participated in various religious and philosophical discussions online and with my friends simply because I have come to realize how amazingly strong the influence of religion on peoples' minds is. After studying various religions myself, I have gone from being the casual nonbeliever that many people are to the definite-atheist that is astounded that there can be such intelligent, educated people out there who still believe in religious things that are blatantly false. My friend, for example, is the valedictorian of my senior class in high school. He is a very smart person and yet when I found out last year how religious he was my mind was blown. While I am an atheist, the topic of religion interests me greatly. I live in an area of New England where there are few deeply religious people and there are a lot of nonreligious families. I have a lot of friends who are atheists. However, I do have some friends who are religious, such as my friend who is the valedictorian of our class. I find the topic of religion so interesting because of people like my friend. He's very smart and yet he doesn't think that evolution is correct. He doesn't think that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor. He does think that all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve and he does think that there was a Noah's Ark and we are all descendants of Noah and his family. Now, to someone who hasn't been raised to think that these religious beliefs are true, such a thing is mind-blowing. My friend is extremely intelligent and logical, and yet when it comes to religious he appears to be just as brainwashed as any other deeply religious person. I now understand that this is because he was raised to be religious and had I been raised in his family I would likely be just as brainwashed as he is. We're still friends and the fact that I think he is completely brainwashed (I've told him this and he just says, "Convert! Convert!" and I just shake my head and say, "If only know you knew..." and he replies, "If only YOU knew. Open your eyes to see the lord!" or something very similar to that effect) has not prevented us from being friends. It has made me extremely interested in religion and philosophy, however.

Anyways, to answer unreality's questions:

(a) I've essentially already said this if you read what I just wrote. My family is religious (Catholic), but not deeply-religious and I had enough nonreligious influences to make me naturally not believe in the religion.

(b) I wouldn't say that I was "born into" being an atheist, however, even if I was, I would justify my beliefs the same way as I do now. I'm an atheist (I lack a belief in any god) because I see no reason to think that there is a god. I see the idea of the "God" of Christianity and the Bible as being blatantly fictional. I can understand why people believe in a Heaven and a Hell, but I don't think that it is a logical belief to hold. If you accept that humans and all other life on Earth evolved from a common microscopic ancestor 4.5 billion years ago, then there's really no reason to think that such an afterlife exists. At what point in our evolution did we evolve the ability to go to an afterlife? Anyways, I'm not religious because that's what seems correct to me. If my parents had raised me to believe that all religions were fictional and that was why I am an atheist, then I think I would either still justify my beliefs for the same reason or else I wouldn't justify them as much and would instead be more of a casual nonbeliever.

Anyways, if you were "born into" having atheist beliefs and are possibly somewhat uncomfortable with that because it doesn't seem as justified as it would if you had been born into a religious family and then had figured out on your own that the religion didn't make sense, thus becoming an atheist, I would say don't worry about it. Don't feel like your beliefs are of any less value because your parents gave them to you. You ask if you're a true atheist. Well, an "atheist" is just someone who either lacks a belief in any god or someone who rejects all gods. If you hold one of those views then yes, you're an atheist.

When you add the word "true" in front of atheist though, what do you mean? You make it seem like you think it's better to be an atheist who rebelled intellectually from a religious upbringing than to be an atheist who is an atheist simply because his parents didn't brainwash him. Am I correct? Well, if this is what you think, then reconsider it. If you can adequately defend your views with logic and reason, then in what way are your beliefs not justified?

[Guest]

The religion that I enjoy today continues to rapidly evolve; and I hope it will continue to do so without cease.

My parents are devout but liberal Presbyterians - remarkably tolerant yet holding their own faith with intense conviction.

I went to church with my parents weekly. Being very liberal and progressive, our church never imposed any fear or guilt on me, so I had no discomfort with the situation until I began to think for myself as I moved into my teen years. Then two things happened.

1.) One day in Sunday School we were having a good philosophical discussion and I was asked to take the 'devil's advocate' position that God didn't exist. I found myself enthusiastically supporting that position, and realized that I already was a 'back burner atheist' - one who's reason told him that his religious tradition was full of irrational claims, but one to whom the whole issue wasn't that important.

2.) I began to contemplate infinity. Here's what I've written about that experience (sorry for the length):

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It happened when I was about fourteen; and the memory is now so worn out from revisiting, that it boils down to a still image, almost as if it is a picture hung up on my bedroom wall.

I was sitting at a table in the library of my high school in Pennsylvania. I remember the place as being bathed in bright light, very welcoming, despite some nasty winter weather outside. In this light-filled space, I sat idly contemplating the concept of infinity, as I often did in those days.

And suddenly I “got it.”

There in that welcoming library full of human wisdom, I smiled. Perhaps I sighed. It was more than an epiphany, and yet less: it was something fundamental and elemental. All I needed to do was smile and nod knowingly. Pondering the abstract mathematical concept of infinity had led me to a world-view that has permeated my being ever since. I realized that (and here’s where one’s words for the ineffable inevitably become inadequate) the infinite-nature is embedded within, not at some remote and unreachable end. And it is there to be experienced in everything around me. Suddenly whatever I touched, whatever I beheld, expressed its infinite-nature to me.

In that moment, and forever after, I understood that I am the last link of a chain that has only one end—only one! That end is not ‘now’, not ‘here’, rather it is a permeating essence—the very essence of actualized being.

Again, if this sounds like a bunch of gibberish, it is because words, like all physically-rooted things, are only the last links, not the chain of their full meaning. Literature is full of attempts at describing this kind of transformative experience. Choose the one that most clearly speaks to you.

Fast forward forty-five years or more, and I’ve expanded that simple first spiritual encounter into a full personal “theology”. It declares that I only half exist—a child of the finite world—desperately clinging to the ‘working end’ of that chain (which I now recognize as my ‘raft’ or ‘leaf’). In equal measure I fail to exist at all, subsumed to the whole of infinity all about me as I let go and soar along the length of my chain (now envisioned as the ‘River of Truth’: the chain’s simple links have become the River’s diverse and shifting currents).

Infinity need not be profound or mystical or seething with hidden raw power the way a God seems to need to be. It needs no insistent agenda at all, and yet it will not go away. The inquisitive mind forever seeks it.

Infinity is not a place you can get to—not, that is, until you let it get to you. And then it is a place that you come from. You gaze back now, incredulous at all the superficial stuff of the finite world, and marvel at the sheer tenuousness and ephemeral nature of the reality that such end-things must contend with. Herein lays the true wonder: that of the great wealth and complexity that these half-existing finite things have managed to accrue.

Given all the wealth and diversity of material existence in our universe, it is not surprising that people are quick to cast stones of doubt at the role of the infinite in their lives. It would seem that our world has transcended the need for such an intangible foundation.

When I get too caught up in my worldly life—when its complexities and pains begin to well up and overwhelm me—I have to remind myself that, by taking all these things around me to be fully real, I am casting my own stones of doubt. On what basis do I think that the rock I cast will even approach the target, when my first premise—the one that leads me to choose a rock of doubt—has no preeminence? Why have I used that precious fleeting moment of bending groundward to pick up a stone of condemnation when I could instead plant a seed of gratefulness? The ground at my feet bears a mighty burden. I should thank it for holding me up.

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After that, my parents' insistence that I continue to go to church despite my disavowal of its teachings drove a wedge between me and the church. I became an angry atheist during my teen years. The anger dissipated as I mellowed and my position on religion went back to the 'back burner' again.

Fast forward 40 years and my position was one I called agnosticism. I recognized the influence of other people's faith on society and thus on me, but there was nothing 'living' or of any practical use about religion in my own life.

But that has changed markedly in the past three years. Among other things I revisited my understanding of the infinite. No doubt you'll note the spiritual undertone in the little essay above. I've done a whole lot of additional seeking, through which I have come to recognize, purely by accident, the value of spiritual thought - thought that expands one's horizons beyond the realms of reason and science yet does not conflict with those well-meaning but limited disciplines. I would now call myself a religious naturalist. I could expand on this at great length, but I'll refrain.

[Guest]

I'd just like to say to all the atheists that Christianity is not logically based. Though one can provide evidence such as a man dead for 90 minutes is brought back to life, or a girl with cancer getting healed; Christianity is a faith as much as it is a belief. Faith is not logically proven, though, as I just said, there are evidences in the many miracles God has done. Man cannot comprehend God, so how can he expect to prove Him logically? So what if it doesn't make sense! Faith rules over reason.

[plasmid]

After seeing/reading/participating in many of these religious topics, I've often thought about my personal origin of not rejecting religion, but the thing is that I can keep going backwards... I remember in 5th grade telling some people I did not believe in god and one of them said confidently that I would be struck by lightning. Well that hasn't happened yet but I feel that my dad, who is a scientist, has influenced me toward reason from a young age. This troubles me because I feel like a hypocrite if I accuse anyone of being indoctrinated into a religion from an early age. It wasn't as extreme with me, very subtle, we still went to church on occasion but not often, so it was left kind of open for me to decide, but how could I have decided otherwise?

I guess this is for the most part a moot point because in the last 5 years I have gone from passive nonbeliever to actual atheist by researching this stuff myself and participating in debates, but nevertheless I am aware how someone can be polarized by that kind of thing, so I'm wondering:

(a) how did you become the religion/nonreligion that you are today? Were you born into it or did you switch to it from something else?

(b) if you were born into it, how do you justify your adherence to it?

In my particular case I sort of opened the door myself, a little inadvertently. I was born as a Jehovah's Witness, and when I was about five I was taught about dinosaurs, and I refused to believe that dinosaurs ever really existed because wiping out an entire ecosystem of species would be very un-God-like. My parents showed me Nova episodes of paleontologists actually digging up dinosaur bones to try to convince me that they were real, but I saw them digging white bones out of white rocks and I was convinced that they were just carving out whatever they wanted in order to tell a neat story. Had I not had a dad who was scientifically minded and sort of told me that it's ok to trust science rather than religion, or even worse if I had one that told me that I'd better stay in the family's faith or else, then I might have stayed religious. Or at least not have mentally converted until much later. Like you, I also get the feeling that people are, to a large degree, a product of their environment. Sure, anyone can potentially leave their religion, but in some cases people have facts presented to them in such a one-sided manner, and are stuck in a social situation where they can't easily leave, that they can hardly be blamed for remaining religious.

But there are other reasons why I'm not sure if I would qualify as a true atheist, depending on who defines "true". While I don't believe in any god, as you can tell from the Phronism thread I also don't dismiss religion as being unequivocally useless and destructive like many hardcore atheists do. I somewhat sympathize with the quote attributed to Einstein: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind", although I find the religions currently in existence to be far too burdened with drivel and a little short on really inspirational stuff. Maybe that means I don't get to carry the badge of being a "true" atheist, but so be it.

[unreality]

I'd just like to say to all the atheists that Christianity is not logically based. Though one can provide evidence such as a man dead for 90 minutes is brought back to life, or a girl with cancer getting healed; Christianity is a faith as much as it is a belief. Faith is not logically proven, though, as I just said, there are evidences in the many miracles God has done. Man cannot comprehend God, so how can he expect to prove Him logically? So what if it doesn't make sense! Faith rules over reason.

so going back to the questions I asked in the OP, how would you justify your own faith (assuming you were born into it, if not, how and why you switched).... because it seems to me your statements above, particularly "Faith rules over reason" are pretty self-defeating. Is it like the Supremacy Clause in the constitution? You use Reason every moment of every day of your life... except where it happens to conflict with Faith (or even consider negative things about the faith).

Do you realize that this creates an indestructable shell around your faith and that if you had happened to be introduced to the "wrong" faith (e.g. let's assume you would see Hinduism as wrong) you would have no way to escape because, in your own words, it trumps reason. So what if that had happened? Place yourself in the shoes of being born into a Hindu family. Do you think you would see the light and become a Christian? Or would you apply the exact same "reasoning" (or in your own words, lack thereof) to be absolutely faithful in Krishnu, Ganesha, Shiva, etc, etc, etc?

I'm not trying to attack I'm just pointing out that you've created a barrier that will prevent you from ever reconsidering your faith, so I know this post will also change nothing, so I'll stop rambling, but your input is most definitely appreciated, we would love to hear your answers to the questions in the OP. I guess you could call this topic a case study in the origins of personal faith/nonfaith

[unreality]

Also, thanks to those that have/will respond/ed.

Phillip, often I've thought about deism and if I had to explain my religion to, say, a girlfriend's extremely devout parents and it wasn't the time nor place for a conflict, I would call myself a deist. It's very similar to atheism, almost exactly the same IMO, but apparently a much easier concept to swallow for those who do believe in a god.

LJayden, oops i didn't see that you had already responded. I am genuinely interested though: when you say "to further His kingdom in this world", what does that mean exactly? Are we meant to explore new lands? Create new people? Spread the faith? I'm not sure what that statement implies

octopuppy, yeah I agree that we do do a lot of pussyfooting around religion… in my Comparative World Religions class we do less of the 'comparing' and more of the 'respecting'

peace*out, I was baptized as well, but as a very young baby, basically I had no choice

tiger_lily111, I love hearing testaments from people like you because you really are the hope of bridiging science with the faiths!

dawh and Use The Force, I do think that you guys are in a better position atheistically than I, who never actively switched into it from anything. More on this in a later post perhaps

EDM, the Professor Student conversations is inherently flawed. If you don't think so, send a PM to a member called "ADParker"

seeksit & plasmid, I also have sort of incorporated various pseudo-spiritual concepts into my own personal atheistic theology

[Guest]

truth is, unreality, I have a testimony of how God Himself has shown and proved to me His existence, beyond the point or reconsidering. though it may not be healed of terminal illness or raised from the dead, it is enough to prove He's real, and personal, aware of each of us individually.

Here's my story:

(Just for some context, our church hosts a post-high school program for young adults to get to know the Lord in a deeper way, as we stress the importance of an individual and personal relationship with God in our church. The class is consisted of people who have graduated from the church's academy the year prior, or other graduates from across the country or even from overseas. It's called Masters' Commission)

Our school had a high school gathering for prayer about two years or so ago. Some students from the MC program were there too, so as a result there were people there that I had never met. There was a small group of about five praying for healing of a girl with scoliosis. I was there, but, as I always was those days, I was too shy to say a prayer out loud...the only one in that group. soon i left that group altogether and joined another, bigger one. the more people, the less expectation for every person to pray.

but after that group dissipated, one of the new MC students came to me, a person from out of state. she said the had a prophetic picture for me (in our congregation, along with a close relationship with the Lord, we get insight into the prophetic during time spent with the Lord...i'll expand later if needed). she told me she saw a turtle, drawing into its shell. yeah, i'm sure she didn't really get it either, since we had introduced ourselves in that five minutes.

but it meant something to me. God had sent me a clear, personal message: don't be shy. go pray for that girl with scoliosis. which I did. and she, barely knowing me at all either (being another MC), told me not to be timid...a confirmation of the other girl's picture.

sure, the scoliosis may not have been healed that day, i'm not sure if it is even now...but there was a good coming out of that little experience: one more person will never abandon the Lord. ever. i have had my confirmation that the Lord is there and is personal, something that i didn't have before.

i'm afraid i don't know what my story would be like if i was Hindu, that's the Hindu's story. but if God's God, which He is, He will make Himself known in someone's life sooner or later, to some extent, as He has in mine.

and answering your later question, furthering the Kingdom does mean spreading the faith...sorry i was too vague on that.

last thing to add: would anyone's perspective on Christianity be changed if I said that salvation doesn't come with being baptized or choosing heaven? no, i'm not baptized, that is simply a sign to everyone that i am a saved person, a devout Christian, in love with the Lord. fact is, i am, but my not being baptized just means that i haven't announced it to the whole church yet. I have chosen Jesus, and none other, and am going to heaven after i have done all i can here on earth.

this is my belief, and why i believe it

[Guest]

I'd just like to say to all the atheists that Christianity is not logically based. Though one can provide evidence such as a man dead for 90 minutes is brought back to life, or a girl with cancer getting healed; Christianity is a faith as much as it is a belief. Faith is not logically proven, though, as I just said, there are evidences in the many miracles God has done. Man cannot comprehend God, so how can he expect to prove Him logically? So what if it doesn't make sense! Faith rules over reason.

So what if it doesn't make sense? Does it make sense to believe that a tea pot created the universe? No, so I don't believe it. As unreality emphasized, I would also very much like to understand how it is that you justify your faith. You see, for me I justify all of my beliefs/views/positions using logic and reason. "Faith" as an actual form of justification for something is alien to me. So from my perspective it seems like a crazy reason to believe in something, but perhaps it's not. That's why I'm so curious to understand. If you wouldn't mind explaining, I too would love to learn a thing or two about it. Thanks.

Oh, I stopped reading posts one before yours . I read your explanation and feel that my understanding of your situation has increased, however I still don't see how you decided that when you die you will go to an afterlife. When God told you to pray for the person with scoliosis did that somehow also communicate to you that that was the God of the Bible and thus all of the things in the Bible (like Heaven) were also true? You see, from my perspective I am sure that there are Hindus too (to use them as an example again) who have similar stories as you (spiritual events that helped them with their faith), but they would then become devout Hindus instead of Christians. So I'm still not sure why your personal experience with God telling you to not be shy and pray for the person with scoliosis causes you to believe that all of the other aspects of Christianity (e.g. the afterlife) are also true.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Use the Force

[Guest]

octopuppy, yeah I agree that we do do a lot of pussyfooting around religion… in my Comparative World Religions class we do less of the 'comparing' and more of the 'respecting'

I noticed in your profile that you're about the same age as me (and I've also noticed that there are a lot of young people on Brain Den--Interesting). Now that I just read "in my Comparative World Religions class" I'm wondering, are you a senior in high school as I am? Or are you one of those really smart people who is already in college? I go to a public high school that only offers the basic courses. Perhaps your school is just a lot bigger than mine and thus you have the opportunity to take Comparative World Religions?

dawh and Use The Force, I do think that you guys are in a better position atheistically than I, who never actively switched into it from anything. More on this in a later post perhaps

I'm not so sure that I agree that it is "a better position" if I was never really involved in a faith before becoming an atheist, but I think I understand your meaning.

When I was a kid growing up Santa Claus and God were the same practically. I realized that Santa Claus wasn't real probably two or three years before mentally telling myself that God wasn't real either. And I was probably only ten or twelve by the time that all of that was complete. So I suppose you're right: I never was really a Christian. Ever since I realized what my religious beliefs were I stopped holding those beliefs.

[unreality]

I noticed in your profile that you're about the same age as me (and I've also noticed that there are a lot of young people on Brain Den--Interesting). Now that I just read "in my Comparative World Religions class" I'm wondering, are you a senior in high school as I am? Or are you one of those really smart people who is already in college? I go to a public high school that only offers the basic courses. Perhaps your school is just a lot bigger than mine and thus you have the opportunity to take Comparative World Religions?

I'm a high school senior (woot class of 2010 haha) but yeah one of our electives is Comparative World Religions

I'm not so sure that I agree that it is "a better position" if I was never really involved in a faith before becoming an atheist, but I think I understand your meaning.

When I was a kid growing up Santa Claus and God were the same practically. I realized that Santa Claus wasn't real probably two or three years before mentally telling myself that God wasn't real either. And I was probably only ten or twelve by the time that all of that was complete. So I suppose you're right: I never was really a Christian. Ever since I realized what my religious beliefs were I stopped holding those beliefs.

yeah I have done a lot of elaborating/elucidating/thinking on my own to clarify my own beliefs and lacks thereof; I guess i'm happy that I was given little to no guidance which personally I prefer. That's something I clash with my dad a lot on, he believes in not reinventing the wheel but I believe in learning from experience (I'm not saying history is unimportant, far from it, but that some things need to be experienced and cant be taught or simply told and expected to be followed/believed)

[EDM]

unreality......the prof-student conversation was just a funny P.S.....it had nothing to do with my opinions.........

*obviously it's flawed.....a person wrote it!!!

[Guest]

Atheist or agnostic

True both are doubters, how do you know if you are a true doubter.

When you are taking your last known breath or somebody who you hold dear to you is taking theirs, and you don’t ask for help from something or somebody whom you don’t believe in.

God help me or them.

[andromeda]

When I was a kid growing up Santa Claus and God were the same practically. I realized that Santa Claus wasn't real probably two or three years before mentally telling myself that God wasn't real either. And I was probably only ten or twelve by the time that all of that was complete. So I suppose you're right: I never was really a Christian. Ever since I realized what my religious beliefs were I stopped holding those beliefs.

Same here Only time my parents raised the question of God (Santa) was around Christmas when I had to be "good" or there would be no presents for me.

My Grandmother took me to church often since she was raising me till I was five (mom and dad busy working). I don't remember ever believing in God though. I remember sitting on the balcony where the church choir was, and all that I was thinking was that all that bible thing was just an interesting fable and that's all that it was.

In elementary school everyone "believed" in God so I tried to incorporate him in my understanding of the world but alas, he would always stay dangling like a nonfunctional fifth limb.

[Guest]

I'm born catholic.....and PROUD OF IT!!!!

It doesn't matter if you were atheist or of one religion.....people choose their religion and direction later in life....just because one is raised to be atheist doesn't mean they have to be one.....same goes with all aspects in life....just because one generation does or chooses something, doesn't mean that the next generation have to follow them.....

Dawh....not many people are dry and blindly following.....sunday school should be taught by people who understand the religion well enough.....unless you have that close experience, it's actually difficult for one to explain religion.....the 'horrendous non-answer' was a way of pushing a question which had no clear answer....if a person decided to change the number from two to something like 'glubbie'....would it make a difference? i believe not....but being used to the number makes it difficult to incorporate changes, don't you think???

some people don't care about religion and that's why there is so much crime and madness in the world....if people took time to spiritually understand themselves and their purpose, they would be more conscious to faith.....

Personally, i've never been able to figure out why there are atheists......how can one not have faith in a higher power or God? No one i know has been able to properly explain the big bang......if the big bang created the universe.....what created the big bang???

If science has an answer for everything.....why can't they answer miraculous cures of people or strange paranormal occurings or souls..??? and for goodness sake....don't tell me it's ectoplasm or that kind of nonsense!!! It's too ridiculous!!!

Has anyone read the professor vs student conversation.....i was all LOL on that!!!

I must point out the the population of Atheists in prison is, I believe, less than 1% - Compare that to the amount of Atheists in society and you will find that many many more theists are committing crimes than atheists, I find that most atheists have a higher moral code than their religion following counterparts. In addition I can NOT recall a single war or a terrorist act that has ever been started or carried out by a nonbeliever. Just something to think about before you blame "crime and madness in the world" on a lack of belief in a arbitrary sky-daddy with a lot of silly rules.

[EDM]

I must point out the the population of Atheists in prison is, I believe, less than 1% - Compare that to the amount of Atheists in society and you will find that many many more theists are committing crimes than atheists, I find that most atheists have a higher moral code than their religion following counterparts. In addition I can NOT recall a single war or a terrorist act that has ever been started or carried out by a nonbeliever. Just something to think about before you blame "crime and madness in the world" on a lack of belief in a arbitrary sky-daddy with a lot of silly rules.

i'm sorry you thought that way.....what i meant was that many theists do not actually care much about their religion.....they lose faith and think that their crimes will go unpunished......hence the increase in crime rate.....

btw.....the terrorists also use religion as an excuse when they actually don't care about it.......if they truly cared about their faith, they wouldn't commit such intolerable acts........

so what i'm saying is: the way 'some' people use religion to cause mayhem and destruction in the world just proves that they have no moral values, or religion for that matter (atheists are excluded from this statement....)

i have a question; is scientology a part of atheism? or is it separate??? isn't it based on logic also???

(ugh!!! i just confused myself!!!)

[unreality]

i have a question; is scientology a part of atheism? or is it separate??? isn't it based on logic also???

(ugh!!! i just confused myself!!!)

don't let the name fool you. Scientology has NOTHING to do with science. It even insults the process of science, logic, reason, rationality, emotion, morality and all other human values by even trying to associate itself with science lol Basically scientology is a crazy alien cult that thrives on massive 'worshipper' donations and secrecy, brainwashing, getting members to exclude family members that aren't scientologists, etc.

In short Scientology is an extreme a religion as you can go, a bloodsucking cult. Please don't ever confuse it with atheism, agnosticism, humanism, naturalism, or deism