[itachi-san]

Here are the conditions of a new virtual reality game:

1) In order to play you must have the game installed into your brain (don't worry how it works, it's besides the point. It's not a placebo. And there are no visual signs that the game is installed.)

2) In order to start you must be sitting in a specified and unique place (assume a certain chair in your living room, or where ever you want. It is a place that is entered into the game's memory prior to installation and thus recognizes.)

3) Once seated say 'begin virtual world' and you enter the virtual game

4) The virtual game mirrors the real world exactly

5) The only way to end the game is to return to the specified and unique place, sit down and say 'end virtual world'

Here is my question (feel free to come up with your own questions as well)

Can you ever be certain that you are in the game or that you have exited the game?

[Guest]

Are we conjecturing or is there an actual answer here??

[Nikyma]

Interesting question. My question would be why you'd want to play a game that was the same as life? But, I don't think you would be able to know the difference.

[Guest]

go back to ur original, unique place and say 'end virtual world' or 'begin virtual world' respectively

[Guest]

1) get that pinch from Ocean's Eleven (the EMP) which will fry all VR circuitry, thus taking you out of VR world and sending you back into reality.

2) Come find me and take me to a bar. If we go in there and all the girls clear out, then we're in the real world. If I yell out "take your shirts off" and the girls all go topless and start squirting each other with a hose, we're in VR world.

[bonanova]

If you rose from the chair, walked two steps, turned around,

and saw yourself sitting in the chair, that would be an indication

you were in the virtual world.

But that may not be the case.

In Virtual World, perhaps you take your real body with you,

or your real body is removed or becomes invisible.

After reading largeneals's [2] idea, I bow to his creativity.

His would be better.

[Nikyma]

1) get that pinch from Ocean's Eleven (the EMP) which will fry all VR circuitry, thus taking you out of VR world and sending you back into reality.

2) Come find me and take me to a bar. If we go in there and all the girls clear out, then we're in the real world. If I yell out "take your shirts off" and the girls all go topless and start squirting each other with a hose, we're in VR world.

Too funny! LOL

[Guest]

neal's answers = roflmao!

[itachi-san]

1) get that pinch from Ocean's Eleven (the EMP) which will fry all VR circuitry, thus taking you out of VR world and sending you back into reality.

2) Come find me and take me to a bar. If we go in there and all the girls clear out, then we're in the real world. If I yell out "take your shirts off" and the girls all go topless and start squirting each other with a hose, we're in VR world.

HAHA! Too funny man!

I was just thinking about this and came to the conclusion that you could never be certain and I was wondering if anyone could prove the opposite.

Responding to bonanova's idea about seeing your body in Virtual World: there would be no 'other' or 'real' body to see because reality would contain all things real and Virtual World would contain all things replicating real things, so only one's virtual body would exist in Virtual World. One's real body would be sitting in the chair in reality while one's virtual body explores Virtual World.

[Guest]

I take it you have seen the 'Matrix' films Itachi-san. Which are a not unique in as much as they are thoghts that a lot of sci-fi fans and those that are wondering what the 'raison d'etre' really is - maybe that leads to philosophy so I'll say no more.

I can't answer the question, but this may help....

I think therefore I am - Descartes

I'm pink therefore I'm spam - Miss Piggy.

Note spam is more apt for pig than ham, ham is a particular cut from an animal - maybe you did'nt want to know that!

[itachi-san]

I take it you have seen the 'Matrix' films Itachi-san. Which are a not unique in as much as they are thoghts that a lot of sci-fi fans and those that are wondering what the 'raison d'etre' really is - maybe that leads to philosophy so I'll say no more.

I can't answer the question, but this may help....

I think therefore I am - Descartes

I'm pink therefore I'm spam - Miss Piggy.

Note spam is more apt for pig than ham, ham is a particular cut from an animal - maybe you did'nt want to know that!

Actually I'm really big into alternate space films and novels. The Matrix is good, but the sequels are awful. I recommend Dark City and Ghost in the Shell (the films that the Matrix ripped off and were actually better in the first place)

I was thinking about the matrix in relation to this, but you can prove that you're in the matrix. This is more like Existenz, also a recommendation, in which players are stuck in a virtual game within a virtual game, etc.. and can never be sure what's what.

I think Miss Piggy helps more than Descartes with this one

[Guest]

To verify that saying "end virtual world" works, leave a hint for yourself before leaving the game or talk to someone you recently saw in VR. If the hint isn't there or the person has no idea what you're talking about, then you're back to reality.

To me, the cool thing about such a game would be to test hypotheses that you may have that you don't feel comfortable or are unable to test in the real world due to societal constraints, cultural, ethical, etc. (For example, asking someone out that you're interested in or making a risky business transaction.) If the results in the game were successful, then you would be able to apply them to the real world by going back to your unique place and saying "end virtual world." Over time, you would notice bigger and bigger differences between the real and virtual worlds due to the different choices you made to the point that the game would no longer reflect the real world(unless of course the virtual world resets everytime you leave). Then you could be confident of which world you were in at any given time.

Also, if you stayed in the virtual world too long, you would probably start feeling hungry after a while not ingesting real food. And your body might start getting sore from sitting in one place too long.

[Guest]

sup ppl?

[Guest]

Actually I'm really big into alternate space films and novels. The Matrix is good, but the sequels are awful. I recommend Dark City and Ghost in the Shell (the films that the Matrix ripped off and were actually better in the first place)

I was thinking about the matrix in relation to this, but you can prove that you're in the matrix. This is more like Existenz, also a recommendation, in which players are stuck in a virtual game within a virtual game, etc.. and can never be sure what's what.

I think Miss Piggy helps more than Descartes with this one

Novels - not yet for me, any sci-fi film that is resonable, and yes follow ups you usually run out of 'new' material.

Did not hear of the two above, so I'll keep note of them for another time. Have you seen firefly? Film was great, loved the series, shame it did not take off....

Back to the quesstion - still no conclusive answer - guess there is'nt when you talk about 'what if' with a big if, but we are getting ther.

I'm in, but I'don't know if I'll know I'm in... Or do I know cos I sat in the chair and said put me in. But if I said take me out, would I reallly be out - would I notice before my body needs sustenance, and trigers me into realising I am where I am?

[Guest]

isnt the point of stuff like that that you can never be properly sure. a bit like the matrix.

[Guest]

This is easy, shesh!

Just get someone to chase you and hide behind a wall. If they just start running into the wall and don't come around it you are in VR, if they come around it you are in real life. Hasn't any of you ever played a video game?

[Guest]

To verify that saying "end virtual world" works, leave a hint for yourself before leaving the game or talk to someone you recently saw in VR. If the hint isn't there or the person has no idea what you're talking about, then you're back to reality.

To me, the cool thing about such a game would be to test hypotheses that you may have that you don't feel comfortable or are unable to test in the real world due to societal constraints, cultural, ethical, etc. (For example, asking someone out that you're interested in or making a risky business transaction.) If the results in the game were successful, then you would be able to apply them to the real world by going back to your unique place and saying "end virtual world." Over time, you would notice bigger and bigger differences between the real and virtual worlds due to the different choices you made to the point that the game would no longer reflect the real world(unless of course the virtual world resets everytime you leave). Then you could be confident of which world you were in at any given time.

Also, if you stayed in the virtual world too long, you would probably start feeling hungry after a while not ingesting real food. And your body might start getting sore from sitting in one place too long.

Well it all sounds like fun, IF it was possible, but could you not suffer deluisions/MI from not knowing where you are. For it to work well, to feel real would be stepping into the realms of confusion with some twisted hacker/gamer making you think your in when your out. That theory has been utilised in most SF series and many many films (we have one on the forum - Event Horizon). Similar in the film with dustin hoffman and the sphere - can't remember what that was called, probably Sphere. Anyway reality and VR becomes confused/muddled and we (I mean me) becomes LOST IN VR.. a title I don't cherish.

Well it looks like I think I have some answers, when it's available on beta via Microsoft I'll try it (NOT). Can you imagine bug fixing from within, "just a minute (read... if-ever) we'll get you out of there LIS."

Methinks it will come out in Tokyo first.

[Guest]

Just a thought but virtual from one philosophic point of view Deleuze (I think), uses the term virtual to refer to something (or someone) that every object (or person) carries with it, that which is neither its reality, nor merely what it could have been, but rather what it is imagined to be. "Virtual" is therefore taken to mean a potential state that could become actual. "Virtual" is not opposed to "real" but opposed to "actual," whereas "real" is opposed to "possible."

Worth a thought, hope it's of use.

[Guest]

Here are the conditions of a new virtual reality game:

1) In order to play you must have the game installed into your brain (don't worry how it works, it's besides the point. It's not a placebo. And there are no visual signs that the game is installed.)

2) In order to start you must be sitting in a specified and unique place (assume a certain chair in your living room, or where ever you want. It is a place that is entered into the game's memory prior to installation and thus recognizes.)

3) Once seated say 'begin virtual world' and you enter the virtual game

4) The virtual game mirrors the real world exactly

5) The only way to end the game is to return to the specified and unique place, sit down and say 'end virtual world'

Here is my question (feel free to come up with your own questions as well)

Can you ever be certain that you are in the game or that you have exited the game?

Yes you can be certain.

If you sit in your favorite place, and say 'end virtual world' and nothing happens, you are in real life. And the opposite way.

(This is assuming there is a simple flash that shows you are switching worlds.) If not, then the other way is a little more risky, and only one time deal.

Kill somebody, have the police chase to you to that chair. Since 'end virtual world' if they stop chasing you. Well you are safe, if they don't you are going to be screwed either way.

[itachi-san]

Yes you can be certain.

If you sit in your favorite place, and say 'end virtual world' and nothing happens, you are in real life. And the opposite way.

(This is assuming there is a simple flash that shows you are switching worlds.) If not, then the other way is a little more risky, and only one time deal.

Kill somebody, have the police chase to you to that chair. Since 'end virtual world' if they stop chasing you. Well you are safe, if they don't you are going to be screwed either way.

Well, the flashing part is not a rule, so that's out. In other words, there's no signal.

For your second assumption, consider this: perhaps you never entered Virtual World. So you killed someone and the cops came and arrested you in your chair. Therefore you cannot prove you entered Virtual World. This situation can also be explained by entering Virtual World and not being able to get out (assuming the game is glitchy and your words aren't triggering the game to end). With both cases as possibilities, you cannot be sure you are either in or out.

[grey cells]

I was thinking of this topic today in coll. , and a creepy thought came into my mind .

Now you are in the virtual world , you come back to your starting place(chair or something else) and again say , 'Begin Virtual World' ........ (gap for the meaning to sink in ) .

Now my question is , would you enter another virtual world inside the first virtual world (or) would you stay in the same virtual world (or) would you come back to the real world(sort of reversing the effect)???

[Guest]

Hurt yourself (pinch,cut). if it gives u pain then you are in real world otherwise u r inside the game. i guess once inside the game you won't have this feeling. Is my logic right??

[itachi-san]

Hurt yourself (pinch,cut). if it gives u pain then you are in real world otherwise u r inside the game. i guess once inside the game you won't have this feeling. Is my logic right??

Sorry, no. One of the rules is that it mirrors the real world exactly so any mental sensation would be replicated as well, and through the same means as the real world. If a bullet hurts in reality, it hurts the same in Virtual World.

[itachi-san]

I was thinking of this topic today in coll. , and a creepy thought came into my mind .

Now you are in the virtual world , you come back to your starting place(chair or something else) and again say , 'Begin Virtual World' ........ (gap for the meaning to sink in ) .

Now my question is , would you enter another virtual world inside the first virtual world (or) would you stay in the same virtual world (or) would you come back to the real world(sort of reversing the effect)???

Nice one! My thoughts are that it wouldn't end it. But starting new ones inside of new ones... that's interesting. Even if you say it 5 times in a row though, you can never prove you entered the virtual world even once though ... I think.

[Guest]

repeating myself, lets hope it's not MS-VR.

Interesting stuff now..

We go deeper and deeper into one virtual world after another (multivers-perpetual motion style).

Well it will freeze up sooner or later due to lack of memory - pls say it will.

Actually I'll let developers/pragrammers/suppliers/annalysts work on that - think it needs Duh puck or similar to call that one.

Looks like it's easy to go in and in and.... but not out! We are gonna need a bigger boat computer, and that's just to go deeper in till someone helps us out - need a matrix style phone call (that was always a cheesey bit, why did'nt they have mobiles in a futureistic film?)

Like time travel, VR is a complex theory and we don't know if it's possible and worth doing. It would haave it's uses for medical reasons (put in the criminal insane, though there are humanitarian reasons too - people with medical condition/s that could find comfort in the VR), You gotta be mad/sad to go in to something that does not guarantee a way out. What if someone messed up the exit accidentally or deliberately.

Ill think on this one some more - mind blowing itachi-san, Gr8 topic 5*s

[Brandonb]

Assuming that the game works, as stated in the rules, then yes. If you have sat in the "specified and unique place" and said "end virtual world" then it is safe to assume that you are no longer in the virtual world. If need be just repeat the phrase a few times.

Question, if it perfectly mirrors the real world exactly. Does that mean a reversal (mirror) of all visual perceptions as compared with the real world, or that it creates a perfect facsimile of the real world? Also, when you are in the virtual world, do you remain sitting in the same spot, or do you actually get up and walk around in the real world while you participate in the virtual world?

Edited April 10, 2008 by Brandonb