araver

Yay, that's ... actually not improving your previous answer. Short recap: - you're dodging why you voted GM in the first place - you're dodging why you don't want a tie with Framm as sole survivor - you mentioned then backed out of a too harsh claim - you still don't mention why you're voting Phil atm So, not changing my vote.

Just to be clear Flame: in the N1 post only AQ and goodie block appeared. APR was added later. And I doubt immensely that you're the goodie block. Tough luck for getting CCed on that, but Nana can't speak for herself. Now if you want to claim AQ, please go ahead. The way you worded it makes it seem like you're Nefer rather than AQ. Having a save around with no block in the game would make Nefer more likely to boldly claim without getting AQ counterclaiming back.

Yes indeed, I did want something other than voting. An explanation why you voted GM for example. But this is waaay better. The way I see it, you couldn't have been in the N1 post unless you're the Ant Queen. And it's a pretty flimsy claim to make since N2 post would give you away. Care to back out of the claim?

@Y-San - I was using "we" as a numerical shield. Not quite a legion but we might just balance it out. For this particular point in time, I will bow out and accept your wishes on the matter.*** So, as it stands, Framm is the sole survivor of the tie. Does anyone, except Framm of course, have a problem with that? I fear I may have some second thoughts after asking this question out loud. *** = Whilst bowing out of a tie I cannot change, my mind slipped further to the extreme ... endulge me for a second... down this path, should bonanova choose to cast his vote on Framm right now, it would be a bloody day indeed ... with no clear victor I pressume.

1) Phil1882 2) Framm18 - voting for Phil 3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster 4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?) 5) GMaster479 6) Araver - voting for Flame 7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

1) Phil1882 2) Framm18 - voting for Phil 3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster 4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?) 5) GMaster479 6) Araver - voting for Phil 7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

@Y-San - you're killing me ... but not softly enough. So if I switch to Phil, I break the tie and hence the history of votes cast since it's 2-1. Then if switch back to Flame, I'm the only one creating a 3-way tie or is last vote on Phil/GM also counted? P.S. You can't possibly dislike ties more than we like to explore and stretch exceptional rules.

1) Phil1882 2) Framm18 - voting for Phil 3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster 4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?) 5) GMaster479 6) Araver - voting for Flame 7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

Current tie is worse than previous IMHO. I will add my vote on Flame in the next post once I get a chance to quote. @bonanova - your willingness for the tie would be proof enough. It's in the APR master's hands though. At least I'll lift the tie situation, can't help with the rest. @Flame - besides voting almost everyone else, absolutely nothing. Care to share something once I cast the vote?

I really hate how these tie rules work, so I'm not making a tie unless someone inactive votes until I go to bed (day ends around 6AM my time). @Framm - I don't see Ant Queen's powers growing. She does get IDs from people she kill. I'm leaning on Neferpitou b/c she also gets info from people killed by Ant Queen + she has a simpler wincon (only 3 dead as opposed to 5) + she gets extra RID Kill if Ant Queen is lynched (Ant Queen can't die otherwise without a redirect in the game. EDIT: except by APR). Chances are Nefer can win faster than AQ and faster if AQ is dead. What I find interesting so far (mid D1): - Bonanova voting, although that costs him APR and may lead to an early demise unless he is APR-master - GM was blocked, so definitely not AQ and not Shoot since he cannot trap himself and not Knuckle since APR exists. So, from a goodies' PoV he could be 1 of 3 other roles. 2 of which are goodie roles. Statistically it's improbable for him to be Nefer. Moreover there is no spy-type that would definitely know him to be Nefer (before D1 ends / after being blocked N1) and push for his lynch (under a randomness pretense). So, I could see Ant Queen or Nefer throwing him under the bus, but not a goodie. And not 2 goodies = 2 votes. @Bonanova - I don't think anyone of us has a clean way of identifying Nefer before D1 ends: even if Gon made a successful RPS it won't be successful until after Day post and even if Palm followed Nefer N1 and saw someone (probably) acting on self, it still wouldn't be distinguishable from Killua or even Knuckle acting on self. With no deterministic way ... we're down to basic mind streching in the dark. Right now, I would rather vote one of Phil, Flame and Framm. Preferably an inactive. Or Flame. Unrelated, I see no way goodies could orchestrate a tie to get both AQ and Nefer in one day, even at the expense of a goodie. But it would be so cool, cooler than ... I forgot what I held as the coolest moment so far. Anyway, just rambling out loud.

wonder if that means today or tomorrow. Agree with going after Nef as a priority. How do we identify her? Anyone know what means the [question mark] after Nana's death? The question mark means role unknown. As opposed to the role shown when someone is publicly lynched.

Chairman: Yoruichi-san Roster: 1) Phil1882 2) Framm18 - voting for Araver 3) Flamebirde - voting for Araver 4) bonanova {APR 0} 5) GMaster479 6) Araver - voting for Framm 7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen Ironically, killing Nana N1 was my choice before the re-roll. Wondering who else thought the same? Starting with Framm since GM was blocked and can't be Queen. Since the Ant Queen & Nefer*** already know who Nana was, it will be pretty easy to narrow the others if we give too much info. And I fear lynching the Ant Queen before N is going to be counterproductive. I will tell you I acted N1. I can't add a suspect to the table yet.

Conf ... actually, make that "olly oxen free". And I swore to Aura I will never click on spoilers again. Actually, I think I swore to try not to. Which I did. Hmm. Need to remember: must not eat chocolate.

Host: Yoruichi-san 1) Phil1882 2) Framm18 3) Flamebirde 4) bonanova 5) GMaster479 6) Araver 7) Nana77 Back-ups: A) plasmid B) C)

Questions: 5. Do you define blood relatives as having one common ancestor (male or female)? 6. When you say that all creatures will choose a mating situation, if one exists, where everyone mates, does this only apply to choosing a global optimal solution? Or do they need to "choose" a situation where as many as possible mate? (Forced / Greedy approach).

3 more and probably a couple of confirms or backups needed. We might even pull this off... O MollyMae, Where Art Thou?

Unless the host comes up with some ingenious game mechanics, one cannot play 2 roles in a Mafia game. He'd be having too much info as opptosed to one playing a single role. Not to mention having roles in two different factions. Mewminator has created such a game mechanic called dual personality where that makes sense. But balancing the game properly is hard.

Great Only 6 + 1 confirms left (including Molly Mae here) ... and 5 more players, and we're off. Where to get those 5 players ... hmm.

Host: Molly Mae 1. Flamebirde - 2013 2. MikeD - 2013 3. DyalDragon 4. Kikacat123 - 2013 5. Marksmanjay 6. 7. 8. Brainiac100 9. 10. araver - 2013 11. 12. dee_tot - 2013 13. TwoaDay 14. 15.Magic - 2013 16. Hirkala 17. Panther 18. Bmad 19. mboon Adding Kikacat and a marker for all who signed up or bumped this in 2013 Molly, get your secrets ready

3 short q: 1. is ' counted as a letter? (expecting no) 2. What does switch imply? (mystique) do all rids for role x fail during the switch? EDIT: I wanted to ask if this switch affects correctly ridding mystique? (more to the point I feel it makes it impossible unless mystique is blocked) 3. Rid results are sent to players?

Host: Y-san Roster: 1. BMAD 2. Panther 3. Araver 4. 5. 6. 7. Unkillable indy... two of my favorite flavors.

Host: Molly Mae 1. Flamebirde 2. MikeD 3. DyalDragon 4. 5. Marksmanjay 6. 7. 8. Brainiac100 9. 10. araver - confirming in 2013 11. 12. dee_tot 13. TwoaDay 14. 15. 16. Hirkala 17. Panther 18. Bmad 19. mboon Backup: 1. 2. Let's give it another try this summer, then Tell your Mafioso friends. Spam your Mafioso friends. Just get them here. Drag them here so we can lynch play with them.

Let's all prove we're back by signing up for Coup of Rhotus then: It's been waiting forever for a critical mass of BrainDen Mafiosos to come back and play.

Lol, posting from a phone really makes my posts come out worse than I thought ) and yes, I am likewise analytical (and have been lynched many times b/c of the loss of tone meta-information in forum communication). Sorry there were no paragraph marks in my post . Trying to separate the threads again (from a computer this time): 1. There was no misunderstanding, I wasn't in any way against your future Maxwell equations and I did not feel you offended the system I have only tried to compactly present (some of) the conclusions of some very long threads into one or two paragraphs just to get you up to speed to where / why we used it and what the overall opinion is after we've been using it for more than 1 year (fragmented opinions but with some common ground). Especially the pressure of having multiple Hosts designing multiple Mafias (kinda mainstream) melded those opinions. 2. Re this game I have my own biased opinion on interactions which has nothing to do with the discussion about balance in general. Bias from playing (albeit not very long), bias from being a sore loser (half bias 'cause I just admitted it out loud, right? ) and most of all bias from being a host having personal preferences and inklings regarding interactions in Mafia games. 3. My last paragraph (lines actually) were actually designed to be a joke. E.g. [off-topic parenthesis: I have been proud to call myself an (aspiring) scientist, until a mob of people convinced me that actually all of the results I proved follow the same pattern: something is either not true, utterly impossible or at least infeasible. So I became a manager, thinking it's a job where the inclination of discovering there is no way to do something will be very useful. Turns out it doesn't.]

Yup, real life gets in the way of a lot of stuff *sigh* Back on topic, yes the system is not foolproof, it still shouldn't be used in games with vanillas (though I still haven't won that argument past Bb) and all-in-one the system does not account for context-specific info. Including order of actions, interactions, other host rules, fact that abilities still can't be weighted the same for an uninformed / informed faction, etc. Her comes the but part. As we were in need of an easy-to-apply system, we've embraced it as a foundation and it's easy to teach to apprentice hosts. Much like newtonian physics. Nana even tried to make it as auto as possible to capture even the laziest hosts possible (and mass verification as required by an industrial boom). The idea is to use it in conjuction with open debates before the game is queued, to allow as much human/community contributions as possible. Back to this game, the goodie restrictions were not visible in this exact instance but could have made an impact. Redirects not being shown almost always disrupt balance thoughts from a host as it easily leads to incorrect assumptions which prove to be fatal in Mafia games. For the uniformed usually. I still think this was imbalanced i.e would show the baddies win more than 1/3 of games. However there is no way I can prove it without statistics/ large number of simulations. Which is not feasible, even if we have bots to host simple mafias we're far from simulating mafia players. I will only throw one more argument in: both minorities had abilities that grew in power (baddies unblockable lynch switch as goodies can be narrowed down or out, and indys no of actions which also benefits from info spreading and even previous trial and error attempts. Goodies did not have that. I would enjoy having a different system to chew at, but I am skeptical that an easy to use system is right around the corner. The goal is not to have a foolproof system but to make the overall balance judgement process starting from a reasonable scaffolding and adding pepper and salt to iron things out... I once dreamed of publishing a research paper on the subject, but obviously when I woke up, I did not find the page I had scribbled my lemmas. Been researching dreaming ever since, on a regular basis, with no luck so far.