[Guest]

For all you science vs religion fans out there, I'll leave a link to a video I found.

It's quite interesting, but I'm not here to argue, just want to leave the link for you to make your own conclusions on the subject.

Enjoy!

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2010/11/03/how-science-saved-my-soul-video/

[andromeda]

WOW!!!

My favorite part:

The body of a newborn baby is as old as the cosmos, the form is new and unique, but the materials are 13.7 billion years old processed by nuclear fusion in stars, fashioned by electromagnetism, cold words for amazing processes and that baby was you, is you, you’re amazing, not only alive, but with a mind. What fool would exchange this for every winning lottery ticket ever drawn. When I compare what scientific knowledge has done for me and what religion tried to do to me I sometimes literally shiver. Religions tell children they might go to hell and they must believe, while science tells children they came from the stars and presents reasoning they can believe.

Thank you for posting this!

Edited November 13, 2010 by andromeda

[Guest]

When I compare what scientific knowledge has done for me and what religion tried to do to me I sometimes literally shiver. Religions tell children they might go to hell and they must believe, while science tells children they came from the stars and presents reasoning they can believe.

...Science tells you that you are stardust, solely made from remnants of supernovas...but not much more, except time. Life has no more meaning than staying alive, and so I'm inclined to live only for myself...it really does end up boring and disappointing.

It's sad to see religious people threatening kids with hell to get them to "believe"...instead of teaching them how to love and live for others, as Christ has done for them. Staying out of hell really has nothing to do with it. It's all people making mistakes. It's the religion (I prefer the term worldview, but I'm specifically referring to the belief in Christ as the Messiah) that is being twisted.

It's much more fulfilling going through life seeing others as children of a King, lives worth saving...instead of a bunch of stardust, just happening to develop the intelligence to survive...

[Izzy]

...Science tells you that you are stardust, solely made from remnants of supernovas...but not much more, except time. Life has no more meaning than staying alive, and so I'm inclined to live only for myself

Exactly: this is beautiful. There's a reason this is in my sig.

"Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget God. The stars died so that you could be here today." ~Lawrence Krauss

Why does life have to have a meaning? Why should that meaning be to please a jealous sky-fairy? Doesn't living for eternity undermine how awesome life actually is? The "just a bunch of stardust" as you so enthusiastically put it, shows the complex intertwining of our universe. This is so much more magical (and logical) than some sky-fairy going "Ah, yes *throws some dirt together* PEOPLE!"

*will actually watch the video at some point*

[andromeda]

...Science tells you that you are stardust, solely made from remnants of supernovas...but not much more, except time.

Wow... I'm impressed by the dew in the early morning on petals of flowers and you can't be impressed by the fact that we are made from stardust?? No wonder you're discontent and seek for higher power.

This part is from the same guy, different video (the video is titled "Spank Your Monkey")

"Most people can’t see, most simply don’t know enough of the truth, the facts, that they are energy made solid, consciousness informed from a harmony of natural forces, we might posses the only eloquent eyes that will ever exist, we might be the Universe’s poetry, it’s only chance to know itself, ever."

Brilliant!

Maybe that's our purpose, to constantly ask questions and seek for no less than the absolute truth!

Edited November 14, 2010 by andromeda

[andromeda]

Hahahahahahaha... Same guy SO TRUE!!!!!!!!!!

[Izzy]

Wow... I'm impressed by the dew in the early morning on petals of flowers and you can't be impressed by the fact that we are made from stardust?? No wonder you're discontent and seek for higher power.

*giggle* Have I told you that I love you recently?

LJ, if you have this "It's beautiful because <sky-fairy of your bidding> made it like that", you mentally erode the foundation of beauty that actually exists. If a child paints a picture, sure, that's pretty, I guess, maybe if it's my child. Compare that to the paints naturally falling like that and creating a sunset on paper, with vivid colors blending together so harmoniously it makes you want to cry. One is man-made, the other was chanced by nature. How you can't see the beauty in that is beyond me.

And yeah, life has no meaning. Sing it in the streets. Shout it from the rooftops. That means you can go through life without messing up and being bound by some abstract rulings of mythical beasts. It means you make your life what you WANT it to be, not what G-dawg allows it to be.

[Guest]

It's sad to see religious people threatening kids with hell to get them to "believe"...instead of teaching them how to love and live for others, as Christ has done for them. Staying out of hell really has nothing to do with it. It's all people making mistakes. It's the religion (I prefer the term worldview, but I'm specifically referring to the belief in Christ as the Messiah) that is being twisted.

Sorry, but the same book that tells about Christ, the Messiah, also informs about the terrible hell if a person doesn't accept him as his savior. And you are wrong. Staying out of hell is one the foundations of Christian faith.

You cannot ignore parts of the book that you don't agree with and still believe in its divine claims. Either you accept it as god's word and believe every word of it or consider it as just yet another attempt by humans to define morality and make sense of life by incorporating mythical tales and diving beings - a work which is prone to human errors, motives and delusions - a work limited by the understanding of those times.

It's much more fulfilling going through life seeing others as children of a King, lives worth saving...

Saving from what???

[peace*out]

LJ, if you have this "It's beautiful because <sky-fairy of your bidding> made it like that", you mentally erode the foundation of beauty that actually exists.

*just saying* maybe, to some people, that makes it more beautiful.

However, in my opinion the fact that little things all happening in the course of something that we call time could create me, the world, and give us material to live our lives is amazing. To me, if we think that if one "minor" thing was tweaked, we would be somewhere else, someone else, or have never existed at all...

My mind = blown.

This is an *amazing* video...i loved it.

[phaze]

Could someone please interview the stars and ask them why they made this huge sacrifice?

[Izzy]

Could someone please interview the stars and ask them why they made this huge sacrifice?

You're thinking about it wrong. The sacrifice the stars made is equivalent to you dying and becoming fertilizer.

I really want to watch the video, but still don't have the time. >_>

[Guest]

You're thinking about it wrong. The sacrifice the stars made is equivalent to you dying and becoming fertilizer.

I really want to watch the video, but still don't have the time. >_>

When you do watch it, make sure you have (much) more than 15 minutes, because you'll want to watch some of his other videos as well. From your posts, I can tell that you think just like this guy.

[unreality]

sorry to butt in like this after such a long absence from this forum, but I'm passionate about topics like this, about our human comprehension of the universe...

...Science tells you that you are stardust, solely made from remnants of supernovas...but not much more, except time. Life has no more meaning than staying alive, and so I'm inclined to live only for myself...it really does end up boring and disappointing.

agreed on every point, except, oh wait. I live for myself but love for everyone. Oh and I'm not bored and I'm not disappointed. How does that factor into your claim?

It's sad to see religious people threatening kids with hell to get them to "believe"...instead of teaching them how to love and live for others, as Christ has done for them. Staying out of hell really has nothing to do with it. It's all people making mistakes. It's the religion (I prefer the term worldview, but I'm specifically referring to the belief in Christ as the Messiah) that is being twisted.

again agreed. Christianity is at least an improvement on the Old Testament, if only a minor improvement. But it is quite sad when people are threatened into adhering to a particular group of writings and teachings just because of the promised eternal suffering if they don't. How many people believe "just to be safe" or "just in case"? And that logic doesn't hold up either when you're talking about a global scale, about all the religions in the world. You can't go to all of their heavens. You have to pick and choose which to obey... "okay judging by my current lifestyle I'm going to the Buddhist heaven, the Muslim hell, the Westboro Baptist hell, the Pensylvania Anabaptist heaven, the Michigan presbyterian church's heaven, Greek mythology's underworld, etc etc etc".

It's much more fulfilling going through life seeing others as children of a King, lives worth saving...instead of a bunch of stardust, just happening to develop the intelligence to survive...

Children of a king? Lives worth saving? Neither of those phrases make any sense, especially pulled out of context like that. It's empty speak. But "a bunch of stardust" forming the beauty of the universe, and over time "just" happening to develop the intelligence to not just survive but live and think and talk about things like what we're talking about, is meaningful, important, much more than whether or not you are the "child of a king".

[Guest]

I'm saying that I'd rather live with a purpose, I'm a predestined creation, not an accident. You can think it's awesome, I'm not saying that's a stupid idea, but being fashioned by God himself, and that same God loving you no matter what happens in life, is so much better.

@amateur, i'm not denying hell, i'm saying that Christians shouldn't be Christians just to get away from hell.

[Izzy]

Mmm.. I guess human arrogance and craving for purpose trump in LJ's worldview. I sympathize, but whatever makes you happy. (Not to suggest that that's how the world actually works, but.. eh.)

*edit*

@Amateur: Even the Catholic church realized indulgences were bad after a while. Religions are improving, lawl.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Izzy

[Guest]

I'm saying that I'd rather live with a purpose, I'm a predestined creation, not an accident.

So what's your purpose? (and by the way an answer along the lines of "to live in such-and-such a way" is not an answer to that question since it is merely a set of directives and doesn't imply that you exist in order to achieve a particular objective). In the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, Arthur Dent discovers that the Earth and everything on it is part of a computer designed to evaluate the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything. We were all being used as part of a massive experiment. That would be having a purpose. It would not be a purpose for our benefit, of course; the service of our own goals and objectives doesn't require a "higher purpose" to exist. The question of what God's purpose for us actually is seems to be something of a mystery, religion gives us assurances that despite appearances there is one, but seems unable to elucidate its nature.

Perhaps having a purpose would help some people to feel important. Whatever floats your boat, personally I wouldn't like to be a pawn in someone else's game. Whether the thing that is using us is Hitchhikers' race of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings (disguised as mice), or the petty deity of the Bible, it escapes me how it would benefit us to have a purpose.

[gvg]

I have yet to watch the video. I just want to say something first, to both the atheist and fundamentalist sides (As well as all those in between)

For starters: Who here knows the flood story? You know, the one in Greek mythology? Or Mesopotamian mythology? Or Roman? Jewish? Christian? Get my point? How is it that all of these myths (YES, myths.) are so similar at their core, but so varied in detail? You know, like MYTHS as the are infused in many different cultures? There are two (and ONLY two) possibilities: All never happened (Doesn't disprove God, just means that, well, the BIBle, Koran, Torah, etc. are MYTHS) or that everything is true (Which means we get to see Zeus in heaven =)) Just wanted to point that out.

Second: Any know about the numbers physicists found? Like the mass of an electron, mass of a proton, etc.? The numbers that, if changed SLIGHTLY (Even by .000...000... etc. 1) would mean a different universe? (or possibly none at all?) AGAin, two, and only two, options emerge: luck, probability, whatever you wwant to call it, or a divine hand. (Again, this doesn't prove GOd, just that something is there, a force, whatever)

Doesn't anyone realize that it's how you look at it? What your values are? There is no proof for God. There is nothing that proves He/She doesn't exist. It's how oyu look at it, and that's it. You never know till you die, and even then, you may never know. WHy fight wars, both with words and weapons, over this stuff? Why commit cromes "because he was against God?" Why bully people because they believe in a guy in the sky?

As you can probably tell, I am agnostic. I'm here for a little sanity. Although I think God is there, and that He started everything (created the laws) and let it go, and the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. are all MYTHS (Jesus was a real guy (historical roman records people, look it up), but you can't prove or disprove that he was the son of God, if God is there), that doesn't mean I am right. You must understand: I am here to tell you that with these things, these religous BELIEFS, it is about belief, not fact. We must speak in 'ifs', not yeses or nos. 'I think,' not 'it is true that...' Etc.

If god (in whatever form) is there, I doubt he wanted this many problems(otherwise He himself can go to hell... yeah, I said it, and I'm still here). And if he isn't, why the hell do we care? Why argue?

Sorry if I ranted too long. I just am here to preach sanity and tolerance.

Now to watch the video... =)

* edit for grammar... ignore any other mistakes. Sorry =)

Edited November 15, 2010 by gvg

[Izzy]

From what I've gathered, I think you're a little off topic..

[gvg]

It's just that this seemed like the best place to let loose, since i could see it was becoming a religious discussion. I had to say it somewhere. Sanity. Tolerance. I think we need to preach that a little more.

Sorry, I'll shut up now =)

[Guest]

WHy fight wars, both with words and weapons, over this stuff? Why commit cromes "because he was against God?" Why bully people because they believe in a guy in the sky?

Nobody's fighting wars or bullying anybody in this discussion, it's perfectly civilized IMO. On the other hand, there is no need to pussyfoot around the issue. Religion does a lot of harm, and it's ridiculous, and atheists today tend not to mince words about that. The tone has changed, the deference has gone. Many modern atheists, and to give due credit, Richard Dawkins in particular have raised awareness of the special treatment religion used to get in discourse, the free pass offered to beliefs which are religion-based. It doesn't always get a free pass any more and some people need time to adjust to that. Some call it bullying, others militant(!). It's just frank discussion, but without obligation to "show respect" for beliefs (ie. don't say how ridiculous they are) just because so many people cling to them.

Second: Any know about the numbers physicists found? Like the mass of an electron, mass of a proton, etc.? The numbers that, if changed SLIGHTLY (Even by .000...000... etc. 1) would mean a different universe? (or possibly none at all?) AGAin, two, and only two, options emerge: luck, probability, whatever you wwant to call it, or a divine hand. (Again, this doesn't prove GOd, just that something is there, a force, whatever)

I feel I must respond to this because it's a false dilemma, and a common one at that.

Let's put it in more graspable terms and consider the plot of a typical hollywood movie, in which the protagonist faces apparently overwhelming odds and yet somehow manages to triumph regardless. If a similar thing were to happen in real life, you might conclude one of two things:

1) The outcome was improbable. The smart money would have been on the protagonist to fail, yet they succeeded. This is due to nothing but dumb luck. Once in a while, unlikely things do occur, and that's what happened here.

2) The odds were not stacked as they seemed to be. There was a hidden force at play, an ace in the hole. Maybe the protagonist is "guided by destiny" (whatever that means), or has God on their side.

Regarding the convenient configuration of our universe it is tempting to consider it as a similar dilemma, and the apparent unlikeliness of (1) pushes us to think (2) is the answer. For now let's stick with the movie analogy. In movies, the second explanation is often the correct one. Instead of having God on their side, there's a script writer shaping the characters' destiny. But what if the script writer didn't invent the story? What if it were closely based on real-life events in which someone overcame the odds? The "dumb luck" explanation comes into play, but it's not satisfactory. More to the point, we should consider why this particular narrative was chosen for a hollywood movie. Why not make a movie about the last six months of my life, or the next year of yours? Answer: It probably wouldn't be a very good movie. In order to make a fun movie, something surprising and inspiring has to happen. A person has to beat the odds in order to make an interesting story, so on the few occasions where this does occur, a movie might result, and on the many occasions where it doesn't (let's say you take on overwhelming odds and, predictably, fail), no movie will be made about that because it wasn't a good story. In other words, a process of selection has occurred.

So we can divide explanation (1) into:

1a) An improbable outcome occurred. There is no explanation other than noting the fact that unlikely things do happen sometimes.

1b) Out of many events which have occurred, one of the more improbable ones was selected for attention because it had interesting consequences.

Obviously 1b is a much more satisfactory explanation. But can we apply it to physics? It depends on this: How many variations of physics exist? There's a tricky question, especially when you start thinking about what the word "exist" means, but for purposes of this discussion let's just say we have no reason to assume the answer is "one". Of course there is only one instance of physics which is observable to us, but since it is a complete system with our minds and perceptions embedded in it, that's hardly surprising, and in no way implies that it's the only one. Subjectively, it is "selected" because it has self-aware observers (us) embedded in it, but to assume that it is also selected in some wider objective sense (selected to be the only thing that exists, for instance) is without basis. Removing that assumption, you simplify your model of reality. I won't go any deeper into that now, except to note that this line of thinking leads to the conclusion that our finely-tuned universe appears to be not unlikely or lucky, but rather inevitable.

[gvg]

I think I understand what you mean. And you're right, that is a good way to split option 1.

Truthfully, I think that there is more than one universe (did you hear about multiverse theaory? In which the big bang is two or more universes crashing together and redistributing their energy throughout every billion years? Very interesting, i saw it on the history channel.)

Nobody's fighting wars or bullying anybody in this discussion, it's perfectly civilized IMO. On the other hand, there is no need to pussyfoot around the issue. Religion does a lot of harm, and it's ridiculous, and atheists today tend not to mince words about that. The tone has changed, the deference has gone. Many modern atheists, and to give due credit, Richard Dawkins in particular have raised awareness of the special treatment religion used to get in discourse, the free pass offered to beliefs which are religion-based. It doesn't always get a free pass any more and some people need time to adjust to that. Some call it bullying, others militant(!). It's just frank discussion, but without obligation to "show respect" for beliefs (ie. don't say how ridiculous they are) just because so many people cling to them.

I didn't mean here; this is a very civilized discussion. I'm talking about elsehwere throughout the world.

I'll try to add something that is (hopefully) more on topic next time, once i hget a chance to watch the video. Sorry about that, I just needed to write this somewhere.

[Guest]

... and that same God loving you no matter what happens in life, is so much better.

What is the basis for this statement? Looking at all the suffering in the world, the logical conclusion would be that god, if he or she exists, is anything but loving.

@Izzy: May be catholic church is also evolving

[Guest]

What is the basis for this statement? Looking at all the suffering in the world, the logical conclusion would be that god, if he or she exists, is anything but loving.

I know that's what a lot of people say. But I believe that God just hasn't gotten rid of suffering yet. It doesn't mean he can't, doesn't mean he won't. He hasn't done it YET. Just don't ask me when. He has his plan.

How do I know that God loves me and you and everyone on this world? He was willing to give up his only Son incarnate in man to die, taking the blame for all of humanity's wrongdoings.

If the Son was God's only one, how are we all children of Him? In biblical genealogies, the line is traced back to Adam, named the son of God. He wasn't THE Son, he was the one God created. God didn't create Christ, they always were. But God created Adam, and we all descended from him.

How do I know I can trust the Bible when it says this? It's being proved actively. Records are found of Joseph in Egypt, there are signs of human catastrophes scattered in the Middle East: balls of sulfur and layers of ash near the Dead Sea, where Sodom and Gomorrah were, evidence of thousands of burial mounds where the Israelites worshiped the golden calf and were later punished for it, to name a couple. These events were recorded by the Bible before the archaeological evidence was discovered.

@octopuppy: We all have our talents. I like to play the guitar, write, sketch pictures, that kind of stuff. I'm creative, and am told to be pretty good at it. This talent didn't come by mere chance. There's a reason I can write and play and draw, it's a gift from God, and He wants to accomplish something through it. I don't know all the answers of what I'm specifically supposed to do, but I am actively learning. He has this plan for all of us, and they all can play a part in the grand scheme of things.

How the creativity may apply to getting rid of suffering, I don't know...then again, everyone loves a good song, right?

EDIT: grammar goof

Edited November 16, 2010 by LJayden

[Izzy]

(*apologizes for post quality in advance. I r sleepez.)

Are we talking about the same God here? Humanity's wrongdoings, from the Biblical perspective, trace back to original sin when the chick ate the apple of knowledge. Painful child birth was the punishment. Last I heard, that's still hella painful.

You're really giving a fairy credit for seeing past, present, and future, KNOWING Eve would mess up, incarnating himself in human form, letting himself "die", and then coming back to life, only so Jews could be prosecuted for the centuries to follow? And, credit for, well, essentially this? :

Mhmm. England also exists, ergo Hogwarts. Space exists and we can't find Alderan. Must have been the death star. The Bible was, in it's time, an accountance of the world as people understood it. The places and people may be real, but most of the events depicted therein are certainly not. The Bible also says the Earth is flat and the center of the universe no older than 6,000 years. The Qur'an, btw, depicts the same events. Why Jesus?

*edit* Oh. Troy. The Illiad. Then found. Somehow doubt you believe in Zeus. History works like that. People live somewhere. They write about it. Then we dig it up. That doesn't mean their religious beliefs were accurate in any way whatsoever. Buried Aztec temples? Somehow doubting you condone human sacrifice.

@LJ: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei

God gave some people AIDS, made some people blind, made others homosexual and lots *gasp* atheist. "But Izzy, people are genetically predisposed to those things!" Why would other traits behave differently and transcend known law? Creativity included.

*sleeps*

Edited November 16, 2010 by Izzy

[Guest]

@LJ: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo Galilei

Agreed, sorry if it came across as the contrary.

[Guest]

@octopuppy: We all have our talents. I like to play the guitar, write, sketch pictures, that kind of stuff. I'm creative, and am told to be pretty good at it. This talent didn't come by mere chance. There's a reason I can write and play and draw, it's a gift from God, and He wants to accomplish something through it. I don't know all the answers of what I'm specifically supposed to do, but I am actively learning. He has this plan for all of us, and they all can play a part in the grand scheme of things.

How the creativity may apply to getting rid of suffering, I don't know...then again, everyone loves a good song, right?

The grand scheme of things is what I'm getting at. Let's suppose that God has put you here to play the guitar, to ease suffering or inspire people or something like that. God put someone else here to be a doctor, someone else to build roads, and so on. Like ants in an anthill, all assigned different tasks for the good of the whole. But from a god's-eye point of view, the question arises: what is the purpose of an anthill? Similarly, what is the purpose of humankind? We swarm and multiply on the surface of a planet which is utterly insignificant in the vastness of space. To what end? Collectively, we are good at colonization, using up resources, polluting, and innovation, which may be our saving grace. In order for there to be a purpose, the sum total of our efforts must amount to something which God wants. What could it be? If we don't know, isn't that because there is no sign of such a purpose, so no reason to think there is one?

My opinion:

The purpose of an anthill is to make more ants. The purpose of human beings always was to make more human beings. Or more accurately, the purpose of human beings was to make more copies of the genes which make human beings what they are. These purposes are abundantly evident, but not god-given. Genes have no intelligence and therefore no plan to which they are working. They work to make more copies of themselves because the genes which do that are the ones which thrive, naturally. In the couse of this, human beings have acquired enough intelligence to be able to assign themselves a purpose of their own choosing. For probably the first time since life began on this planet, a lifeform is in a position to intentionally usurp its original purpose of the endless propagation of its genes. But we lack a collective purpose and to have one we would have to agree on it globally, and I can't see that happening any time soon. I doubt it will ever happen, after all, why should we want to assign our species an arbitrary purpose? Human diversity is IMO a good thing, and that includes diversity of purpose. Some people are working for fame, some possessions, some a quiet life, some to have lots of grandchildren, some immortality, some to help others, some to advance humankind in some way, some for the quality of our world, some just to survive. As long as it doesn't do too much harm, it's all good.