[Guest]

Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.)

[Guest]

(IF so then you are no REALLY a Roman Catholic; you just play one.)

From my understanding, that is the requirement for club membership. Put on a good show to the public and you're in. If you get caught, just tell the man in the box that you really didn't mean it and he gives you a free pass.

Apparently, hypocrisy doesn't fall under the 9th commandment. "Bearing false witness" sounds like it should cover this, but it only covers discussion of the non-Christian gods. Convenient.

[Izzy]

Leveticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

seems pretty straight forward, right?

Now that I got the ball rolling, lets look into the subjects of polygamy, incest and slavery!

Now, I know were not meant to go around interpreting the bible (), but there are some other ways to think of this. For instance, 'as' can mean 'while'. So it might actually be against adultery, not gay stuff. I've also heard that some Biblical scholars think the "thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman blah blah" line is about homosexual rape, not consensual sex. It was all the rage back then to rape everyone, men included, when you pillaged a town.

Jus' saying.

[Guest]

Now, I know were not meant to go around interpreting the bible ( ), but there are some other ways to think of this. For instance, 'as' can mean 'while'. So it might actually be against adultery, not gay stuff.

...or maybe it's against having threesomes. Tut tut, what a shame.

[andromeda]

Not by choice?!

You mean you are forced to believe that saying the right magic words over a cracker (unleavened bread, I know ) and some fermented grape juice magically turns it into human/god hybrid thingy flesh and blood, even though it sill looks, smells, tastes, feels and even sounds exactly the same?!

I can see how you are expected to play along with it etc. but can "they" actually control your mind?!

Or are you just saying you were baptised as one, and/or are expected to act as one etc.? (IF so then you are no REALLY a Roman Catholic; you just play one.)

It seems unfair that I was made a Cristian without my consent. There should be a law about that Now I probably can't undo it!

So my question for Bran and anyone else: How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

I should ask a priest about this. Actually I have a friend studying theology. I'll ask him and I'll let you know what he said.

I have nothing against people that believe in God it's just... I wanna choose and decide on my own. I don't like people telling me what to do (my grandmother) and what I should believe in and how to behave (except on BD *waves to Martini and rookie*)

[Guest]

It seems unfair that I was made a Cristian without my consent. There should be a law about that Now I probably can't undo it!

So my question for Bran and anyone else: How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

Are you serious?

I should ask a priest about this. Actually I have a friend studying theology. I'll ask him and I'll let you know what he said.

Are you seriously serious?

Either you believe all that catholic nonsense or you don't. If you don't, you were never baptised. You just had some fool put water on your head while saying a magic spell. I expect your head has had time to dry off by now, in which case it no longer affects you.

[Guest]

It seems unfair that I was made a Cristian without my consent. There should be a law about that Now I probably can't undo it!

So my question for Bran and anyone else: How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

I should ask a priest about this. Actually I have a friend studying theology. I'll ask him and I'll let you know what he said.

I have nothing against people that believe in God it's just... I wanna choose and decide on my own. I don't like people telling me what to do (my grandmother) and what I should believe in and how to behave (except on BD *waves to Martini and rookie*)

If you have no belief in Christianity or its sacraments, then why would you worry about how to "reverse" a baptism? The sacrament itself would only mean something to you if you held a belief in the religion. Other than that, some guy in a funny robe poured water on your head, said a bunch of stuff, and gave you a candle. As for whether or not people should be baptised when they're still young, you are probably right. That is the kind of decision that you should make on your own. However, I can't really see any problem with a parent taking their child to church. They are introducing them to something. My parents signed me up for swimming lessons, soccer, and baseball (as well as other things) without my consent as well. From a "freedom" standpoint, you should make whatever decisions you think are best for you, but I wouldn't be upset about being exposed to the religion (one could easily make an argument that a child should be exposed to many religions, and I can't say I'd disagree with that either).

Also, from a more religious standpoint, I think it would mean more to you if you made the decision, and took the steps to get baptised yourself.

[Guest]

It seems unfair that I was made a Cristian without my consent. There should be a law about that Now I probably can't undo it!

So my question for Bran and anyone else: How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

I should ask a priest about this. Actually I have a friend studying theology. I'll ask him and I'll let you know what he said.

I have nothing against people that believe in God it's just... I wanna choose and decide on my own. I don't like people telling me what to do (my grandmother) and what I should believe in and how to behave (except on BD *waves to Martini and rookie*)

The good news: You still have a choice.

The bad news: It sounds like your family/community may not be open minded enough to accept that decision.

ANECDOTE ALERT!!!

I have a good friend that is a devout Catholic. She was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc. Her religion is tremendously important to her identity. She is also a lesbian. The irony is that her sexual orientation, to her, is equally as undeniable as her faith. She could no more leave the church as love a man. (And I can assure you, she has not, nor never will, entertain heterosexuality as a viable option.)

The funny thing is, the church doesn't accept her. She is kind, honest, ethical, honorable, trustworthy, generous, helpful, tolerant, humble, pious, loyal... all exemplary qualities regardless of your beliefs. Yet she is somehow not allowed to be part of the church that claimed her at birth. We have openly corrupt, lecherous, sinful politicians who can use the church as an election platform, but truly good people like my friend are damned through no choice of their own making?

/ANECDOTE

My point is merely that anything that doesn't go along with the dogma is not easily accepted. Please don't turn this into a sexual orientation debate, as it will surely get the thread locked, and I won't be part of that.

[Guest]

That is... unfortunate. I suppose that is the only way to really describe that, Grayven. I have no real desire to defend the church community that made that decision, and personally am coming from more of a "good people are good people, and you believe what you believe" sort of viewpoint. However, I do think that the homosexuality thing is one that is bound to change. Racism changed, sexism changed, and I feel that it is only a matter of time until society can actually call itself "tolerant" with a straight face. However, even just using the discussions held here to judge (and the world is considerably worse), we are a long way from that. I hope that your friend can find some way to reconcile those two aspects of her life, though I would expect that it will require doing something along the lines of "keep the belief, ignore the politics of the church."

I do believe that that will change, eventually. However, for the moment there are far too many people that are locked in "change is bad, different is scary" mode, and I think that they will have to change before the church itself does.

[Guest]

However, I can't really see any problem with a parent taking their child to church. They are introducing them to something. My parents signed me up for swimming lessons, soccer, and baseball (as well as other things) without my consent as well. From a "freedom" standpoint, you should make whatever decisions you think are best for you, but I wouldn't be upset about being exposed to the religion (one could easily make an argument that a child should be exposed to many religions, and I can't say I'd disagree with that either).

Swimming, soccer and baseball lessons don't generally involve indoctrination into an arbitrary and unfounded belief system by means of fear and authority. If I were a neo-nazi, would it be OK to take my kids to pro-fascist indoctrination "lessons" so that they can learn all about my beliefs and be free to choose later? Or would that be something we should perhaps discourage? How is taking the kids to church any different? Exposure to many religions would be an improvement, but let's face it, doesn't generally happen. Even in that case you are merely subjecting a child to a set of viewpoints that have one common thread: religious belief.

[andromeda]

Are you serious?

Are you seriously serious?

Either you believe all that catholic nonsense or you don't. If you don't, you were never baptised. You just had some fool put water on your head while saying a magic spell. I expect your head has had time to dry off by now, in which case it no longer affects you.

But that ceremony was performed when I was in diapers so I can't say that I wasn't when I was

Well even if I don't believe in all that, water was still pored on my head and all my life I've been referring to my godmother, as godmother, in Hungarian it actually sounds nice So I can't just stop calling her that... so basically I wouldn't be reversing baptism for me but for other people, friends and family that believe in that stuff I know! Makes no sense.

Oh just ignore me

[Guest]

huh, Greek mythology. Marriage is between one man and a woman. No cheating, no premarital sex. (Zeus, Odysseus)

Enter Pandora

Nobody can force your church, or any other religious institution, to perform same-sex weddings. So, why the &#%@ do you care if it is allowed by law? Please explain how a (civil) marriage of two wo/men has the remotest effect on your vows before God. I mean, seriously, who gives a &@$#?

[Guest]

So my question for Bran and anyone else: How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

Does not compute. You want to be "un-baptized" and still remain part of the church? O.o

[Guest]

The good news: You still have a choice.

The bad news: It sounds like your family/community may not be open minded enough to accept that decision.

ANECDOTE ALERT!!!

I have a good friend that is a devout Catholic. She was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, etc. Her religion is tremendously important to her identity. She is also a lesbian. The irony is that her sexual orientation, to her, is equally as undeniable as her faith. She could no more leave the church as love a man. (And I can assure you, she has not, nor never will, entertain heterosexuality as a viable option.)

The funny thing is, the church doesn't accept her. She is kind, honest, ethical, honorable, trustworthy, generous, helpful, tolerant, humble, pious, loyal... all exemplary qualities regardless of your beliefs. Yet she is somehow not allowed to be part of the church that claimed her at birth. We have openly corrupt, lecherous, sinful politicians who can use the church as an election platform, but truly good people like my friend are damned through no choice of their own making?

/ANECDOTE

My point is merely that anything that doesn't go along with the dogma is not easily accepted. Please don't turn this into a sexual orientation debate, as it will surely get the thread locked, and I won't be part of that.

This is exactly why I do not believe in organized religion.

There should be outrage in the church about the casting aside of people who don't "completely" conform to the ideas of the religion.

Find me a religion where I agree with each and every ideal, I'll go everyday. It doesn't exist and the fact that christianity (catholicism and baptist, mainly) believes that someone goes who doesn't believe in everything they do, should be considered a leper and goes to hell, is sick. But, a man can murder 30 people, go to death row, atone and ask for forgiveness, he goes to heaven. And homosexuality is just one example of this.

I believe in God, I do not believe in Organized religion. I respect those that are devout, more power to you, but don't tell me I'm going to your hell.

d3k3 - exactly. If a church is against gay marriage, then cool, don't have them there. But the fact that the government has all but legalized it, or at least to the extent of benefits, with "common-law" marriages. They should be allowed to make it fully legal, but a church has a right to decline to participate.

edit: [/rant]

Edited April 29, 2009 by palmerc7

[Guest]

[...] I feel that it is only a matter of time until society can actually call itself "tolerant" with a straight face.

Pun intended? ;P

[andromeda]

Does not compute. You want to be "un-baptized" and still remain part of the church? O.o

Nooooo... no part of anything, that's the whole point! I don't wanna be part of any religion and I am, even though I can say that I'm an agnostic, but still the baptism remains even if I don't believe in all that

[Guest]

Pun intended? ;P

Haha, no. Sorry, careless usage of common phrases

[Guest]

Nooooo... no part of anything, that's the whole point! I don't wanna be part of any religion and I am, even though I can say that I'm an agnostic, but still the baptism remains even if I don't believe in all that

Involuntary religious conversion... hmm, there's an idea for Uberfaith. If we said that you became a member of our religion if we waved a feather duster at you and said some magic words, would you believe it? If we did it would you feel obliged to consider yourself an Uberfaithist regardless of your personal opinions? I need to know.

[Joe's Student]

Sorry about butting in, but for a long time on many threads I have read this debate on Religion in its many forms, it being an infinite back and forth that really achieves very little. One thing that has become clear though, is that there is a certain level of animosity towards those who 'believe' coming from the 'realists'. I can understand anyone feeling annoyance or anger towards people who force their religion upon others, feeling annoyance or anger that children are spoonfed a doctrine that they don't have much choice but to believe, and feeling annoyance or anger towards many of the inequalities some religions create.

I should say at this stage that I don't believe in any God of any kind and never have. But I have no problem with an individual believing what they believe. From personal experience I know a person's belief can be a great help through tough times. I grew up in a place that, before I was born, one side of the community was oppressed by the other, causing war, violence and everything it brings along with it. My family, and surrounding community, lived and suffered through alot of hardship etc. and I know alot of them relied subconciously on their religious beliefs. Especially the older generation, who having lived through a whole life of discrimination, felt that although they were condemned in their real life through default, they were able to take solace in the fact that there was 'a life', or a 'reward' even, in the form of the afterlife. I know my mother couldn't have carried on without that - however misguided - comfort.

So my point/question is this: Why do some of you who don't believe, here on BD, choose to become as bad as the preachers we all see and meet on the outside world, when coming on to a thread like this, and condemning those who do believe. Organised religion has many (too many) unacceptable downfalls, but it's hypocritical to deny someone their belief in a God if they don't indoctrinate or follow through with the inequalities (sub)conciously presented.

I hope this isn't taken out of context, as I agree as much as the next person that various religious teachings are wrong. But if someone believes in a God, and doesn't hate or discriminate against homosexuals [as an example] (I include many other things frowned upon by those teachings), then where's the problem? Let it be. Each to their own.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Joe's Student

[Guest]

I hope this isn't taken out of context, as I agree as much as the next person that various religious teachings are wrong. But if someone believes in a God, and doesn't hate or discriminate against homosexuals [as an example] (I include many other things frowned upon by those teachings), then where's the problem? Let it be. Each to their own.

I completely agree with your whole statement, except for the end.

I agree, each to their own, let it be. It only becomes a serious issue when people are persecuted for no reason other than religion. For example, gay marriage. There is absolutely no reason against it other than religion. Come up with an economic or justifiable argument, I'll hear it out. I think religion has gained such a strangle hold on our government and society that the morally wrong teachings are affecting people's rights. I cite gay marriage only because it was the topic that set off some of the animosity, there are others.

[Joe's Student]

I completely agree with your whole statement, except for the end.

I agree, each to their own, let it be. It only becomes a serious issue when people are persecuted for no reason other than religion. For example, gay marriage. There is absolutely no reason against it other than religion. Come up with an economic or justifiable argument, I'll hear it out. I think religion has gained such a strangle hold on our government and society that the morally wrong teachings are affecting people's rights. I cite gay marriage only because it was the topic that set off some of the animosity, there are others.

That's what I meant by "Don't take this out of context". I DO NOT AGREE WITH PERSECUTION BASED ON RELIGION OR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS . Just to be clear. I don't see why you disagree with what I said? I'm clearly stating that I believe the type of discrimination outlined by you is wrong.

I hope this isn't taken out of context, as I agree as much as the next person that various religious teachings are wrong. But if someone believes in a God, and doesn't hate or discriminate against homosexuals [as an example] (I include many other things frowned upon by those teachings), then where's the problem? Let it be. Each to their own.

[Guest]

We're arguing two different points.

No one here has said anything derogatory against those who believe. We are voicing against the fundamental inequalities.

Its an argument against those fundamentals, not the individuals. The teachings have ingrained themselves into society and government, that's where the line is.

[Joe's Student]

We're arguing two different points.

No one here has said anything derogatory against those who believe. We are voicing against the fundamental inequalities.

Its an argument against those fundamentals, not the individuals. The teachings have ingrained themselves into society and government, that's where the line is.

I picked you up wrong, sorry. But I'm not for those 'fundamental inequalities' either, but it has appeared, IMO, a few times that individuals were ridiculed etc in a few of these threads. That's why I posted.

[Guest]

I have a question for the Athiests. What would you do or think if the things in revelation started happening?

[akaslickster]

Well my two cents is that most christians do have a great gift. They are usually friendly, honest, and morally decent in nature, while at peace with themselves. That does not apply to everyone, these days. Instead of people knocking religion of others, they need to have the maturity to respect differences and simply mind their own business.

[Guest]

Bible says that you can atone at any point right? As long as you truly believe. And I'm not being facetious here, if the revelation were to happen, if Jesus actually came back, that would be proof enough for me. I would ask for forgiveness, I don't get the whole assumption that if a truly remarkable event were to occur, that we'd all be screwed or be too late to be forgiven.