Evidence of God's Design

[Quag]

yes hambone i would like to hear as well. i already asked why you became christian and not follow another religion, so i assume this will explain it.

but for both unreality and hambone i dont think either of you can use what has been said here as evidence. Glad to hear there is an athiest here, more interesting.

finding wolf tracks in the snow is evidence that a wolf passed by and by extrapolation a wolf is in the area. so far all i have heard is evidence that the universe is increadibly complex. that unlike wolf tracks does not point in either direction (god/athiesm) it is more akin to saying look there is snow, wolf tracks could be found in this snow, therefore wolves are nearby. either way your both making a leap of faith.

Hambone, my dad plays in several bands, unfortunately i recieved my mothers musical abilities

[Guest]

Was dating a women at the time that I thought I was in love with. Things in life happen, and for whatever reason at the time she decided she was not interested in the relationship anymore. Most all of this had taken place in a few short months. Now don't get me wrong, material crap in life, believe me IT COMES AND GOES. I could give a rip. The women though (ironic her name is Venus) guys I kid you not, is that a trip or what? Anyway this one broke my heart. I know what a lot of you are thinking right now, Band-disbanded, Has to find new to place to live,Venus breaks heart, he is depressed and desperate. No not at all. I am telling you it was not until July 6th 1996 I was at a really big 4th of July celebration (you would guess because it was the 6th) was with some friends having a ball. Living in new house, life goes on everything is fine. Until------I see Venus, and she is with some other guy that I Know and [considered a friend.]

Look this is something that I had been through a few dozen times and put others through 5x that. It was those few months, combined and standing were I was with everything in my Life going on, you know what I thought------that little old lady, what she said when I was fishing. I went and sat down on a bench, it was in this really big park, ocean, volleyball, softball, playground for kid's. Anyway, [just that I can remember exactly the way it looked what people were wearing and everything] found this bench, sat down. Looked out over a really still cove or inlet, looked like glass. Remember feeling like--There has to be MORE-- I WAS ALONE, and when I say that, I mean no-one was with me. I did however start thinking about a lot that had gone on in the last couple months of my life, and of course seeing one of my friends with Venus, How do you say what I was thinking and feeling. Thought this would be type-able, I sat on that bench, and said, "God, if your God like people say you are, if you are real, then I need a new Heart, new Eye's, and new Ears, cause the ones I am using now are broken." That was it that was my prayer. Just at that moment a very large White Bird Floated down with at least a 6 foot wing span, and landed just out in front of that bench I was on. I am telling you the world behind me (all the laughter, kid's on the playground, softball games, screaming, you know what you would normally hear at a place like this) SILENCE, I MEAN TOTAL SILENCE, Everything in front of me looked as if it were in slow motion, It felt as if a giant feather, that's the only way to describe how it felt, landed on top of me. Something happened because the Peace I felt you can't put in words, I have never felt a peace like that before in my life. I have had a lot of reasons to suppose should give me a peace like that from things I have had on this Earth. Nothing compared to that feeling, I know God was showing me He is real.

Alright, by now your all probably laughing, though this is not the end of everything that happened. I have a 10:00a.m. appointment. I will pick this up later. If this is not what you want to here about, after reading this let me know. There is more, and not sure if you really care.

Edit: btw Quag, use this as evidence if it works, though it is almost a mini conversation with unreallity, kinda like a public PM.

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[Quag]

Actually hambone this is looking like the best reason youve given yet to believe in god. It is a personal one, i think that is the only way anyone can justify their belief/disbelief in god.

[Guest]

All the other planets could be close to a circle, THAT IS NOT THE POINT, man can't you guys read? The point was the farthest that the Earth gets from the sun compared to the closest. Those TWO DISTANCES ARE ALMOST THE SAME! Did you get the point that time. A circular orbit is NOT the point. If Mars has a circular orbit around the sun and the closest it gets is 10 feet away from the Suns surface, and the most distant point is 60 feet away, well that's a Big difference. The circle is not the point! Okay make it easy for you The Sun is in the center of the circle, and the Earth goes around it, and all 360 degrees of its journey it (being the Earth) is pretty stinkin equal. Get it that time?

Yes, I can read, and actually, the circle is the point. I'm afraid I have neither the time, the patience, nor the desire to explain orbital mechanics to you, but if you cared to inform yourself, you would know that it is impossible for an object to be in a circular orbit and not remain at a constant distance from the object it is orbiting, and that there is absolutely nothing special about Earth's perihelion and aphelion. Whoever told you this nonsense is either completely ignorant, or a bald-faced liar.

[Guest]

Actually mevuc if you read my original post way way back when it is pretty much the same as yours. to paraphrase myself we have no proof that god exists or doesnt exist. all the evidence anyone has presented here could be just as well used by either side of the arguement. Where hambone and i fall out is when he gets his science wrong, or states his beliefs as facts. ie the proof of jesus being god.

Ah, cool beans! Yeah... I didn't read everything. Honestly, I've read it all before, said it all before, had all of these conversations before. Not sure why I keep reading things like this. I guess they just make me chuckle inside a little. I used to be a lot like Hambone, these days I'm more ambivalent towards it all. The polotics of the church got to me and I've never viewed religion in quite the same light. I guess it just gets hard to be interested when you've heard it all.

[unreality]

hambone that story was what I think we were all waiting for. The garbage you posted earlier, "facts" and "proofs" were not why you believed in god, we've heard them all a thousand times and debunked them ten thousand times. But the story you just posted was fresh Thank you.

Now I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, how you felt, whether your emotional hard spot was throwing you a bone, whether a god or god(s) were making its/their presence to you, etc, but I respect your memory of the incident

[andromeda]

I totally agree with Quag and unreality!

Something profound had happened to you that you interpreted the way you did, and that made you believe in God. This I respect, all the other gibberish, the so called "evidence" you provided is nothing but a big pile of non-recyclable gibberish, meaning you can't extract any useful materials out of it.

As for evolution, leave it to the professionals, would ya'

[Guest]

Yes, I can read, and actually, the circle is the point. I'm afraid I have neither the time, the patience, nor the desire to explain orbital mechanics to you, but if you cared to inform yourself, you would know that it is impossible for an object to be in a circular orbit and not remain at a constant distance from the object it is orbiting, and that there is absolutely nothing special about Earth's perihelion and aphelion. Whoever told you this nonsense is either completely ignorant, or a bald-faced liar.

I WANT EVERYONE TO SEE THIS SITE: www.universetoday.com ,search: mars distance from sun, Easy. d3k3 has pretty much stated he has no patience or time to explain how stupid I am. I have to explain this to him like I do my 4 year old, because she understands. d3k3 wants to look as if his big words and bold statements make him look highly intelligent, and being brainden I understand. You however just helped yourself to look like a 2nd grader. The earth stays a safe distance from the Sun to support life. Not too close, not too far. Safe. The perihelion and aphelion are very very close to 93 million miles. LOOK AT ABOVE SITE: It is from universe today. But hey what the heck do they know.

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[Guest]

How Far is Mars from the Sun?

Written by Fraser Cain

Like the rest of the planets in the Solar System, Mars travels an elliptical orbit around the Sun. This means that it has a closest point to the Sun in its orbit as well as a distant point.

When an object reaches the closest point in its orbit, astronomers call this "perihelion". The perihelion for Mars is 207 million km, or 1.38 astronomical units (1 AU is the average distance from the Earth to the Sun).

The most distant point on an orbit is called aphelion. The aphelion for Mars is 249 million km, or 1.67 AU.

The average distance from Mars to the Sun is 228 million km, or 1.52 AU. Astronomers call this the semi-major axis.

Mars actually has the second most eccentric orbit of all the planets in the Solar System, right after crazy Mercury. The wide ranging distances have a significant impact on its seasons. When Mars is at perihelion, its southern hemisphere is tilted towards the Sun, and can heat up much more than when its northern hemisphere is experiencing summer.

The dust storms that can rage across the entire planet usually get going when Mars is approaching its closest point to the Sun.

Here's an article that gives the distance from all the planets to the Sun. And no, Mars isn't getting so close that it will look as big as the Moon in the sky.

Astronomy for beginners teaches you how to calculate the distance to Mars. And here's more information about the distance to Mars.

Finally, if you'd like to learn more about Mars in general, we have done several podcast episodes about the Red Planet at Astronomy Cast. Episode 52: Mars, and Episode 91: The Search for Water on Mars.

Make it easy for everyone: here is what it says but the pictures on the site are awesome.

[Guest]

Yes, I can read, and actually, the circle is the point. I'm afraid I have neither the time, the patience, nor the desire to explain orbital mechanics to you, but if you cared to inform yourself, you would know that it is impossible for an object to be in a circular orbit and not remain at a constant distance from the object it is orbiting, and that there is absolutely nothing special about Earth's perihelion and aphelion. Whoever told you this nonsense is either completely ignorant, or a bald-faced liar.

Mars gets almost 50 million km closer to the sun than the furthest point. d3k3, I certainly agree with your statement above. -------------NOT----------------

[Guest]

I admittedly don't have the facts in front of me to back it up (something that everyone is harping on right now ), but something that I think is lacking from that site about Mars is the fact that being smaller and less dense than the Earth, it has a thinner atmosphere. The atmosphere also plays a role in how well the planet can regulate temperature throughout it's journey around the Sun. If it were as large and dense as the Earth, it would probably have a thicker atmosphere and temperatures would be more consistent throughout the seasons. Scientists are still looking, but they have seen evidence of things that point to the existence of moving water on Mars in the past and maybe even microbial life at one point, when the conditions on the planet were different millions of years ago.

Also, dk3k said a circular orbit, where the foci are both at the center of the ellipse. In that case, the distance is always the same guaranteed. Mars' orbit is not circular, so his statement was not describing Mars.

[Quag]

sigh after a brief period of nicety back to the nastiness.

Hambone you claimed to be upset about people who have 1st year physics arguing with you. let me explain why i at least attack many of your statements on the science. Simple book called the republic by a guy named Plato. total garbage book by the way for what it says, but very interesting on how it says it. I have no doubt in a face to face debate plato would crush me. thing is, he keeps putting up false premises then uses them to prove his points. all the antangoists argue upon his terms and ignore the fact that the basic premise is wrong. to avoid going there i call you on bad science. D3K3 was talking about circular orbits, you then talk of mars and its eccentirc orbit than use its eccentric orbit as proof of why d3k3 comments on circular orbits dont make sense. ill let ya mull that one over im sure itll come to you. not trying to defend d3k3 here thats his business.

got more but gotta go my daughter wants to play a game

[Guest]

sigh after a brief period of nicety back to the nastiness.

Hambone you claimed to be upset about people who have 1st year physics arguing with you. let me explain why i at least attack many of your statements on the science. Simple book called the republic by a guy named Plato. total garbage book by the way for what it says, but very interesting on how it says it. I have no doubt in a face to face debate plato would crush me. thing is, he keeps putting up false premises then uses them to prove his points. all the antangoists argue upon his terms and ignore the fact that the basic premise is wrong. to avoid going there i call you on bad science. D3K3 was talking about circular orbits, you then talk of mars and its eccentirc orbit than use its eccentric orbit as proof of why d3k3 comments on circular orbits dont make sense. ill let ya mull that one over im sure itll come to you. not trying to defend d3k3 here thats his business.

got more but gotta go my daughter wants to play a game

My first post on this was how the Earth was unique in its orbit to sustain life and stay an equal distance. all planets obits are similar, the earths is just more unique. Did you look at the Web site? or read my original posts?

Edited July 15, 2010 by hambone

[unreality]

My first post on this was how the Earth was unique in its orbit to sustain life and stay an equal distance. all planets obits are similar, the earths is just more unique. Did you look at the Web site? or read my original posts?

did you not see my post explaining that the more Earth is unique the more it supports both me and you in our separate ways of interpretation. You even replied to it but you must not have read it:

[Guest]

Search [planets orbits] @ universe.com.

[Guest]

did you not see my post explaining that the more Earth is unique the more it supports both me and you in our separate ways of interpretation. You even replied to it but you must not have read it:

Yes, read that post, remember what I commented, great post. I read it twice. Am I not understanding what your trying to say? Or am I not saying what I'm trying to say correctly? Got the 1 in a bazillion reasoning.

[Guest]

sigh after a brief period of nicety back to the nastiness.

Hambone you claimed to be upset about people who have 1st year physics arguing with you. let me explain why i at least attack many of your statements on the science. Simple book called the republic by a guy named Plato. total garbage book by the way for what it says, but very interesting on how it says it. I have no doubt in a face to face debate plato would crush me. thing is, he keeps putting up false premises then uses them to prove his points. all the antangoists argue upon his terms and ignore the fact that the basic premise is wrong. to avoid going there i call you on bad science. D3K3 was talking about circular orbits, you then talk of mars and its eccentirc orbit than use its eccentric orbit as proof of why d3k3 comments on circular orbits dont make sense. ill let ya mull that one over im sure itll come to you. not trying to defend d3k3 here thats his business.

got more but gotta go my daughter wants to play a game

The Earth's orbit is eccentric too, according to universe.com

[Guest]

Mars gets almost 50 million km closer to the sun than the furthest point. d3k3, I certainly agree with your statement above. -------------NOT----------------

What about Venus then, genius? The effect of orbital eccentricity on the difference between apsidal distances is proportional to the orbit semi-major axis. The intensity of incident radiation is dependent on the absolute distance to the star, not on the difference between periapsis and apoapsis. The constancy (or variation) of radiation intensity is therefore a function of eccentricity alone. It is possible that you lack the intelligence to understand this concept, but I think it is far more likely that you are choosing only anectodal examples that appear, to the uneducated, to reinforce your position, and ignore those that refute it. Please do not insult my intelligence and my profession any further by spewing such deceit.

I'm really glad for you that you believe in God. I envy the comfort it must bring you. I do, however, regret your insistence on disseminating intentional disinformation. I also regret that you have degenerated to puerile personal attacks, which are offensive, irrelevant, and do nothing to reinforce your point of view. Frankly, I really don't care that you ignore the unquestionable proof that your statement is false. There is no hope for obstinance such as yours, but perhaps others who read this, will not lack the capacity for reason to be fooled by your lies.

[Guest]

I don't understand what the existence of life on only this planet is supposed to prove or disprove anyways.

Assuming fact A: God Created the Universe

Implying fact B: God can assign life or form planetary orbits however he wishes. Creating life on other planets or just creating life on one, forming distinct and specific planetary orbits or many generic and similar orbits; all of this would fall well within the abilities of a God who can create a universe. The existence of life on another planet does not disprove God any more than existance of life on only one planet proves God. This argument is altogether irrelevant.

[Guest]

What about Venus then, genius? The effect of orbital eccentricity on the difference between apsidal distances is proportional to the orbit semi-major axis. The intensity of incident radiation is dependent on the absolute distance to the star, not on the difference between periapsis and apoapsis. The constancy (or variation) of radiation intensity is therefore a function of eccentricity alone. It is possible that you lack the intelligence to understand this concept, but I think it is far more likely that you are choosing only anectodal examples that appear, to the uneducated, to reinforce your position, and ignore those that refute it. Please do not insult my intelligence and my profession any further by spewing such deceit.

I'm really glad for you that you believe in God. I envy the comfort it must bring you. I do, however, regret your insistence on disseminating intentional disinformation. I also regret that you have degenerated to puerile personal attacks, which are offensive, irrelevant, and do nothing to reinforce your point of view. Frankly, I really don't care that you ignore the unquestionable proof that your statement is false. There is no hope for obstinance such as yours, but perhaps others who read this, will not lack the capacity for reason to be fooled by your lies.

Oh that's right forgot about the Venusians, there is life on that planet, is that what your saying? Because my point is ironically, earth is a planet that stays a safe distance from the sun and supports all our life forms. I see this as evidence of a divine creator, you don't need to see it that way. But this is a thread called evidence of God's design. I see all of my points as being a design of a Intelligent creator. you see it as great odds.

[unreality]

I don't understand what the existence of life on only this planet is supposed to prove or disprove anyways.

Assuming fact A: God Created the Universe

Implying fact B: God can assign life or form planetary orbits however he wishes. Creating life on other planets or just creating life on one, forming distinct and specific planetary orbits or many generic and similar orbits; all of this would fall well within the abilities of a God who can create a universe. The existence of life on another planet does not disprove God any more than existance of life on only one planet proves God. This argument is altogether irrelevant.

exactly. That's what I've been trying to say. I've been trying to show that various arguments that have been used by both sides (mostly hambone) are irrelevant, prove nothing and be construed in two different ways. The first is looking at the amazing complexity of life; i've already shown how that's totally supported by two totally opposite sides. The second I debunked in this manner was with the whole orbits and physical constants and things - both sides use the same data and it fits perfectly.

The difference is that the atheistic/agnostic side leaves it open to interpretation and further knowledge/research/philosophy/thought whereas the 'god-did-it' approach attempts to close up the system.

Anyway my point was that all of the arguments hambone has been throwing out are theistically over-recycled garbage, seen here on Brainden again and again. The real root of why he believes was given a few posts ago with his personal story, the only fresh original thing with actual rational validity that he has ever posted on this topic. I feel that the topic has reached its apex and there's no point really in continuing. In other words I'm outta here

[Quag]

sigh

Hambone i guess you didnt understand my post, i wont bother trying to reexplain it, suffice to say apples and oranges. yes the thread is evidence of gods design. once again there is no evidence of his design or evidence against god. the very best anyone has done with all this is prove the universe is an increadible complex thing. your best argument has been your personal story. if you had led with that it would have been a much shorter debate. im pretty sure everyone would have the same opinions they have now but it would have been quicker to get to this point.

[Guest]

Oh that's right forgot about the Venusians, there is life on that planet, is that what your saying? Because my point is ironically, earth is a planet that stays a safe distance from the sun and supports all our life forms. I see this as evidence of a divine creator, you don't need to see it that way. But this is a thread called evidence of God's design. I see all of my points as being a design of a Intelligent creator. you see it as great odds.

OK, now you're just being flippant. You know full well what I'm talking about, but are deliberately quoting me out of context. If you go back a couple of pages, you can refresh your memory that your point was that Earth's orbit is circular, while the orbits of other planets are elliptical, which proves there is an intelligent creator:

How about the Earths circular orbit? Every one of the other planets in our solar system circles the Sun in an elliptical orbit, not in the virtually perfect circular orbit of 93 million miles that the Earth does, our solar system's sole exception. Coincidence I guess. If the Earth's orbit were elliptical, as are all of the other planets' orbits, such as Mars and Venus, then we would freeze for part of the year, as the Earth would move much further away form the Sun than it does now. Similarly, an elliptical orbit would cause a huge rise in temperature when that elliptical orbit would bring the Earth far too close to the Sun for the other part of the year. Our precise circular orbit at 93 million miles for the Sun provides a perfectly balanced temperature throughout the entire year.

Whether or not there is an intelligent creator, the information presented is unquestionably false and deliberately deceitful. I have wasted a considerable amount of time trying to explain this to you, but you have either tried to dance around it by sprinkling about anectodal "evidence" that serve only to reveal your complete ignorance, or by making a straw-man of my statements, ludicrously taking them out of context. The conclusion that an intelligent reader will reach from this exchange is that you lack the cojones to admit when you're wrong. Isn't pride one of your deadly sins?

[Guest]

I'm not sure what your problem is d3, and at this point I could care less. You still for some reason don't understand the comment on the orbits of the planets and how the Earth sustains Life while the others can't. That is the point. Circular or flipp'n rectangular. As far as sin is concerned I as sure you don't know anything about that either, you stated yourself that the Hebrew, Christian, and Muslim God are the same. No they are not, Allah is NOT even close to the same.

As far as sin, There is only one Unforgivable sin in the Bible, that is rejecting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Trampling His blood underfoot. You should know all about it.

[Guest]

sigh

Hambone i guess you didnt understand my post, i wont bother trying to reexplain it, suffice to say apples and oranges. yes the thread is evidence of gods design. once again there is no evidence of his design or evidence against god. the very best anyone has done with all this is prove the universe is an increadible complex thing. your best argument has been your personal story. if you had led with that it would have been a much shorter debate. im pretty sure everyone would have the same opinions they have now but it would have been quicker to get to this point.

I understand your point, you say the odds of all debated go both ways. To me they show Intelligent Design that's all.