[Guest]

Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.)

[Quag]

Brandonyy4u

your problem is you seem to be convinved the bible is 100% factual and true. and like most religious people you will accept whatever your religious leaders tell you.

4000 years ago you would have been a polytheist, monotheism was virtually unheard of.

2000 years ago sabbath was changed from sat to sunday to avoid persecution this was by some changed back but most keep the sunday worship.

1000 years ago you would have believed the earth to be flat and it would be heresy to say it wasn't

500 years ago you would have claimed the earth was not only the center of the solar system but of the whole universe. You would have been cheering for the sanctions on Galileo.

I presume you believe in intelligent design as creationists are having a harder and harder time deny eveidence that they are wrong. So once again the religious people modify their beliefs and state they they have never ever changed an they are following the original words of their lord as they recieved them from god.

I pity you, you may pray for me but i pray for you to wake up and see the light, the light of reason.

I don't understand your calender thing it was an aside, you obviously do not understand how our calender came into being. without such understanding your remarks are just confused.

When a child is born does he look the same as a baby as he does when he is an adult? No, God created us different so we would... hell I've got no idea

Yeah i concur on the last part.

The Bible says God sent down Hisonly son so we would be saved through him.

how far do you think christianity or any religion would get if you could find salvation outside of their religion???

Edited March 9, 2011 by Quag

[unreality]

Because that would take away our free will and our choice. What would be the point of making hundreds of thousand of perfect people? God was perfect and he has scars to show it. He died for you and me so that we may live eternally in heaven with him, if we choose to accept his invitation.

I hope you realize you sound like a completely insane person. Reread the above sentence from the basis of someone who has never heard of christianity yet; it sounds completely wackoo doesn't it? There's a simple reason for that - it is.

When a child is born does he look the same as a baby as he does when he is an adult? No, God created us different so we would... hell I've got no idea.

The Bible says God sent down Hisonly son so we would be saved through him.

we're different because we have different genetics and develop according to those and our environment, all of which are different. The universe is a system which needs no self-sacrificing son-sheep sky-man to rule it; it's much more interesting than that

[Guest]

Because that would take away our free will and our choice. What would be the point of making hundreds of thousand of perfect people? God was perfect and he has scars to show it. He died for you and me so that we may live eternally in heaven with him, if we choose to accept his invitation.

When a child is born does he look the same as a baby as he does when he is an adult? No, God created us different so we would... hell I've got no idea.

The Bible says God sent down Hisonly son so we would be saved through him.

Brandonyy4u: I'm curious, were there dinosaurs on Noah's Ark?

[gvg]

Oh, and where are the plants????? Ever notice that????

And you know, if you believe that the Bible is 100% factual, wake up.

It was written by humans. there are two creation stories and multiple contradictions. In the Jewish bible there are thousands of commandments, elsewhere it says ten. Etc.

Here are a couple of books for you to read:

Good Book: The Bizarre, Hilarious, Disturbing, Marvelous, and Inspiring Things I Learned When I Read Every Single Word of the Bible

God: The Failed Hypothesis

The God Delusion (which I'm in the middle of now)

And also, let me let you in on a little secret:

I was born catholic. I was baptized and got my confirmation in spring of last year. Then in the summer of last year, I started to think. Especially after my religion teacher told me that anyone who voted for Obama had to pray for forgiveness. Give me a break.

So, I thought. I realized: Science had no faults. I questioned this about my religion, questioned that. But not science. There was nothing to question; everything had evidence. there was no doubt, no dogma. I found this site soon after. It opened me up. And I found reason. (Well, gotta thank Izzy and Unreality for that one =))

I had a Jewish friend go through the same thing. And he's more hardcore atheist than I am. And there are many other examples. Especially in the honors science and math that I'm in (Sorry if it seems like I'm bragging, I'm not), there's a large supply of atheist, agnostic, deist, or very weak/questioning/changing theist. Most responses I get from religious people now, after I've shown them evidence or lack thereof, is "I'll see when I die." A fair answer, yes, and I feel partly the same way. But the whole point is this: Look around. Think. See the evidence. If you still have your reasons, well, OK. Iguess you see it differently.

Rant over. Sorry people =)

[Quag]

So, I thought. I realized: Science had no faults. I questioned this about my religion, questioned that. But not science. There was nothing to question; everything had evidence. there was no doubt, no dogma. I found this site soon after. It opened me up. And I found reason. (Well, gotta thank Izzy and Unreality for that one =))

Aww I always thought that I had something, no matter how small to do with that as well.

Now i'm all depressed and feeling unimportant, impotent and irrelevant. Why I might even go drink a beer or something and contemplate my uselessness in this universe.

lol

seriously I was also born into a sorta religious family. They didnt force anything on me and when i was about 8 years old (maybe more, maybe less) asked if i would like to go to church and sunday school. I thought about it for about 1 second and said "Do I have to?" When my folks said no but that they thought it would be good for me, I politely declined.

Personally i suggest you look up the council of Nicea. just google it or use wiki. It will shed light on all the crazy changes the church has done and why certain beliefs are what they are. Quick quick synpopsis. 325 AD, deciding on whether christ was son of god or not. If that tidbit isnt enough to get you to look it up then nothing will ever get you to look critically at religion.

[gvg]

Don't worry, you too Quag =)

I forgot cause you changed your picture, but you were there =)

[Quag]

Technically I just added a picture

still thanx anyway, already drank the misery beer think ill have a happy beer to celebrate

[gvg]

=)

[Guest]

Tell me, in the Bible where it does not show God as not being perfect?

Double negatives are fun eh?

I can't. I can't find one place where it does not show God being non-perfect. He is non-perfect throughout.

The reason I believe that God created everything is because no one could make something more beautiful more perfect than the world we live on, he sent the human race onto his perfect Earth at we've destroyed it.

So you believe because you ASSUME that this world is perfect and that someone made it?!

Define perfect. A biological system where most of life has to kill and consume other life in order to just survive? Earthquakes (Rather close to the bone right now as I live in New Zealand, where we just had one that cost over a hundred lives! At least one of whom was five months old) Volcanoes, floods, cancers, and on and on it goes. Not to mention environments that our species couldn't hope to survive in for long...

We are suited for our particular niche on this planet (which is nothing in relation to the rest of the cosmos, most of which would kill us dead in a second) but it is far from perfection. And that is not even counting the extra damage we continue to do with it. Damage we are only capable of doing due to it being so very fragile!

Normally things do change back with time but time is something that the human race is running out of. God is coming soon and we need to be ready.

Oooh scary. "Just wait til your father comes home!" (sorry, couldn't resist) Any evidence for this? Because I know Christians (an others_ have been saying this for centuries. "Now" is always the end times according to someone. Someday, just by chance, some of them will be right.

And yes, I've gone to church my entire life I was born in a Christian family and I've gone to Church ever since.

I was once the same. I grew up.

Which obedience is one thing that God tried to teach Adam and Eve at the very beginning of time, look where it got them.

You take that silly story literally? Really?!

As I recall The Elohim (that is what they were called in the earliest texts, only modern ones transcribe it as god - it essentially means "The gods of El", El being the chief god of the pre-Jewish Canaanite religion) commanded that Adam and Eve not eat the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which immediately begs the question:

How could they have known that it was good to obey that command, and evil to break it, if they hadn't yet taken the fruit. Which for some bizarre reason it is claimed that one needs to eat a piece of magical fruit in order to gain such a sense of morality!

In other words your god punished them for a "sin" which they were not even capable of understanding until they had committed it!

And don't get me started on punishing their descendants for "crimes" that not only had they NOT commuted, but were not even yet born (and thus could have taken no part in it, committed nor prevented. That's just sick, and immoral, man.

Read the bible: Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, Holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Yeah, immoral isn't it?

How many people have you killed (stoning to death is generally the preferred method)for working on the weekend brandonyy4u?

I tell you what; if you think that "sabbath" is Saturday, then I work it every week. So I am stuck between this punishment or being fired. I know which one is the bigger threat (to take more seriously) for me.

Yes but with it "official" it still does not make it right.

Huh?! Are you suggesting that a company changing its name to KFC is immoral or something?! The point is that it is just a label.

Ahhh but you are wrong, if you look at the regular calender, (sun-sat) it says Saturday is the seventh day (if you try to argue that) (it was the first calender made and its still being used) then you look at a mess up calender (mon-sun) it says Sunday is the seventh day.

Whatever you mean by "Regular calender"; I don't really care.

One year's calendar skipped eleven days too.

And the BC/AC (and BCE/CE too, same thing really) start with year 1:

2 BC

1 BC

1 AD

2 AD

...

Which is mathematically awful!

The calender was made up by a Christian in the 16th century anyway, based on a Guesstimate of when he reckoned Jesus of Nazareth was born, over 1,500 years after the questionable fact. You can't argue for any truth of Christianity (including this 'Special' day stuff) from the Calender. Any causation went the other way.

That's where people have been being mislead and it is still effecting people now and it will effect people for the rest of their lives. Because that's what they were taught by their parents. Mislead and they carry on the tradition from one generation to the next.

Doesn't affect me any. Sunday is the one day of the week I don't have to work at the moment. At other times it has been different, including a period where I worked a 10 day week - 4 day weekend roster, and periods where the days that I got off work varied from week to week; non week based rosters and rotating rosters etc. And none of it has any real connection to your religion or any others, even if there might be a historical connection or two buried in there somewhere.

[Guest]

Because that would take away our free will and our choice.

No it wouldn't.

Theists always say stuff like this. It only shows that they don't bother to think it through.

What would be the point of making hundreds of thousand of perfect people?

True. If God was truly perfect there would be no point for him to make ANY people , or any-thing, AT ALL.

God was perfect and he has scars to show it.

Scars? Doesn't sound very perfect to me.

He died for you and me so that we may live eternally in heaven with him, if we choose to accept his invitation.

He didn't die brandonyy4u!

And that silly scapegoating story (so fundamental to Christianity as it is) is ridiculous!

He sacrificed HIMSELF to HIMSELF in order to forgive us for a rule HE made up to begin with?! Why, was he not capable of just forgiving us?! And how does a BLOOD SACRIFICE absolve anybody of anything?!

I understand that it is an ancient of the Middle East tradition (including of the Canaanites and Jews)in which a village would (sometimes annually) get a goat, 'give' it their 'sins'/misdeeds (whisper in its ear or into a vessel tied to its fur or similar) and drive it out into the desert to die of thirst. And thus ceremoniously clean the slate and make a fresh start for the new year. But it doesn't achieve anything real, and nothing actually has to die to preform the ritual either.

When a child is born does he look the same as a baby as he does when he is an adult? No, God created us different so we would... hell I've got no idea.

An honest answer at last!

The Bible says God sent down Hisonly son so we would be saved through him.

The question though is; is it true? You have been indoctrinated into a mindset such that you just assume that of it is written in that book then it is true. Ask yourself: Do you do that with any other books? And if not, why the double standard.

[peace*out]

The Bible says God sent down His only son so we would be saved through him.

and again: you know thats true how?

"Oh - and i know in the bible it said that god made us in his image. however, the bible has been edited many times. How do we KNOW that it's in his image? and, if the bible was in "his image," why DONT we all look the same.

Oh - and how do we know god's a "he?""

the bible was written over 70 years after Jesus' death...wat makes you think that they would know the gender of god?

annnndddddd...you didnt answer the other q in here also.

[Quag]

Can't believe i missed this

That's where people have been being mislead and it is still effecting people now and it will effect people for the rest of their lives. Because that's what they were taught by their parents. Mislead and they carry on the tradition from one generation to the next.

And yes, I've gone to church my entire life I was born in a Christian family and I've gone to Church ever since.

Yes i changed the order on purpose. These are all your words Brandonyy4u. Please think about it. The first statement (actually 2nd that you wrote) makes sense. Now look at the second quote, Notice anything?

*edit* Wolfie if you're still thee I'd really like you to expand on your statement that man created god.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Quag

[Guest]

Brandonyy4u: I'm curious, were there dinosaurs on Noah's Ark?

Honestly, i can say no there were no dinosaurs on the Ark, and no i don't believe that dinosaurs ever existed.

[Guest]

I hope you realize you sound like a completely insane person. Reread the above sentence from the basis of someone who has never heard of christianity yet; it sounds completely wackoo doesn't it? There's a simple reason for that - it is.

we're different because we have different genetics and develop according to those and our environment, all of which are different. The universe is a system which needs no self-sacrificing son-sheep sky-man to rule it; it's much more interesting than that

I might sound wacko but it is the truth.

With out religion without God we would be nothing, we wouldn't exist.

[Guest]

Can't believe i missed this

Yes i changed the order on purpose. These are all your words Brandonyy4u. Please think about it. The first statement (actually 2nd that you wrote) makes sense. Now look at the second quote, Notice anything?

*edit* Wolfie if you're still thee I'd really like you to expand on your statement that man created god.

Of course I notice it take a Bible that a Seventh day Adventist uses then take a Bible of someone that goes to church on Sunday. Compare: they are almost identical so it wouldn't matter if I started going on Sunday or Saturday or for any other day. I would still be taught the same thing.

[Guest]

and again: you know thats true how?

"Oh - and i know in the bible it said that god made us in his image. however, the bible has been edited many times. How do we KNOW that it's in his image? and, if the bible was in "his image," why DONT we all look the same.

Oh - and how do we know god's a "he?""

the bible was written over 70 years after Jesus' death...wat makes you think that they would know the gender of god?

annnndddddd...you didnt answer the other q in here also.

OK, how old does the human race normally live to? I'd say 80's to early 90's so 70 years after is nothing. Back 1000 years ago people were living longer and were healthier than we are now, (It's a proven fact) Peter (one of Jesus disciples) started the Bible when he was imprisoned. He would know all about God because he followed him everywhere. And to the translation of the Bible. The Hebrew language in which the Bible was started is still spoken today.

[Quag]

Brandonyy4u

Again you missed the point. I'll accept the blame and try to be more clear.

Ignore the calendar it is an aside and not important.

You said

That's where people have been being mislead and it is still effecting people now and it will effect people for the rest of their lives. Because that's what they were taught by their parents. Mislead and they carry on the tradition from one generation to the next.

This could apply to anything. Now apply it to your religious beliefs. Think about it for a second. you said you come from a religious family and have always gone to church. Reread that quote. Now think about it. Is it even remotely possible that that quote could apply to your religious beliefs??

[Guest]

No it wouldn't.

Theists always say stuff like this. It only shows that they don't bother to think it through.

But it would, if i told you to be perfect for the rest of your life and you couldn't mess up would you be perfect?

True. If God was truly perfect there would be no point for him to make ANY people , or any-thing, AT ALL.

Your missing the point, the point of God creating us is so he can be with us in Heaven. It shows companionship.

Scars? Doesn't sound very perfect to me.

Scars are what we did to him of course scars aren't perfect, because we aren't perfect and we did it to him.

He didn't die brandonyy4u!

And that silly scapegoating story (so fundamental to Christianity as it is) is ridiculous!

He sacrificed HIMSELF to HIMSELF in order to forgive us for a rule HE made up to begin with?! Why, was he not capable of just forgiving us?! And how does a BLOOD SACRIFICE absolve anybody of anything?!

But he was capable and he did forgive them, With his dying breath he said. "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

And your wrong he did die but not for long he rose again to give us hope.

I understand that it is an ancient of the Middle East tradition (including of the Canaanites and Jews)in which a village would (sometimes annually) get a goat, 'give' it their 'sins'/misdeeds (whisper in its ear or into a vessel tied to its fur or similar) and drive it out into the desert to die of thirst. And thus ceremoniously clean the slate and make a fresh start for the new year. But it doesn't achieve anything real, and nothing actually has to die to preform the ritual either.

I've never heard it that way, the only way I've heard it is: You pick the most perfect sheep in your flock and you sacrifice it on an alter. If God accepts and see's that you are really truly want to be sinless he sends fire from heaven and consumes the offering. God has allowed us to no longer have to give our sins to him in that way. We can easily kneel and pray and ask God for forgiveness and ask him to pardon our sins

An honest answer at last!

The question though is; is it true? You have been indoctrinated into a mindset such that you just assume that of it is written in that book then it is true. Ask yourself: Do you do that with any other books? And if not, why the double standard.

No, I don't do it with any other books, because Gods word is law, and that book, the only thing that keeps this planet on its feet, that book that gives hope to everyone, gives life to you and to me, that brings this conversation together, is all about God and the victory he has won for you and me.

Edited March 10, 2011 by brandonyy4u

[Guest]

Brandonyy4u

Again you missed the point. I'll accept the blame and try to be more clear.

Ignore the calendar it is an aside and not important.

You said

This could apply to anything. Now apply it to your religious beliefs. Think about it for a second. you said you come from a religious family and have always gone to church. Reread that quote. Now think about it. Is it even remotely possible that that quote could apply to your religious beliefs??

Yes it could, but I'm willing to die for what I believe in. And if what i believe is true I pity those who have not accepted God into their lives. If its not true I'm glad that i lived my life believing in something.

[Guest]

Brandonyy4u

your problem is you seem to be convinved the bible is 100% factual and true. and like most religious people you will accept whatever your religious leaders tell you.

4000 years ago you would have been a polytheist, monotheism was virtually unheard of.

2000 years ago sabbath was changed from sat to sunday to avoid persecution this was by some changed back but most keep the sunday worship.

1000 years ago you would have believed the earth to be flat and it would be heresy to say it wasn't

500 years ago you would have claimed the earth was not only the center of the solar system but of the whole universe. You would have been cheering for the sanctions on Galileo.

I presume you believe in intelligent design as creationists are having a harder and harder time deny eveidence that they are wrong. So once again the religious people modify their beliefs and state they they have never ever changed an they are following the original words of their lord as they recieved them from god.

But we haven't changed since the beginning. We as Christian think the Big Bang theory is a sorry excuse that someone came up with.

I pity you, you may pray for me but i pray for you to wake up and see the light, the light of reason.

But i do see the light of reason, its right in front of you but you just can't see it.

I don't understand your calender thing it was an aside, you obviously do not understand how our calender came into being. without such understanding your remarks are just confused.

My remarks are not confused as early scholars have shown.

Yeah i concur on the last part.

how far do you think christianity or any religion would get if you could find salvation outside of their religion???

You got it, religion, Christianity are the only place that you can find Salvation. You are lost with out.

[Quag]

OK, how old does the human race normally live to? I'd say 80's to early 90's so 70 years after is nothing. Back 1000 years ago people were living longer and were healthier than we are now, (It's a proven fact) Peter (one of Jesus disciples) started the Bible when he was imprisoned. He would know all about God because he followed him everywhere. And to the translation of the Bible. The Hebrew language in which the Bible was started is still spoken today.

Actually Brandonyy4u it is a proven fact that people didn't live as long as they do now. Sorry but your facts are wrong. Not all of the bible was written in hebrew. Also the hebrew language like every language has changed over time and again do you read the bible in hebrew? or another language? if so then you are reading a translation with all the inherrent errors that go along with that. Though even if you read it in hebrew some of it will have been translated from greek or latin.

Yes it could, but I'm willing to die for what I believe in. And if what i believe is true I pity those who have not accepted God into their lives. If its not true I'm glad that i lived my life believing in something.

I am glad you admit the possibility that you your beliefs could be wrong, you have taken the first step to the only logical belief system there is, Agnosticism. I think it is fine you are willing to die for your beliefs just as long as you are not ready to kill for them. I too live my life believing in something. i believe there is no way to know if god exists or not.

[Guest]

Actually Brandonyy4u it is a proven fact that people didn't live as long as they do now. Sorry but your facts are wrong. Not all of the bible was written in hebrew. Also the hebrew language like every language has changed over time and again do you read the bible in hebrew? or another language? if so then you are reading a translation with all the inherrent errors that go along with that. Though even if you read it in hebrew some of it will have been translated from greek or latin.

Lol, they didn't have fire arms, they didn't have pollutants, they didn't have vehicles, they didn't have modified foods, I'm sorry to tell you that they did live longer and you need to tell your source that they need to re-evaluate their thinking.

I am glad you admit the possibility that you your beliefs could be wrong, you have taken the first step to the only logical belief system there is, Agnosticism. I think it is fine you are willing to die for your beliefs just as long as you are not ready to kill for them. I too live my life believing in something. i believe there is no way to know if god exists or not.

Well I'm sorry that you can't see something that is right in front of you.

Edited March 10, 2011 by brandonyy4u

[Quag]

Lol, they didn't have fire arms, they didn't have pollutants, they didn't have vehicles, they didn't have modified foods, I'm sorry to tell you that they did live longer and you need to tell your source that they need to re-evaluate their thinking.

firearms?? pollutants? vehicules? modified foods? ok where to start. firearms i suppose you dont realize that people have been killing each other long before firearms. pollutants. hmm yes can be a problem but they also didnt have sanitation, they lived with their animals. mnodified foods. heck they were happy to have any food most of the time vehicules you mean those wonderfull things that allow food to come to grocery stores so you can eat??

People live longer now today it is a fact. I'm sorry your bible brainwashing has told you otherwise but only in the bible will you see it say people lived longer and even then they make the claim for 4-6000 years ago not for 1000 years ago as a man of 40 was considered an old man.

But we haven't changed since the beginning. We as Christian think the Big Bang theory is a sorry excuse that someone came up with.

I list some of the changes Chistians have made to their belief system over the centuries and insted of trying to refute this you simply state that your beliefs havent changed??

I'm sorry but you'll have to do better than that.

My remarks are not confused as early scholars have shown.

No you have shown no understanding of the calendar or how it came about. Do you know that the calendar we use is called the Julian calendar? do you know why? Do you know that there have been other completely different calendars? What early scholars do you speak of? I'd love to know even one of them who can claim that the chinese/mayans/aztecs/greeks etc.. did not have different calendars.

[Quag]

Humans by Era Average Lifespan at Birth

(years) Comment

Upper Paleolithic 33 At age 15: 39 (to age 54)[6][7]

Neolithic[8] 20

Bronze Age and Iron Age[9] 35+

Classical Greece[10] 28

Classical Rome[10] 28 At age 15: 37 (to age 52)

Pre-Columbian North America[11] 25-30

Medieval Islamic Caliphate[12] 35+

Medieval Britain[13][14] 30 At age 21: 38 (to age 59) as an average for British aristocrats [15]

Early Modern Britain[9] 40+

Early 20th Century[16][17] 30-45

Current world average[18] 67.2 2010 est.

classical rome would be the era of Jesus FYI

Now please show me some statistics that show someone who lived 1000 years ago lived longer than they do today.

[Guest]

firearms?? pollutants? vehicules? modified foods? ok where to start. firearms i suppose you dont realize that people have been killing each other long before firearms. pollutants. hmm yes can be a problem but they also didnt have sanitation, they lived with their animals. mnodified foods. heck they were happy to have any food most of the time vehicules you mean those wonderfull things that allow food to come to grocery stores so you can eat??

People live longer now today it is a fact. I'm sorry your bible brainwashing has told you otherwise but only in the bible will you see it say people lived longer and even then they make the claim for 4-6000 years ago not for 1000 years ago as a man of 40 was considered an old man.

I list some of the changes Chistians have made to their belief system over the centuries and insted of trying to refute this you simply state that your beliefs havent changed??

I'm sorry but you'll have to do better than that.

No you have shown no understanding of the calendar or how it came about. Do you know that the calendar we use is called the Julian calendar? do you know why? Do you know that there have been other completely different calendars? What early scholars do you speak of? I'd love to know even one of them who can claim that the chinese/mayans/aztecs/greeks etc.. did not have different calendars.

lol, your funny, i realize there are many different calendars and yes i did know it was the Julian calender, I learned that along time ago. People have been studying time since time began. Moon phases position of the stars these all have been documented and made into scientific calenders to provide the public records of time and date, since the beginning till the end.