Evidence of God's Design

[Guest]

When I finally got the correct link up there are other links on that page that deal with just those types of questions.

[Quag]

Evidence is a funny thing, like biologists who say "this is 4.7 billion years old based on what we think to be evidence" or because this outcrop of rocks is shaped like this it proves that" I get that it can go both ways. I do think however that God is smart enough to know things like this would take place, and if there was absolute proof we would not need any faith. Faith is very important to God. Look if you ever need prayer for anything I got the hook-up, I know God!

Hambone do you have a particular beef with biology? did biology run off with your best friend and break your heart or something? lol just trying to add a little humor nothing personal meant.

I think you mean geologists not biologists dating the earth at 4.7 billion (wiki says 4.5B)though many of the sciences overlap the dating of the age of the earth is in the realm of geology. The age however is freely admitted to be an estimate not a precise time. Again science accepts that it can and should be able to modified as new and better data, comprehension of the processus involved come into play.

i liked the first link it was more fun (i like colourful sites) as to the 2nd heres some opposition

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/rate-ri.htm

http://gondwanaresearch.com/rate.htm

[Quag]

I was wondering when the foold was gonna come into this. Again ill give a plausible explanation of the flood. All major civilizations grew up in flood plains of great rivers. Every single one of them would naturally experience a flood at some point (probably several). there are some civilizations that didnt grow up on flood plains (few and no where near as big as those that did) those civilizations do not have flood stories, for the simple reason that they didnt have floods.

[EDM]

ok....i know that you all are having tons of fun with this topic......but it's starting to get annoying......

Some believe that God exists, some don't. So what??? We are here on earth for a reason; everything we do is for a reason.........so stop this dumb topic and move on!!!!

Try saving the earth and nature and humanity instead.... :P XP

[Quag]

Agree with last 2 lines EDM

[Guest]

E your awesome and I know that you believe in God. There are some people here that will never believe that He exists no matter what anyone says. Man cannot convince anyone of God's existence, the Holy Spirit does that. In the Bible, God says "Be therefore holy as I AM holy" In Hebrew the word translated holy is the word qadowsh (kaka'doshe) from the root word qadash which means 'to be set apart, sanctified, be separate'. I worship the One True God, He is not like other god's at all. He is Holy, by separating myself from the beliefs of worldly men and their evidence that they manipulate to dis-prove God any way that they can, and continue to stand on the Word of God as Truth, should not surprise anyone that does believe that there will be attacks and criticism and even hatred from those that don't believe. Jesus said "If you love the world they will love you, If you love me they will hate you, but they hated Me first"

[gvg]

This is for Izzy: My personal reason is a discovery by scientists that supports a God. They have found that if any universal number (strength of gravity, size/speed of electrons, etc.) were changed by .000000000000........1, there would be a completely different universe. This is either EXTREME luck or the work of a creator. I hate chance, and hate to think that things this big are the result of chance, and plus this chance is so slim that it's almost impossible to imagine. I say creator. This creator, to me, was either always there or appeared right before the big bang. He then created everything through the big bang and the laws of science, etc. etc. That's what I think.

[Izzy]

The world is the way it is because of the conditions we have. Had there have been different conditions, all that means is that everything would have been different. Yes, it is by extreme luck that we're here, but you have to realize that evolution and the world aren't geared toward us, and it really just is a happen chance. It's highly probabilistic that something would have been different, and then there'd be some other species here or elsewhere nothing like us asking the same questions. THAT species isn't here right now, they didn't get the .000000....1 that they needed. We did. It's less magical if some sky fairy did it.

We can explain almost exactly how we got here post-Big Bang, and pre-Big Bang theories are coming along nicely. They work without a creator, so I don't see the need to invent something superfluous. There's nothing to suggest he's here, and we can get exactly where we are without him.

Think about it with a card pack. A standard deck of cards has 52 cards. That means if I shuffle them and then lay them down on the table in a certain order, there's a 1:52! (1: 8.06581752 × 10^67) chance they landed the way they did. If I add in more cards, the chances decrease. But the point is that they get into an order whatsoever, not a specific order. People just assume God had to make the cards fall a certain way (so to say) so that we'd be here, but that's far from the case. They fell, we're here.

[gvg]

I dunno. I just think that chance wouldn't have played such a vital role, and would hate to think that it did. There had to have been something to start up everything.

Also, ever heard of the miracle at Fatima? It's well documented and not considered a hoax. In fact, there are many such miracles.

That's one of the things I noticed: atheists are more OK with chance occurrences. I hate it. I don't like it, and can't except that such an orderly thing is an accident. To me, there's God the manufacturer and scientist. He started the Big Bang and let loose the laws of physics. He is indirectly the creator by starting evolution and letting it take it's course.

I'm trying to develop something. I'm calling it 'sphereistic theism.' I'll let you know about it when I'm done, but it has to do with sphere of influence kind of things...

Edited August 15, 2010 by gvg

[Izzy]

So you prefer everything happening to be perfectly coordinated, meaning your entire life is predetermined, including your death, natural disasters, etc.?

I'll check out Fatima later.

There's this chart I cba to find, but after the big bang, there was a certain amount of entropy in the universe, and this entropy has always been increasing. But as time goes on, the room for order in the universes increases faster then the entropy, so we gain the appearance of being orderly. We are more ordered than we were at the beginning, but still wholly chaotic. Actually.. lemme find it. Here:

You do realize that even if God created the Big Bang and then sort of went away afterwards allowing evolution to take its course, there's still less than .00000000...1 of a chance that if repeated, we would still be here? The chances are just as unlikely as the entire universe just coming into existence, yet it happened. You realize that, right?

*edit* Checked out Fatima. Have you ever stared at the sun?

"Professor Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven, has stated that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the colour changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[25] Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where exactly the same optical effects as at Fatima were witnessed by more than 10,000 people.[25] Meessen also cites a British Journal of Ophthalmology article that discusses some modern examples of Sun Miracles[26]

Nickell also suggests that the dancing effects witnessed at Fatima may have been due to optical effects resulting from temporary retinal distortion caused by staring at such an intense light.[23]"

Edited August 15, 2010 by Izzy

[gvg]

I do. And I don't mean that I believe everything is predetermined there is still chance (ugh) involved. I just think that God was a sorta libertarian paternalist: he pushed things towards where he wanted, but let them take their course. To me, physics is the language is God (if you saw that thread I made you already know what I'm saying). Basically, God's a gambler of sorts, but gives help if asked... again, I'm figuring out this sphere thing. I'm trying to make it fit together. I think that it's possible that science is just a sort of... tool of God, what he uses (or used) to run the place. Instead of clashing, religion and science fit together. At one point I thought it impossible, that I would have to pick a side, but if what I'm creating works, (everything can be explained by spheres... again, it's in the works (and I don't mean made up of spheres)) it isn't impossible.

However, if science overwhelmingly proves that there's no God, then there's the evidence for atheists, and I go Jedi =) 'til then, I'll work on this idea.

edit: Yes. It hurts =)

OK, one miracle explained by science. There are others that I've heard about and that are well documented.

BTW, I recommend reading "Good Book." It's the writings of a jewish guy that actually reads the torah (that's the Jewish one, right?) cover to cover. Through that book, I've made some shocking discoveries that make me glad that as a Christian, I can fall back on the gospel.

Edited August 15, 2010 by gvg

[Izzy]

Hit me up with your miracles. I'm telling you, there's always an explanation.

It's not overwhelming proof, because it's impossible to disprove a negative, but if you're really interested and really want answers, read God: The Failed Hypothesis.

[gvg]

I saw that in the same section, and might get it.

[unreality]

gvg it's ironic that for years i've worried about the exact opposite. That there was no chance at all. That the universe was a matrix of mathematical positions manipulated by a set of physical laws operating on a linear time scale. No chance no chaos no randomness no possibilities.

I'm not denying the beauty of that type of system, leading to the complexity it did, but in my opinion that's really impossible. Since reading more about chaos theory, nondeterminism, quantum theory, superpositions, etc, it gave me hope that amid the chaotic dance of particles a beautiful self-propagating self-referencing system can emerge, a paradoxical loop between the fixed nature and the chaotic nature of the universe... something that can seek to understand itself...

[edit ... typo]

Edited August 15, 2010 by unreality

[gvg]

...And I think that some being is behind that.

[gvg]

I'll expand on this later, if you care. I don't have time at the moment.

[gvg]

OK:

Everything is connected in a way, much like the connection between space-time. What one thing does affects others as well as itself. However, what it does isn't predetermined, nor is it COMPLETELY chance (although a little). There are many possibilities based on what that something does. YOU control what happens, not chance or some higher being; but based on what you do, others are affected. For example, say you're in a promotional race. The possibilities are that you get it quickly, a little slower, not at all, etc. Based on how hard you work and what you do, an outcome appears. Almost nothing is chance or luck, although some is, since you are affected by what others do as well.

God fits in in this way: He started everything up, and let it go from there. He knows all of the possibilities, and what something has to do for that possibility, but He doesn't know what that something will do. He just knows the outcome and what's required. If you ask for help, he may nudge you in a certain direction, through signs and the like, but he will allow you to choose. He is the ULTIMATE libertarian paternalist. That's it. Which is what my sphere thing is trying to explain, although I think lines would represent it better.

Any questions?

[Quag]

gvg, your point all comes back to the same thing. If you hate to think the universe and everything in it happened by chance, that god had to have created it, or started it up and pushed it in the direction he wanted, then what created god? This is my fundamental problem with ALL religions. They all claim that the universe couldn’t just be, that it had to have been created. They point out its complexity etc. and usually end their arguments with well it is obvious the only answer is it had to have been created by god. Well when you ask who created god they say god always just existed. Seems to me this is saying "something to complex for my mind to handle so ill just say it was a single entity, omniscient and omnipotent", easier to understand and wrap up into a simple package.

As to the miracles, there is not 1 single proven miracle to have happened in all of history.

As to your last post, I kinda agree with the first paragraph. The fact we are sentient and can make choices does make the universe neither 100% chance nor 100% predetermined. I think it is a leap to say that therefore god must have created it. Having said all that I must say that, believe it or not, I agree with you sorta IF there is a god I believe in a non interventionist type. I.e. started the universe and let it unfold.

[gvg]

Yeah, the creation of God is an issue. I came up with two possibilities: He appeared just before he started the big bang (kinda what the big bang was supposed to be originally (just happened)) or he was always there.

I lean towards the first one.

[unreality]

Yeah, the creation of God is an issue. I came up with two possibilities: He appeared just before he started the big bang (kinda what the big bang was supposed to be originally (just happened)) or he was always there.

I lean towards the first one.

This Argument from Complexity is one of the most basic fallacies in the history of religious debates. It goes something like this:

(step 1) *point out many complexities in the universe and biology, facts and examples that hard working scientists have thought of in the past, are studying now, and work on in the future, all with 100x the wonder and amazement that you have because they better understand the intricacies and TRUE complexities in the subject matter than someone reading an internet article*

(step 2) *without attempting to marvel at the mystery, order and chaos of the naturally unfolding universe, lump all of these complexities together and say that such things can only arise with the prerequisite that a superadvanced omnipotent omniscient omni-f*cking-everything deity creating all of this - a deity held to be infinitely complex even to the point of true uncomprehendability by mere humans - but not so "mere human" are the humans who have convinced themselves that this deity has created them in "His" image and holds them somehow more special over all the other species of animals, plants and other organisms on the planet*

(step 3) *when asked "well where did this deity come from?", provide one of two answers, or both: he came out of nowhere OR he always there*

Don't you see the fallacy??????????????

In terms of complexity, "God" is supposed to be infinitely complex. The most complex thing ever, un-comprehendable. At the very least, more complex than the universe he created, just by virtue of his infinite mind being able to imagine this cosmos. In other words, in terms of complexity:

GOD IS MORE COMPLEX THAN THE UNIVERSE

Do you see now? Do you see? Then you go on to say:

"DUE TO ITS COMPLEXITY, I CANNOT BRING MYSELF TO CONCLUDE THAT THE UNIVERSE EITHER CAME OUT OF NOWHERE OR WAS ALWAYS HERE"

Then you say:

"THUS GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE. AND GOD EITHER CAME OUT OF NOWHERE OR WAS ALWAYS HERE"

Do you see the fallacy yet? The only way to fix your fallacy, gvg, is to assert one of the following things:

(a) the universe could have came out of nowhere

(b) the universe could have always existed

© god is less complex than the universe

[gvg]

He's less complex. He started everything, he didn't sit around and create every intricate detail in seven days. He's a smart guy, enough to create the laws of physics and start a universe, but the universe, overtime, developed and is now more complex than the *indirect* creator.

Fallacy avoided. That was one of the problems I had with major religions as well. =)

Edited August 16, 2010 by gvg

[Quag]

gvg, your still saying the same thing though, if god always existed why couldnt the universe have aways existed? If god was created just before the big bang, then who created god? if no one needed to create him than why did the universe need someone to create it?

BTW when i mention the BIG BANG i am including the theory that the universe has had an unending series of big bangs as well (though for this thread it makes little difference whether there has been 1, serveral or infinite big bangs)

[unreality]

He's less complex. He started everything, he didn't sit around and create every intricate detail in seven days. He's a smart guy, enough to create the laws of physics and start a universe, but the universe, overtime, developed and is now more complex than the *indirect* creator.

Fallacy avoided. That was one of the problems I had with major religions as well. =)

Interesting. But, unfortunately for you, still fallen into the fallacy. Here's why:

* you say that the situation at the beginning of the universe was "simpler" than it is now. This is not true

* but even if it was true, this makes your god more complex than these initial conditions of the universe, yes? Seeing as he designed them and put them into place

* so if god is more complex than the initial conditions, why does there need to be a god to create the initial conditions?

Again, the fallacy returns

[gvg]

Well I'm not much of a physicist, so I don't know a whole lot about the early stuff, although as far as I know, it was just a thick soup of particles.

And wouldn't it make sense that something complex would make something simpler than itself? Would a bacteria create a robot? It was less complex, and grew in complexity.

[unreality]

Well I'm not much of a physicist, so I don't know a whole lot about the early stuff, although as far as I know, it was just a thick soup of particles.

I'm no physicist either but the state of matter in those first planck times of the universe was immersed in physical conditions that might not even be reproducible today. Just because it's a scaled down model of what we have today doesn't make it a simple thing. Read up on this stuff and tell me how simple the early universe was:

http://physics.uoregon.edu/~jimbrau/astr123/Notes/Chapter27.html

http://preposterousuniverse.com/writings/cosmologyprimer/early.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090217-st-cosmic-dawn.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang#Very_early_universe

And wouldn't it make sense that something complex would make something simpler than itself? Would a bacteria create a robot? It was less complex, and grew in complexity.

Good; so you agree that god is more complex than the universe he created. That's the fallacy