[Guest]

Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.)

[Guest]

Wow what a discussion that has been ensued, may I jump in. First of all one of the things that I have picked up on the discussion is the topic of Baptisim. I know that in a lot of Denominations of the church infant baptisim is frowned upon for the reason that the batistee does not choose to be baptised where as a child or adult who is able to comprehend the magnitude of the responsibility of baptism is able to publically affirm and accept the Holy Spirit and Chrisitanity for all that it is. To Denouce your baptisim could be like denouncing the Holy Spirit and therefore commiting the unforgivable sin. That is until you choose to recieve the Holy Spirit again. Now however I did not go through and read all of the posts but commenting to the one above. You do have a choice. You have the choice to follow the Bible and lead a christian life or you have the choice to leave the church and find you peace else where. Now if I understand correctly that Alot of those who were posting were raised Catholic. The Catholics have had a HIstory of bad choices mind you. However if you are not happy in the "Catholic Church" Leave go find a denonimation that fits you needs and fills your Hunger. Blessed are those who HUnger and thrist for rightousness shall have there reward.

As for the whole Homosexuality discussion, what on earth where you thinking. It is a very hot topic. However it is clearly stated in Genisis that a woman leaves her family and joins with a man. And if you remember correctly Sodom and Gamorroah, destroyed for living in Sin, man laying with man woman laying with woman. it is clearly stated.

Anywho that is my two cents, and is far as I got in the descussion before I headed to teh end.

[Guest]

However it is clearly stated in Genisis that a woman leaves her family and joins with a man. And if you remember correctly Sodom and Gamorroah, destroyed for living in Sin, man laying with man woman laying with woman. it is clearly stated.

Sure, lots of things are clearly stated in the OT. Do you follow all of the examples, or just the ones that are easy for you to follow because you happen to be attracted to members of the opposite sex? Here are some other things in the OT that are clearly stated:

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky… Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. – Deut 17:2-7

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods …do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. - Deut 13:7-12

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. – Lev 24:16

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife - with the wife of his neighbor - both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:10

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death. - Leviticus 20:13

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall ... say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. - Deut 21

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. - Exodus Chapter 21:20

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity. - Titus 2:9

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. - Numbers 31

Stone anyone to death lately, Sillymom26?

I'm guessing you're also a good woman that knows her place and keeps her mouth shut in church, right?:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14

And:

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. - 1 Tim 2

[Guest]

Actually, the video Expelled is pretty good. Another point is that you don't lose anything by having a religion, and sad, pathetic wretches who don't understand Christianity as a true Christian does are the only people who quit the church.

Expelled is not any good at all. I have watched it and it is such a series of straw man arguments and appeals to ignorance that I was appalled Ben Stein would attach himself to it. The thing is, it was staged as if he was converted from "Darwinism" by everything he learned. I also feel it is necessary to mention that the first half of the film is really not too bad, it is just poking tiny holes in the extremely sound theory of evolution (I would know, I am an Evolutionary Biologist). What happens next, and the actual focus of the film, is not a stance that Evolution should be replaced in schools. It is instead a theistic argument that since we do not know everything we could possibly know, God is the only other acceptable theory so both should be given equal time. The movie really focuses on people, namely scientists, who were fired for making such claims.

The point is, THEY SHOULD BE! Claiming unprovable theories like that is career suicide as a scientist. If any scientist is actually willing to make a claim like that or to not deny one submitted for publication is a hack. There is something to be said for the guy from the Smithsonian though since the article he published was not actually claiming design, just mentioning it as one of the alternative conclusions several believe. I think he should have been able to keep his job, at least until he started letting his personal beliefs wedge themselves into his work.

On that note, I also would like to draw attention to the intentional use of the word, "wedge" as it relates to another portion of the film in which Ben Stein goes to the Discovery institute and dismisses it as a benign non-profit organization due to the relatively small size of its office. The discovery institute is one that I did a very in depth research project for in a college course and it controls billions of dollars that it devotes in a large portion to promoting a specifically Christian agenda. Every major court case involving Intelligent Design or Evolution in the last 10 years has been funded primarily by this organization. Ben Stein dismisses it as a small group of good hearted people in a little office in Seattle, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The reason I chose to use the word "wedge" is because there was an internal memo from the discovery institute from 1999 that outlines their wedge strategy if 3 stages:

1. Scientific Research, Writing and Inquiry

2. Publicity and Opinion making

3. Cultural Confrontation and Renewal.

This is why the discovery institute funds scientists who are simpathetic to their cause, funds court cases and release press releases and basically tries to rin he very sound evolutiuonary theory by villianizing it in the monds who know too little about it to know better. to read about the wedge strategy, which I couldn't reccommend more, click here take a look at the Wiki but more imortantly at its source documents at the bottom. Elightening to all those christians who don't know that they are being manipulated.

[andromeda]

To Denouce your baptisim could be like denouncing the Holy Spirit and therefore commiting the unforgivable sin.

Not really! If I say God does not exist there is no sin cause your assumption is based on the fact that God does exist.

I live in a world where God doesn't exist even though a lot of people believe in some kind of divine entity and that's OK

However if you are not happy in the "Catholic Church" Leave go find a denonimation that fits you needs and fills your Hunger.

I do not need a denomination. I will always fight for honesty, justice and morality! I don't need a book to know what's right and what's wrong. I'm a sane, conscientious human being with many virtues and many flaws too but the bottom line is I'm a good person

Blessed are those who HUnger and thrist for rightousness shall have there reward.

Thank you and I do have a hunger and thirst for righteousness and that's an enough reward for me. I don't need a promise of "heaven". Being righteous is something I do for free.

Wow... this felt great. Thanks. I'm saying this with not even a hint of sarcasm and now, more than ever I know that I'm not an agnostic but an atheist.

Edited May 2, 2009 by andromeda

[Izzy]

and now, more than ever I know that I'm not an agnostic but an atheist.

Awws. *tacklehugs* 'Bout fecking time.

*edit* I <3 you. And am proud of 'ya.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Izzy

[Guest]

Awws. *tacklehugs* 'Bout fecking time.

*edit* I <3 you. And am proud of 'ya.

Me too

[Guest]

Since I brought it up in an earlier post, I did a bit more research into the Discovery Institute. As I said, I have done this before so I am not going to dredge it all up, but I found their 2007 tax documents specifically showing that they spent nearly 2 million dollars in 2007 on the center of science and culture, which is directly involved with all of the anti-evolution propaganda. I have attached the file so you ca verify it yourself if you'd like.

Discovery_institute_taxes.pdf

[Guest]

I will have this last say and then I am off this discussion. All it seems to be is to try to disprove christianity and to slander it and I shall not take part in a postmodernistic discussion since no one here really wants to be polite. I am a mom after all. But here is my Two cents. How can you have Atheism be with out God if God is in the center of the word itself. Theism being God, A being with out. therefore just being Athiestic is actually saying that there is a God you are just denying him.

[Izzy]

Actually, theism is the belief in the existence of god(s). A-theism would then meaning not believing in god(s).

[andromeda]

I will have this last say and then I am off this discussion. All it seems to be is to try to disprove christianity and to slander it and I shall not take part in a postmodernistic discussion since no one here really wants to be polite. I am a mom after all. But here is my Two cents. How can you have Atheism be with out God if God is in the center of the word itself. Theism being God, A being with out. therefore just being Athiestic is actually saying that there is a God you are just denying him.

I remember being polite and God doesn't exist that's what I said and I also said that it is OK for you to believe in God.

Believing in something doesn't make it real you know

Edited May 3, 2009 by andromeda

[Izzy]

but you believe in God and that's OK.

[Guest]

theos is means God, I have a degree in this. Christian Leadership. I play an active role in my church community just like Tabitha, pheobe and Lydia did with Paul.

[Izzy]

Whatever. Not every word traced back it its Latin roots is going to mean exactly what we want it to mean. Atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist. No matter how you try to twist that, it's going to mean that. Are we maybe going by the wrong way? *shrugs* Does it particularly matter? Well, no.

[Guest]

theos is means God, I have a degree in this. Christian Leadership. I play an active role in my church community just like Tabitha, pheobe and Lydia did with Paul.

Sillymom26, you have claimed that you aren't going to participate because others aren't polite (and even used "I'm a mom" as if you deserve special preference for having had a child). I have politely disputed your assertion that we should follow the OT simply because the OT tells us to.

Now you are back but only want to argue something that you think you have a chance of making a good argument for. Well, you don't.

theos is means God

Are we discussing a made up word "atheos" or the word "atheism". It was "atheism". "Theism" means belief in God or gods, right? "A" means without, right? Put them together and what do you have?

How can you have Atheism be with out God if God is in the center of the word itself. Theism being God, A being with out. therefore just being Athiestic is actually saying that there is a God you are just denying him.

"Theism" isn't "being God". It means belief in God or gods.

I have a degree in this

You'll find that appeals to authority will get you nowhere on this board, even if we could verify your claims. We have better authorities as to word definitions at our disposal. "Theism" doesn't mean what you claim it does and neither does "atheism".

[Guest]

You'll find that appeals to authority will get you nowhere on this board, even if we could verify your claims. We have better authorities as to word definitions at our disposal. "Theism" doesn't mean what you claim it does and neither does "atheism".

Even more than that, her degree is in Christian leadership, it is not in theology nor in linguistics. If you had a degree in theology, I would relish the opportunity to put my education up against yours on the topic of creation v. evolution or really any topic, you could even choose.

[andromeda]

How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

OK I have asked a friend of mine that studies theology and this is what he said:

"Hej Ne može se. To ti je ne izbrisivo...osim ako ne promeniš religiju. Eto... "

In translation:

"Hey You can't. It's irreversible... unless you change religion. Voila... "

EDIT: actually "izbrisivo" means "deletable" but I thought that irreversible sounds better

EDIT: this can only mean one thing... I'm converting to Buddhism

Edited May 4, 2009 by andromeda

[Izzy]

Convert and then leave. Hmm.. I wonder if Hedonism could become a religion. Where you are God and your purpose is to please yourself.

[Guest]

Oh my, I can't help but love religion debates. I haven't looked at this for a few days but it's been rather fun, hasn't it? Congrats on the atheism, andromeda. That made me go all warm and fuzzy inside.

"Hey You can't. It's irreversible... unless you change religion. Voila... "

That grates, I have to say, not least because you know it seems to make sense to the religious mind. Proceeding from the assumption that baptism gives you access to heaven, why would anybody wish to reverse it? To acknowledge the need you would have to acknowledge the possibility that the belief might be inappropriate, and that's not something you can expect a religion to do. Their raison d'être is bringing people in and keeping them, not giving them a way out.

The problem you have with the baptism thing interests me. I agree it would really suck to have some priest disrespect you by spouting religious crap at your funeral just because they claimed you as their own before you were old enough to know any better. I wonder if it really affects your funeral, or can't you just write a will specifying a non-god-bothering funeral? I suppose it varies from place to place and personally I'm reasonably confident my loved ones wouldn't stand for that sort of thing, so I haven't looked into it.

EDIT: this can only mean one thing... I'm converting to Buddhism

[evangelism]I just know Uberfaith is what you need. It's shaping up to be like Zen Buddhism, only a bit less ethereal with added whupass. We even offer you a fast track to atheism without losing any afterlife privileges! And the official endorsement of both Barack Obama and Chuck Norris!!! What other religion gives you all that?[/evangelism]

[unreality]

[more evangelism]Uberfaith is very customizable, andromeda... you can join a variety of denominations, or start your very own! Become part of the greatest religious community ever, and revel in the truth of the Essence today![/more evangelism]

[Guest]

How can one reverse baptism? I don't want to change religion either

I don't understand what you're looking for. You stated you're an atheist, so I'm guessing you don't believe having water sprinkled on you did anything magical such as cleanse you of the taint of original sin, correct? If you don't believe it had any actual effect on you, what is there to reverse? If I tell you I cursed you with bad luck, would you care about reversing the curse if you didn't believe I had the powers to actually have curses have some real world effect? Of course not, as you don't believe there's anything to be reversed to begin with. Same with baptism. You can't go back in time and change the fact that some water was one sprinkled on you, but since you're aware it no magical effects, who cares?

[Guest]

OK I have asked a friend of mine that studies theology and this is what he said:

In translation:

"Hey You can't. It's irreversible... unless you change religion. Voila... "

EDIT: actually "izbrisivo" means "deletable" but I thought that irreversible sounds better

EDIT: this can only mean one thing... I'm converting to Buddhism

And what effect does your friend think converting to another religion has regarding your prior baptism? You feel you need to convert to another religion to have some effect on your baptism that you'd like to do away with? This is all silly.

By all means, explore Buddhism (it isn't really a religion anyway, as religions are usually defined) and take the good and leave the bad or nonsensical parts, but don't do it because you were once part of a silly little ritual.

[andromeda]

[more evangelism]Uberfaith is very customizable, andromeda... you can join a variety of denominations, or start your very own! Become part of the greatest religious community ever, and revel in the truth of the Essence today![/more evangelism]

I'll start my own Braindenism!

I don't understand what you're looking for. You stated you're an atheist, so I'm guessing you don't believe having water sprinkled on you did anything magical such as cleanse you of the taint of original sin, correct? If you don't believe it had any actual effect on you, what is there to reverse? If I tell you I cursed you with bad luck, would you care about reversing the curse if you didn't believe I had the powers to actually have curses have some real world effect? Of course not, as you don't believe there's anything to be reversed to begin with. Same with baptism. You can't go back in time and change the fact that some water was one sprinkled on you, but since you're aware it no magical effects, who cares?

I already answered this before didn't you read the posts after that one? It's not for me, it's for the believers!

[Guest]

I already answered this before didn't you read the posts after that one? It's not for me, it's for the believers!

What is it you want to do for believers? What effect do you believe converting to Buddhism will have on believers regarding your baptism and why does it matter to you?

[andromeda]

What is it you want to do for believers? What effect do you believe converting to Buddhism will have on believers regarding your baptism and why does it matter to you?

Nooo... you got it all backwards undoing baptism is for the believers (friends and family are believers ) even though it's impossible to undo it as we already established

Converting to Buddhism was just a joke

It doesn't matter to me at all, baptism I mean.

Why is this so "interesting" to you?

[Guest]

Nooo... you got it all backwards undoing baptism is for the believers (friends and family are believers ) even though it's impossible to undo it as we already established

What part do I have backwards? You said you want to undo baptism for the believers and I'm asking what sort of effect you're looking for.

Why is this so "interesting" to you?

You're an atheist looking for some effect from undoing a ritual you don't believe had any effect to begin with. I'm curious what effect you're looking for in any sort of baptismal reversal.