[Guest]

I think they do exist religiously (not as you think they do)

Edited November 2, 2008 by guest_7314

[andromeda]

I know what you were trying to say, that our ideas about nature are only as true as we know them. But that's not as true as it seems - we always test and re-examine what we know (at least scientists do, it's the best way to evaluate old knowledge and ascertain new knowledge). So the idea of aether wasn't held "true" for very long before tests eradicated the concept. It had been brewing in minds for a while, but when it was proposed as a scientific principle, it didn't take too long before a clever test was devised and it was proved false. So we don't "hold on" to our notions about nature. Think about how Einstein completely smashed the old ideas of gravity, just after some thought and some experiments. Well a LOT of thought and a LOT of experiments have gone into ghosts, and returned negative results. Even if you don't accept that ghosts existing defies all constancy, you still have the overwhelming scientific invalidation against the concept

edit: Just to be clear, it IS possible. I have an open mind, and the "einstein of ghosts" could come along and prove that ghosts exist. Until such a radical (and improbable ) event, you should live your life assuming that ghosts do not exist (which you probably do anyway, let's face it, I don't think it pops into your mind much ;D)

I have no preconceived notions. I'm open minded to any explanation and interpretation, as all true scientists should be. So everything paranormal I save in the INCONCLUSIVE file.

I posted a link for poltergeists in one of my previous posts. I think those are the most interesting "ghost stories"!

[Guest]

I have no preconceived notions. I'm open minded to any explanation and interpretation, as all true scientists should be. So everything paranormal I save in the INCONCLUSIVE file.

I posted a link for poltergeists in one of my previous posts. I think those are the most interesting "ghost stories"!

I think it's important to keep an open mind about things which lack an explanation. The trouble is that such things are often taken as evidence of whatever nonsense people want to think, when actually all they demonstrate is that, on a particular occasion, nobody was quite sure what was going on. Since being confused and misinterpreting things is human nature, (not to mention deliberately cooking up hoaxes) it isn't at all surprising that there is the odd incident of "the unexplained" on record. Too often people mistake unexplained phenomena for proof of anything they want, conveniently ignoring the fact that what they choose to believe is neither consistent with common experience nor directly implied by these unexplained happenings.

So while I agree in principle that we should be open minded, it's important to point out that this doesn't mean that we should consider any unsupported hypothesis to be realistic. Like ghosts, for example. If they exist, why don't we see them all the time? If they are the spirits of dead people the world should be packed full of them. If I saw a ghost, the first thing I would do would be to enquire into the nature of what I have seen, to ascertain for certain whether it is a dream, hallucination, reality (and in that case, a real what?) Why is it that people who see ghosts always seem to think they know what they are looking at? ("Oh, yes, that must be a ghost!") Something which defies all common knowledge deserves a little more enquiry, you'd think. This willingness to believe one particular thing is very questionable.

So yes, there are a few isolated recorded incidents of things happening which people were not able to explain at the time, and insufficient data exists for us to explain them now. But we have no means of concluding anything from this. I posted about software miracles a while back in the theism discussion. To summarise, as a software designer I occasionally encounter "the unexplained" in the shape of logically impossible phenomena occurring within software I have written. But invariably these little miracles turn out to be my mistake, caused by something working in a way which I hadn't anticipated. In this situation I have the ability to whittle away at "the unexplained" until I find the explanation. But normally we don't and it just has to remain unexplained. It's important to acknowledge what the unexplained is: Nothing more or less than a lack of data.

[Guest]

Ummm..Well if ghosts DO exsist I wouldn't be afraid but I don't really think they do. I would belive in aliens before ghosts. PLEASE OH PLEASE READ MY PUZZLES/RIDDLES!

[Guest]

I think you guys put to much thought into it....

Well for one... Neither Itachi-san nor octopuppy know enough about death in order what happens after it. If you become a gost the please by all means, come to haunt me. If not you guys can send me something and i will know it's from you. Otherwise if you guys cannot and when i die... i'll come meet you guys and keep you sane. Have you ever read Memnoch the Devil by Ann Rice? Tis a very good book actually.... one of my favorites. (wait... according to lemonymelon it's favourties***)

[itachi-san]

I think you guys put to much thought into it....

You're right about this first statement.

Well for one... Neither Itachi-san nor octopuppy know enough about death in order what happens after it.

What does "knowledge about death" (whatever that is trying to implicate) have to do with this discussion? This discussion is about ghosts. Who "sees" ghosts? Living people do. And let me assure you that both I and octopuppy are living. We don't need to die to figure out something doesn't make sense and has no proof to justify its existence. I don't even see the need to have an open mind about ghosts, in the hopes that maybe in the future someone will prove they exist; that is just not going to happen. There are way too many reasons for ghosts not to exist. And must I remind you that books, movies, etc... do not count as proof?

[Guest]

I think you guys put to much thought into it....

Well for one... Neither Itachi-san nor octopuppy know enough about death in order what happens after it. If you become a gost the please by all means, come to haunt me. If not you guys can send me something and i will know it's from you. Otherwise if you guys cannot and when i die... i'll come meet you guys and keep you sane. Have you ever read Memnoch the Devil by Ann Rice? Tis a very good book actually.... one of my favorites. (wait... according to lemonymelon it's favourties***)

and yet you still spelt favourites wrong tsk tsk.

anyway

GHOSTS: hmm. i don't exactly believe in people coming back to earth as ghosts (but i believe in our souls being resurrected on Day of Judgement and stuff) but i do believe in jins which are kind of like genies in Islam.

[Guest]

I believe in spirits 100% but I don't think they are around to haunt us...

I have seen my great tata's(my dad's grandfather) ghost about 4 times. Only once out of the four did I actually see his entire body... the other three times it was shadows at least thats how I can explain them...

So my tata passed away and since he was the one who had built the house my dad didn't want it to be lost from the family so we moved in... This house was one of those old looking houses where an entire wall would be covered with mirror tiles and the rest of the walls had wood paneling and the carpet was red and it was always dark even with lamps and stuff... we also had a full length mirror at the end of the hallway so it looked like the hallway continued on... Anyway this hallway was shaped in a L with the mirror being at the top of the L...

Well the night of the 1 yr anniversary of his death we had a small family get together at the house, well you know how people always say "He's with us now", "I can feel him around", or "He's looking on us now"... Well i found out later that it was true... After everyone left and we went to bed I got up maybe around 11pm or so to go to the rest room which was at the other end of the L shaped hallway... I finished and started going back towards my bedroom and while looking in the full length mirror in front of me I saw his reflection in the mirror of his back walking away so if his actual body were there in the house he'd be walking towards me(hope that makes sense)... It wasn't very clear, more like a silouette(sp?) so ya it was very quick and it dissapeared as soon as I realized what it was... the funny thing is, I wasn't afraid because I loved him very much, after that I would see shadows move behind me when I would look into the tile mirrors that covered a wall in the living room.... I would have probably not stopped seeing them but my little sister told my mom that she would see things so i told her about what I saw and the next day she had my dad tearing down the tiles, we kept the full length at the end of the hall because my mom used it to look at herself when she would pick an outfit...

well maybe about 1yr and a half later we were at my cousins house and we found out that my grandmother(my dad's mother) passed away and when we got home the mirror at the end of the hall had shattered as if a ball had been thrown at it or as if someone had punched it so after that my mom couldn't take it anymore so we moved and my uncle took the house...

A year later my little brother was born and when he was only a year old, he started talking and among his first words were of course mama and dada but he also said bobi(pronounced bobee)... Bobi was what we called my grandmother because she didn't like being called anything that made her feel old so she picked that nickname for us since it was easy to say even as a toddler Since he hadn't even been born yet when she passed away, it made me believe that she was visiting him...

I know this sounds a little over the top and no one ever believes me but thought I would share

Edit: Sorry for the length and all the grammatical errors

Edited November 4, 2008 by sweetness kat

[andromeda]

I believe you kat...

Edited November 4, 2008 by andromeda

[Guest]

I believe ghosts do exist. Some are visible, some are not. I know many times I've laid on the bed or sofa, and actually felt someone sit next to me. I could feel the depression of the cushion. When I opened my eyes no one was there. And, when my mom died, I saw what I think was her spirit rise. It was a wavy thing above her head, lasting only a few seconds. It's probably her sharing the sofa too!

[Guest]

A. Person, I'm sorry, but you'd have to be pretty daft to even begin to state that we don't have any proof China exists. There's loads and loads and loads (and loads and loads) of evidence to suggest that it is there. World maps, Chinese food, satellite images, etc. etc. etc. There's no proof to prove that China doesn't exist because it does. Not to be rude or anything, but what were you thinking? To not believe in something you've never experienced with any of your senses and to say a country that is quite blatantly existent does not exist are two *way* different thing... <_<

Who says China exists? World maps-we're believing pieces of PAPER now, but not "half-asleep" people? Chinese food-anyone could've invented that, and given it that name to make it more widely-spread. Satelite images-hello, they're machines!(and they're built and repaired by OTHER half-asleep people...)Who says China "blatantly exists?" And I have NEVER experienced China with any of my senses, so how is it different from believing in ghosts?(and quagamagas)

Edited November 5, 2008 by A. Person

[Guest]

Actually, andromeda, people just didn't "believe" in ether and then try to prove it and end up disproving it (with the famous silvered mirror experiment). Ether was a valid scientific thought, it was known as "luminiferous ether" and had scientific proposition with it: basically that all waves need a medium to propagate through. Ie, water waves need water. Sound waves need air or some other material to propogate through. Thus the belief was that light needed some medium to propagate through - light had been observed within a vacuum, so they knew it was something other and more undetectable than air. They called this the "luminiferous ether", as the medium for light to travel through. Thus as the earth rotated, the "ether wind" would shift directions, so a variety of experiments were done..... which disproved the idea of aether.

So scientists start assuming something DOESN'T exist. If an idea emerges scientifically or even semi-scientifically (like ether), they test it, and some cases it's true, some cases it's not. And all tests of 'ghosts' have been inconclusive and in much favor against them, just like ether

A Person: So you believe in quagamas? By your own logic, it would be more irrational to NOT believe in quagamas than to believe in them. And yet, I'm sure you don't believe in quagamas. See how your assertion is flawed? You need something else that justifies your belief in ghosts other than ridiculously faulty logic, or would you believe everything that everyone tells you

ARE YOU KIDDING? OF COURSE I BELIEVE IN QUAGAMAGAS!

[unreality]

Good, you're consistent

[Guest]

Good, you're consistent

Not only am I consistant, but I'm persistant, and argumentative, and...I'm going to bed.

[Izzy]

I'm trying not to say anything I would regret if a mod came by and read this. If you want to believe China doesn't really exist, fine by me. Let yourself look like an idiot. If you don't believe China exists, you might as well throw out everything else we have proof of that exists. Like the President, the war in Iraq, the rest of the world period, all the bands you listen to... Have you ever heard of the Allegory of the Cave? Google it if you haven't. Basically, you're acting like one of the people sitting in the darkness, refusing to believe that the world behind you is real. The world behind you is clearly real, but since you've never experienced it, it must not be, right?

The thing that's really irritating though is that you and I both know you really believe in China.

[andromeda]

Not only am I consistant, but I'm persistant, and argumentative, and...I'm going to bed.

Don't forget to check under the bed and behind the curtains! jk

[Izzy]

Not only am I consistant, but I'm persistant, and argumentative, and...I'm going to bed.

What bed? With your logic, you have no bed. I've never come into contact with your bed, and albeit you have, I haven't, so it must not exist.

[Guest]

FOR ME, i believe in ghosts or whatsoever supernatural is.. as I believe in God, angels, as well as Satan.

[Guest]

What bed? With your logic, you have no bed. I've never come into contact with your bed, and albeit you have, I haven't, so it must not exist.

In that case, I should probably sleep on the floor tonight.

Except I have come into contact with my bed, and I can see it, feel it, hear it when I drop stuff on it, smell it(doesn't have much of a smell), and I can taste it-(yuck, cottony)

[itachi-san]

I can't help but keep returning to this topic for mostly one reason. I'm surprised that not only a lot of people believe in ghosts, but that more people believe in them than don't.

So I have a question to all the people who believe in ghosts: can you post even one single tiny piece of evidence that ghosts exist? If ghosts did exist trust me, I'd be willing to undergo any haunted house, any test, any scary ordeal, whatever it takes to see it for myself. So please, what is the proof, trick, or circumstance you're all keeping secret?

[Izzy]

In that case, I should probably sleep on the floor tonight.

Except I have come into contact with my bed, and I can see it, feel it, hear it when I drop stuff on it, smell it(doesn't have much of a smell), and I can taste it-(yuck, cottony)

Oh, so it's enough for me to believe you because you've to seen/felt/blah your bed, but you won't take the word of the 1.3 billion people living in China? Do you see the problem here?

And I don't want anyone turning my argument around. (To that because I've never experienced ghosts it means they don't exist.) I'm speaking of purely physical things here. If I wanted to, I could go see A. Person's bed, and if s/he wanted to, s/he could go to China.

[andromeda]

I can't help but keep returning to this topic for mostly one reason. I'm surprised that not only a lot of people believe in ghosts, but that more people believe in them than don't.

So I have a question to all the people who believe in ghosts: can you post even one single tiny piece of evidence that ghosts exist? If ghosts did exist trust me, I'd be willing to undergo any haunted house, any test, any scary ordeal, whatever it takes to see it for myself. So please, what is the proof, trick, or circumstance you're all keeping secret?

You'll going to like this one than - The Shady Science of Ghost Hunting

It's pretty long. I read the whole thing and I agree with the guy, but I agree even more with Howard765 who posted a comment about that article!

There are documented strange events that scientists didn't manage to explain.

I think that it's not up to ghost believers to prove that ghosts exist, but it's up scientists to give plausible scientific explanations of some "ghost encounters" and prove that it had nothing to do with "supernatural" (I don't like that word btw, because like I said at Impervious's thread about paranormal - nothing happens in contradiction with nature, but in contradiction with what we know about nature). This makes more sense, because IF ghosts do exist, we know nothing about their nature and what instruments we can use to detect them. So... scientists, skeptics should go and debunk every and each ghost encounter. Those that remain unexplained they could tag, for the sake of their reputation , as inconclusive...

[unreality]

So scientists should debunk every claim of alien abduction? Every sighting of bigfoot? Every head shot of Nessie? Scientists aren't some "resource" that have nothing better to do than running around doing the bidding of paranoid people who believe a government conspiracy or supernatural fairy tale is behind every corner. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be a scientist (at all), but I respect them, and they have a hell of a lot better things to do than run around and debunk every silly claim of someone's dead grandpa speaking to them in a ghastly foglike semitransparent form. For example, the computer you are typing your words on. Or advanced particle physics. Or the technologies that save lives in car crashes.

[andromeda]

So scientists should debunk every claim of alien abduction? Every sighting of bigfoot? Every head shot of Nessie? Scientists aren't some "resource" that have nothing better to do than running around doing the bidding of paranoid people who believe a government conspiracy or supernatural fairy tale is behind every corner. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be a scientist (at all), but I respect them, and they have a hell of a lot better things to do than run around and debunk every silly claim of someone's dead grandpa speaking to them in a ghastly foglike semitransparent form. For example, the computer you are typing your words on. Or advanced particle physics. Or the technologies that save lives in car crashes.

Here you are again attacking me for no reason... and don't pretend that you don't know what I was trying to say. Yes I said 'each and every' (it looked good when I put it black on white ), but 95% of those "ghost encounters" you CAN debunk by sitting in front of your computer. I meant those borderline cases where you can't blame the wind, cats and rats or whatever...

Scientists have done more meaningless things than debunking "ghost stories", for example - how much force you need to open a bag of potato chips... Ghost are at least more interesting than that

[itachi-san]

You'll going to like this one than - The Shady Science of Ghost Hunting

It's pretty long. I read the whole thing and I agree with the guy, but I agree even more with Howard765 who posted a comment about that article!

There are documented strange events that scientists didn't manage to explain.

I think that it's not up to ghost believers to prove that ghosts exist, but it's up scientists to give plausible scientific explanations of some "ghost encounters" and prove that it had nothing to do with "supernatural" (I don't like that word btw, because like I said at Impervious's thread about paranormal - nothing happens in contradiction with nature, but in contradiction with what we know about nature). This makes more sense, because IF ghosts do exist, we know nothing about their nature and what instruments we can use to detect them. So... scientists, skeptics should go and debunk every and each ghost encounter. Those that remain unexplained they could tag, for the sake of their reputation , as inconclusive...

Thanks for replying! I read the article and Howard765's comment and well... the article is pretty much just common sense like: "The whole idea of ghosts runs into trouble as soon as a little logic is applied"

The comment by Howard is simply not proof of anything. I'm not attacking you, it's just that a comment from a guy who claims to have worked in a haunted building is worth nothing when it comes to evidence. It's just hearsay.

Edit: about the scientists: I'm certain that scientists have been looking into the existence of ghosts since there have been scientists (a very long time to say the least) and guess what? All that time hasn't dug up one shred on concrete proof. So I have to agree with unreality and say it's a waste of time. It's like looking for a ball in an empty room. How long are you going to stare at the walls and floor until you give up? (not you personally, just any ghost chaser)

[andromeda]

Thanks for replying! I read the article and Howard765's comment and well... the article is pretty much just common sense like: "The whole idea of ghosts runs into trouble as soon as a little logic is applied"

The comment by Howard is simply not proof of anything. I'm not attacking you, it's just that a comment from a guy who claims to have worked in a haunted building is worth nothing when it comes to evidence. It's just hearsay.

Edit: about the scientists: I'm certain that scientists have been looking into the existence of ghosts since there have been scientists (a very long time to say the least) and guess what? All that time hasn't dug up one shred on concrete proof. So I have to agree with unreality and say it's a waste of time. It's like looking for a ball in an empty room. How long are you going to stare at the walls and floor until you give up? (not you personally, just any ghost chaser)

Pffff... The thing about investigating paranormal is that it's more about collecting DATA than collecting evidence!!!

95-98% of the time there's an explanation for the collected data. I've seen science programs on NG channel about ghosts and debunking ALL the evidence about orbs and alleged "audio recordings of ghosts" and I absolutely agree with everything said there, but there are some data that still escape scientific reasoning (not in that program I've seen because they conveniently show only what they can explain).

Since you still don't get what I'm saying, let me put it this way - I don't believe in ghosts, I believe in truth (it's sounds like something said in "The X-Files" ). EDIT: I don't know the truth!!!!!!! I don't claim to know the truth!!!!!!!!!!!

I DON'T care about whether ghosts exist or not I care about ME being open minded for those information that can't be explained!

And since you still don't get it... I really don't know what else to say. <_<

EDIT: You DON'T know the truth!

Edited November 6, 2008 by andromeda