[Guest]

Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.)

[Guest]

sorry, was talkin to akaslickster.

[Guest]

God is truly amazing. To have created the complex environments that we live in, and to have made us. Everyone owes their existence to Him. Sooner or later, you'll all realize this, the sooner the better. Right now my church is talking about eschatology (too bad it's not for youth) so you can talk about the apocalypse here as well (in a christian sense).

[Guest]

But you cant say that baptisim and the parting of the red sea are made up and ask to prove it. Its the same as asking to disprove it.

Baptism? It's saying gibberish and getting someone wet, and claiming that something special has happened.

Like a number of things in religion, it reminds me of this:

No we can't 'prove' that such a miraculous event (Red Sea) occurred, or that it did not (because your fairy tale includes magic, so even the logically impossible could happen in your stories - This is what renders it immediately rationally worthless.) No more than we can for the twelves tasks of Heracles, or the stories in the Norse Eddur. Why should we believe the one you happen to, over those others?

What we can do however is dismiss it as too improbable to even consider. David Hume summed it up over 250 years ago:

"The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), `That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish; and even in that case there is a mutual destruction of arguments, and the superior only gives us an assurance suitable to that degree of force, which remains, after deducting the inferior.' When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion."

DAVID HUME Enquiry concerning Human Understanding, Section X, "Of Miracles."

The upshot is that even if it did happen, it is still utterly irrational to believe it did!

No one alive today was there to see it happen or not, and the only person that we know of that wrote about it said that it did happen.

Not the "no one was there" canard! No one alive today was there for a lot of things, yet we can piece together some fairly impressive understandings nonetheless. In this case all we have is a single story, one full of magic and all of the good things a work of mystical fiction should have. None of which is supported by a shred of evidence.

The parting of the Red Sea was actually something of a favourite for may serious believers. Because it could have potentially have been verified (at least to some degree) by simply examining the area. Many believers and sceptics alike, expert anthropologists and amateur has trawled the area, looking for any sign of the deaths caused in that little story. Not a shred has been found. That itself is evidence that no such event ever took place. Similar tales can be told about a number of the Moses fables as well. Many theologians (esp. Jewish ones) accept that most, if not all, of the Moses stories are allegorical in nature. Perhaps even the man himself!

So you saying that the only person who wrote a story about it, said it did happen?! So what? Douglas Adams is the only person who wrote about the Improbability drive, and in the story he said it was real. Hardly means that it is, now does it? You are taking a single story (from an age rife with such fables) as evidence. Are the myths of the Greeks equally as probable as well? Minotaurs, Hydras and Gorgons?

If you believe that there is no God, then of course you wont believe in it. But if you do believe in God, then all things are possible, not just the ones that can be explained scientifically.

Indeed; first you have to start with the presupposition of the entire myth foundation, then you can believe anything claimed to be associated with it. No matter how daft.

With gods (and God_TM) we have magic introduced so "all things are possible." Therefore making any claim of gods to be of no rational worth whatsoever. In rendering the god-hypothesis so utterly Unfalsifiable, you strip it of any (even potential) value. If everything counts as evidence for gods, then nothing does.

If God made the laws of nature, then he can break them if he chooses. Its all about presuppositions.

Case in point. Thank you.

[Guest]

Not due to ancestry, but definately faith. I grew up Christian, but turned away from it when I went to college.

Common. "Age of Reason" stuff. Doesn't always take, the indoctrination (often quite subtle) can be strong and lasting.

I threw the whole thing out the window.

Oh I am sure that you believed you had.

I thought it was a gimmick (sp?) used to control the young and give hope to the old. Something that was made up, false emotions, false history, and false hope.

You were right.

After 2 years of "secular" education, bilogoy, anthropology, and philosophy, I found that the world didnt make sense without God.

Two whole years?! I mean come on, my philosophy degree took three alone (and my science one a couple more on top of that,) and it hardly scratched the philosophical surface.

I understand how such things could foster much doubt. Philosophy especially; a lot of students drop out because of the discomfort of no ready answers, no answers at all usually.One thing one discovers in philosophical study is just how breathtakingly vast is one breadth of ignorance! It can be very unsettling (frighteningly and/or wonderfully, depending on one's disposition.) I can fully understand why you rushed back to your childhood (and childish) comforter. Only a relative few of us are both capable and willing of embracing the exciting, but most daunting uncertain future it sets before us. But it is worth the effort, it really is!

Not because of my parents but because thats the way that I choose to believe and live my life. Its okay if you dont agree, but I believe with my whole heart thats its the truth.

Believe with your whole heart? (Both ventricles, atria, the AS and AV nodes and all! Playing )

If that's what you want to do then fine. Personally I prefer Thinking with my Mind.

[Guest]

GodZeus is awesome! He is the Lord of lords, King of kings, All mighty GodOdin He's Lord of everything!!!!!

Well you might as well have said that, for all the value your blind assertion had.

[Guest]

Christianity is more than just believing in miracles.

Sure it is.

It gives people a cause,

Much easier than fashioning your own eh?

moral values,

(claimed) moral laws. Big difference.

It does not teach you moral reasoning; it tells you what to believe is moral and what is not.

and precautions on bad things.

Or at least things that the authors thought were "bad things" thousands of years ago in the Middle East etc.

A number of which modern moral reasoning tells us is simply erroneous.

The Bible is a guide that adresses all parts of life, and is practical as well as entertaining.

Right; a (muddled) rule book. You essentially give up your own moral and practical reasoning and just blindly obey whatever is written in your particular chosen version of what some people wrote claimed was right back in the dim distant past. Stone many people to death who dare work on Sundays (or is that Saturdays?!)

The atheist just wants to live happily without any consequence, and is limited by science and what others say is real.

Yes, "The Atheist" wants to live happily. Don't we all?

Most of us are not so naive to think that there are no consequences, of course there are. We just feel the need to imagine some extra magical sky daddy peering down at us, to appreciate them.

Projection much?! We are limited by science. Funny that science; which is NOT a noun but a verb: It is something that is done, and dynamic. We do science, we are not limited by it.

You however are not so limited are you? No you really on one whole book, not on merely the entirely of human rational knowledge and the search for same.

The Christian is only limited by the mind in terms of what can happen.

What you describe is Imagination. We have it, we are just not so naive to believe that it conveys any reliable truth.

With God, all things are possible.

So I hear.

Apart from providing the means to offer a coherent reason to believe in him/her/it, it appears.

If you can't disprove something, then why scoff at it?

Who's scoffing? One can not "disprove" anything of an ontological nature. Should we then accept everything as probable. Or can we dismiss as not worthy of consideration those things that offer no evidential support?

I don't want to hear that you are scoffing at the Dragon in my garage then, you hear?!

Don't judge something you can't understand. (adressed to all atheists)

Don't presume we are judging your imaginary friend, when all we are doing is assessing (and yes judging) your claims, assertions and arguments.

[Guest]

God [Nature and the universe] is truly amazing. To have created the complex environments that we live in, and to have made us. Everyone owes their existence to Him [it].

There fixed.

Sooner or later, you'll all realize this, the sooner the better.

Oh I have; the fundamental forces, nature; all of it dazzlingly wonderful!

But as Douglas Adams said:

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

Right now my church is talking about eschatology (too bad it's not for youth) so you can talk about the apocalypse here as well (in a christian sense).

Oh goody: I like scary bed time stories.

[Guest]

If you are going somewhere for example to buy something or pay the bills or whatever and if you leave your house and then remember that you forgot to take your umbrella for example and the forecast is that it'll be raining you shouldn't go back in the house cause it's a bad thing to do, cause she believes that in that case whatever you were about to do that day will fail. You'll fail to buy the things you wanted and you'll fail to pay your bills because you went back to fetch your umbrella and by the superstition it's a bad thing to do. So you better go without your umbrella cause if you go back to get it it's better to stay home cause nothing that you wanted to accomplish that day will be the way you wanted. So if you go back after you locked the door that day will turn into one of those days when nothing turns out the way you wanted.

[irrelevant]I've never heard of that superstition before, and I have to say I quite like it! OK, it's a superstition and superstitions rot your ability to think clearly, but there's a lot to be said for the stop-fussing-and-just-get-out-the-door mentality of that one. There are days when I could do with a bit of that myself.[/irrelevant]

However… if I would be going somewhere with my aunt and I remembered that I forgot something I wouldn't have gone back into the house to get it cause she believes in that superstition. If I were alone of course I would go back in a heartbeat without thinking about the consequences of "what I've done".

One thing I like about superstitions is they provide lots of opportunity for a little harmless winding-up. My mother in law is superstitious and it always amuses me when she gets in a fluff about how I've gone out the wrong door or done something the wrong way round. I just do it anyway, and tell her it's bad luck to be superstitious. Why do you play along with it? Surely it's more fun not to?

I really don't know how else to explain it. I don't wanna start listing all the crazy superstition that my aunt believes in cause this is not a tread about that (but boy you wouldn't believe, and not just my aunt).

Start a thread about that! It would be really good

So what would I want to accomplish with reversing baptism. Well it's the only way they would take my atheism seriously. By they I mean my large family and they are all like my aunt, well not all of them, but a lot of them. So if I only say that I don't believe in God, or what the bible says and the lot they would just discard that saying that I can't say that I wasn't baptized when I was, but by reversing baptism they would take my atheism seriously, or so I think. Of course they would be disappointed but they would take it seriously... I only used superstition as an example to try to express what I wanted to say by reversing baptism.

I'm not sure if I understand what you were trying to explain with the superstition. I think a lot of catholics have a tendency to value the ceremony over the belief, so it doesn't matter what you think, you're still all set to go to heaven because you had the ceremony. It's like booking a seat on a plane, once they've bought you a ticket your seat is booked regardless of whether you believe it or not. But I still find it hard to see why this gives you a problem. If it makes them happy to think this, why not? You can't change their minds, and as long as you are not expected to do anything to maintain your place in heaven, it needn't impact on you. It sounds to me like you want to upset everybody by making them aware that this doesn't work. But you can never expect people to see things your way in matters of belief and disbelief. Occasionally you have the opportunity to influence someone but most of the time people just bimble along believing what they believe and not wanting to have that challenged. That can be hard to accept when you've been thinking a lot about your beliefs (or lack of). But that's how it is. You can't shock everybody out of their belief systems, but it seems like you want to. Am I understanding you right?

[andromeda]

You can't shock everybody out of their belief systems, but it seems like you want to. Am I understanding you right?

No, it's not about shocking their belief system (they just think that they have a belief system ) it's about being left alone and in peace.

Hypothetical scenario:

*Insert name here*: Why didn't you make the sign of the cross when you have entered the church, it's very disrespectful and blah, blah, blah...

Me: I'm an atheist I don't believe in this stuff, I've even reversed baptism even though I don't believe in it so I wouldn't have to take this crap anymore! Leave me alone! Let me just be!

Something like that. I know that it would be a shocker for my family but I think I would be left alone since I'm not "Christian anymore". Funny stuff I know, but like I said I wouldn't do it for me, but for others to leave me alone.

Start a thread about that! It would be really good

I don't wanna start a thread about that gibberish Besides I would have to do a research cause I forgot about all that stuff since I don't "practice" it.

Edited May 5, 2009 by andromeda

[Guest]

*Insert name here*: Why didn't you make the sign of the cross when you have entered the church, it's very disrespectful and blah, blah, blah...

Simple answer: "I have no respect for the church."

(I refer of course to the institution and beliefs of the church rather than the actual building, which might be absolutely wonderful)

Not wishing to dictate your opinions either, but that's what I'd say, since the need to show respect for the church is the assumption there.

That's one of those occasions where you're expected to do things in accordance with the religion people expect you to have (or play along with), and that's generally the point where (if challenged) you need to state your position. But I think I see your problem now. It's really irritating when people make those kind of dumb assumptions. And if you've already told them you're an atheist and they still make those assumptions because they're too lazy to try to understand you, doubly so. You need a way of stating your position that will be processed as valid input. I think some Italians find it hard to understand, too. If you're not a Catholic you must be a Muslim. There may be an awareness that such a thing as Protestantism exists (a foreign concept, only for foreigners) but the "no religion" concept does not compute. That would make you a lapsed [Catholic/Protestant/Muslim], and you'd do well to observe the rituals until your faith picks up again.

I expect it's probably a more persistent form of the kind of annoyance most atheists feel when attending, say, a church wedding and we're expected to get down on our knees and pray. You shouldn't be placed in that position. You're just attending a wedding, not buying into a belief. A minor irritation in that case but I feel for you if you have to deal with it continuously.

I don't wanna start a thread about that gibberish Besides I would have to do a research cause I forgot about all that stuff since I don't "practice" it.

Oh but it's not gibberish. They're all fascinating little memetic oddities, all there for some reason or other. Please let me know about any really odd ones you think of, I thought the one you mentioned earlier was wonderful.

[akaslickster]

Well, how ironic. Instead of spreading religious goodwill, you are sowing seeds of discord among us.

No! Not at all. I believe that life without religion can exist nicely. I never had an intention to disencourage anyone from being a Christian, yet it is simply not meant for myself, dude.

sorry, was talkin to akaslickster.

Well, stick to your heart and faith, as no one should (force you rather)to go against your will/belief setting.

I became open-minded, and left the church that contained mainly elderly, cause thats where they congregate.

God is truly amazing. To have created the complex environments that we live in, and to have made us. Everyone owes their existence to Him. Sooner or later, you'll all realize this, the sooner the better. Right now my church is talking about eschatology (too bad it's not for youth) so you can talk about the apocalypse here as well (in a christian sense).

I think it's a good time there. My uncle is a devout Augustinian Brother, in the Catholic faith, and I keep the prayer before a meal and then I forget all about it because I think different.

[Guest]

What andromeda is saying is all Catholic stuff. It says nowhere in the Bible to make a cross when entering a church. Well, if you don't believe in the rapture and the end of the world, you're in for a rough time. I assume you'll say,"I don't believe in that stuff, so it doesn't matter," but it won't matter if you say that, it's gonna happen. Many of the signs have already manifested themselves.

But as Douglas Adams said:

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

Well, then why are scientists constantly trying to figure things out when they already happened? "Why is the earth here, why is the sky blue," for example. i could easily ask why atheists believe that evolution created us, when they could enjoy just being here.

[andromeda]

What andromeda is saying is all Catholic stuff.

I was just explaining something to octopuppy.

Well, then why are scientists constantly trying to figure things out when they already happened? "Why is the earth here, why is the sky blue," for example. i could easily ask why atheists believe that evolution created us, when they could enjoy just being here.

Because it's in our nature to question things, to explain things. You are doing the same thing as we do except you are putting God in the center of everything. At least we have an explanation for why the sky is blue, I don't think that the bible has it

I do enjoy being here and that's why I studied biology to know even more

[Guest]

Well, God is our reason for the existence of mankind. Yes, I aim to become an ichthyologist, and I enjoy biology. The Bible wouldn't address such trivial matters as to why the sky is blue. Just was responding to AdParker as an argument to his quote from Douglas Adams.

[Guest]

Much easier than fashioning your own eh?

By choosing to follow Christianity, we are choosing a cause for ourselves. Anyways, humans are susceptible to the desires of the flesh.

I don't want to hear that you are scoffing at the Dragon in my garage then, you hear?!

Ah, yet we can prove that there is no dragon in your garage by going inside it. The beliefs of Christianity have been even more proven than the flimsy theory of evolution, which is as weak as a stick of balsa wood on my bridge.

[andromeda]

By choosing to follow Christianity, we are choosing a cause for ourselves. Anyways, humans are susceptible to the desires of the flesh.

Ah, yet we can prove that there is no dragon in your garage by going inside it. The beliefs of Christianity have been even more proven than the flimsy theory of evolution, which is as weak as a stick of balsa wood on my bridge.

You do realize that you will, at some point, come across evolution while studying to become an ichtyologist?!

[Guest]

Yeah, but there are plenty of Christian scientists. They've probably found ways to deal with it. Oh yes, this is a bit random, but even though Galileo supported the heliocentric solar system, the Catholic church could more accurately predict eclipses and comets. So it was not due merely to blind faith that the individuals in the church held on to their geocentric belief.

[Guest]

Well, if you don't believe in the rapture and the end of the world, you're in for a rough time.

And if you don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster YOU are in for a rough time. See how that works? Ah the power of empty assertion. What we have here is an Appeal to Consequences, a logical fallacy.

I assume you'll say,"I don't believe in that stuff, so it doesn't matter," but it won't matter if you say that, it's gonna happen. Many of the signs have already manifested themselves.

No, what I say is that I see no reason to believe that story, any more than any other fairy tale, myth or work of fiction.

Well, then why are scientists constantly trying to figure things out when they already happened?

The Historical Sciences you mean? Human inquisitiveness, the desire to understand Life, the Unieverse and everything. Because understanding teh past can aid us in understanding what is now here, what will follow, how to act on that information.

Ever hear of the cliche: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." (George Santayana.)

It is not EXACTLY That for the historical sciences like cosmology of course, but there is still a ring of truth even there. Understanding the path something (such as our planet or universe) aids in our fuller understanding of it's current nature.

"Why is the earth here, why is the sky blue," for example. i could easily ask why atheists believe that evolution created us, when they could enjoy just being here.

OR we could do both. Anyway; it is a silly assumption to equate belief in evolution with atheism. And I Accept the facts and theory of evolution because the evidence supports it. No need for "belief."

One could of course turn that around and ask why the theist believes in their particular god(s), and the origin stories that go with it, when they could enjoy just being here. But it's a worthless question, so I won't.

The quote of course was something quite different, and you (should) know it.

[Guest]

Ah, yet we can prove that there is no dragon in your garage by going inside it.

Ah, another one who can't follow a simple link.

The beliefs of Christianity have been even more proven than the flimsy theory of evolution, which is as weak as a stick of balsa wood on my bridge.

[Guest]

Yeah, but there are plenty of Christian scientists. They've probably found ways to deal with it.

True, many have. Look up Kenneth Miller as a perfect example.

[Guest]

hmm... If the members of the cult Uberfaith were Christian, that would be funny. Such blasphemous pigs. Their joke is an insult to all religions, especially mine.

[Guest]

There's more evidence to support Christianity than evolution, as I have previously stated.

The Historical Sciences you mean? Human inquisitiveness, the desire to understand Life, the Unieverse and everything. Because understanding teh past can aid us in understanding what is now here, what will follow, how to act on that information.

Ever hear of the cliche: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." (George Santayana.)

It is not EXACTLY That for the historical sciences like cosmology of course, but there is still a ring of truth even there. Understanding the path something (such as our planet or universe) aids in our fuller understanding of it's current nature.

The Bible aids understanding more than such study. What can we gain from knowing there are more galaxies, or things like that. Sure, tjey're fun facts, but do nothing to aid understanding. Look to actual wisdom.

[Izzy]

Yeah, but there are plenty of Christian scientists. They've probably found ways to deal with it.

About 7% of scientists believe in a personal god. Maybe half of those are Christians. They've 'dealt with it' by either working in a field that won't interfere with their beliefs, or by attempting to use their 'knowledge' to prove god(s). Percentage of the latter scientists taken seriously: 0. Honestly, if you won't let religion influence your work, you have my regards. But because of how you'll be working with evolution on the hands-on, day-to-day level, I don't think being any sort of biologist would suit you. You still have time to grow up, though.

[Izzy]

Ah, another one who can't follow a simple link.

Rofl. This is funny in two senses. The first, me not going back a page to realize you actually included a link, and thought he just couldn't connect the dots. The second, him really not being able to click on a hyperlink.

[Guest]

hmm... If the members of the cult Uberfaith were Christian, that would be funny. Such blasphemous pigs. Their joke is an insult to all religions, especially mine.

What ARE you talking about?!

There's more evidence to support Christianity than evolution, as I have previously stated.

Well I would certainly hope so. Seeing as evolution does NOT support Christianity at all.

All your Creationists friends' apologetics are desperate attempts to keep their little biblical literalism Faith alive, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. By keeping it Unfalsifiable. In doing so, it can't be disproved, that is true. It also makes it non-scientific, and logically unfounded. In fact; Anti-scientific and Irrational.

IF the overarching theory of evolution is correct (which it is to the extent required) then your little ~6,000 year old universe story is bunk.

IF it is not correct; well then your little mythical story book still has not a leg to stand on, but at least it isn't disproved by that one particular bit of science, right?

It is the YEC apologists that constantly make the False Dilemma Logical Fallacy, of assuming that if the scientific method can be debunked, then you Magic Man hypothesis is correct by default. (That is a link back there; if you click on it you will go to the page that explains it for you - you might want to familiarise yourself with the other fallacies to be found there as well. You use many of them, you really should get to know them.)

The Bible aids understanding more than such study.

Let's see; science is the dedicated search for knowledge (Science coming from the Latin; scientia which means "knowledge") through the careful and rigorous observation of observable reality (And it has done so, and continues to do so, to great depths and lengths.) An ongoing process of continuous re-evaluation and progression, which results in ever improving approximations of reality.

The Bible (from The Latin Biblia[/ which simply means "book" but later "any authoritative book") is simply a single fixed set of stories, replete with stories of magical trees, talking serpents and donkeys (okay; admittedly just one of each,) cud chewing rabbits, four legged insects, global fluds (that leave no evidence,) people rising from the dead, walking on water, turning water into alcoholic beverages, people turned into salt, trick sticks that turn into snakes when dropped, burning bushes, people living in giant fish for days on end, the promise on surviving ones own death, mystical realms. And all manner or other mystical nonsense and Wooberish.

Hmmm. No, if you don't mind, I think I'll stick with the dynamically progressive Science. Along with its 'parent' Philosophy, and their overriding foundation; Reason. Thanks all the same.

You stick with your fixed backward magic man book of stories, founded on nothing but (overactive) imagination and emotion, if you so wish.

What can we gain from knowing there are more galaxies, or things like that. Sure, tjey're fun facts, but do nothing to aid understanding. Look to actual wisdom.

Oh I do. I am a student of philosophy after all. And as you know Philosophy is "the Love of Wisdom." That too is an open search. You however seem to be dogmatically fixed on one little doctrine and it's magic book.

I feel sorry for your love of ignorance, I really do. Learning all of that one can about the most wonderful universe we live in (and perhaps one day beyond even that!) is a most never-endingly joyous endeavour. But if you prefer to remain within your little religious doctrine bubble, and taking to your little imaginary friend you call a god, with your rigid fixed Truth^TM, then that is your choice I suppose.