unreality

Sorry octopuppy, I'm auctioning off the TV rights, you'll have to place a bid like everyone else Maybe I'll do a random raffle. You'll win the raffle in an infinite number of universes so there's nothing to lose by buying a ticket!

oh I know, believe me ("believe" lol )... I was merely saying that, for a theist who can't wrap their mind around things like astronomical odds, huge stretches of time, anthromorphic principle, etc (the things that contribute to the existence of life on Earth from the "primordial soup"), and wished to instead believe that life was planted there (either by a supernatural god or by an asteroid from another planet - panspermia - which just begs the question again but offsets it to another planet), that no matter HOW life as replicated molecules first arose, evolution would take it from there. I was just being happy that Romulus accepts & understands such principles and is rethinking parts of the faith (such as the literal accuracy of the bible) but keeping the science rational The same can't be said for many creationists however

I actually agree with Romulus here, Izzy. The Bible clearly isn't a historical account but rather a fable's aesop thing, it was written for shepherds and whatnot... they could comprehend a day much better than billions of years. And you could say that god designed the evolutionary process which LED to man. While I don't agree (at all) with the basic premise of believing in a god, I think Romulus is noble in his attempt to conciliate science with his faith. I'm just glad that he's revising his faith and not the science to do it (opposite of what many theists do to make them "compatible"). very wise skepticism So you think the big bang was planted by a god or some such? That sounds like a Deism/Christianity hybrid (I think if I were a theist I would be a deist)

I'm in

[more evangelism]Uberfaith is very customizable, andromeda... you can join a variety of denominations, or start your very own! Become part of the greatest religious community ever, and revel in the truth of the Essence today![/more evangelism]

yeah I was thinking it was starting to sound very Zen (especially the most recent parable I did, "Allegory on Purpose, Free Will and the Cyclical Nature of Life") yeah Temple or Rendezvous works for me (Rendezvous would have to be singular and plural), and I like the revised Core Truth edit: to keep consistency we may need to update your parable on the afterlife (the second listed story in the spoiler above your post), and maybe remove "life after life" references but instead hint how your life affects everyone else around you and future generations of the earth, forever, so that the way you live your life has a large positive (or negative) affect on the future of Humanity, Earth, the Universe and even the Essence

We'll add that one to the list here's one on free will (but covering other topics too as all of the parables have done) A wise monk of the Uberfaith, known only as Master to his disciples and Disciple to his masters, was walking along the top of the narrow Great Stone Quadrangle, a ruin said to be the site of Lord Barack's rave parties. He walked a continous route over the four walls, always going counterclockwise. An uberneophyte monk came up to the monk after watching his progress for nearly an hour. "Why do you walk forever in such a route?" the neophyte asked. "You get nowhere." "Because I can," the monk responded. "It is a form of meditation. I walk to celebrate the infinite, circular journey of Life, a journey which has no end or destination." "Wasn't it you who said to enjoy life? You're walking without purpose." "I am enjoying life," said the wise monk. "Everyone celebrates life in a different way. You must respect this facet of Nature. You say I am walking without purpose, but that argument goes to living life as well. The meaning is what we apply to it, not some external forced meaning. The journey is the destination." "But why do you enjoy life in this specific way?" the neophyte asked, still a little befuddled. "Because I choose to," the monk responded. "Choice?" the neophyte was bewildered. "Sorry dude but physics is pretty clear on that... particle motions are based on the previous state of the universe combined with randomness." The monk just smiled. "The manner of choice is mysterious. What is a choice? A decision based on input. Our brain makes millions of them per second." "Yes but it's determined by the pre-existing state, and randomness." "What else would you want it to be determined by?" the monk asked. The neophyte thought about it for a minute. "Would you have your decisions come about spontaneously and randomly, not connected at all to the previous state of things? The way your brain makes choices is tied intrinsically with the system that is you, therefore it can be said you are choosing." At that moment, the neophyte was enlightened. "What is it I have just experienced, Master?" he asked, awed by the awesome inexplicable power of the sensation. "It is the Essence. You are beginning to merge with its flow," the monk said with a slight grin. "The Essence is the real apex of choice. You will learn what that means at an undetermined point in the future." "I see the truth now, Master," the neophyte - no longer a neophyte - added. "It's so simple." An hour later, a novice monk entered the Quadrangle after a short biofeedback exercise. She looked around and saw two wise monks walking around the rim of the Quadrangle. Curious, she climbed the ancient stone steps and waited until they came around the bend to her. "Why do you walk forever in such a route?" the novice asked. "You get nowhere."

well it's quite a drive actually but I'm semi-near lol... been there a few times. It's actually a pretty cool place Anyway those facts are awesome, Diamond Princess Where did you find them?

i live right near Hell, Michigan

One of the hardest aspects of programming and learning a new programming language is getting off the ground. There are tons of different languages. Some would argue that x is better than y, etc. I say that JavaScript is one of the easiest to work with, since all you need is a text editor and an internet browser. But it helps to have knowledge of C first. The first languages I learned were HyperCard and BASIC, it sort of snowballed from there. But coincidentally, there is such a system here on BD. Check out "VNA" in the games section. There are three different versions up to this date. The language is an abstract, very limited low-level machine code meant to create warrior programs within an abstract "array" environment, so many of the actual features won't be transferrable to a higher-level language such as C++ or Java. But the most important part of programming is the mindset and the logical picture of the process... things which you can get for sure from VNA.

actually, I realized we can put all of the Truth into "barack parables", speaking about the following: * original arrival and instruction about Uberfaith * afterlife * moral & ethical recommendations, and the role of karma in the universe * heresy, paganism, holy wars * the path of Enlightenment here's what we have so far:

octopuppy has convinced me, and we should do away with the Paths. They're superfluous. Also do away with the pasta pantheon (we don't want to get sued by Venganza ;D) and replace it with the Essence There are no paths or deities but rather one single stream of "Essence" that runs through the universe like a tide of mystic power. So, combining everything that has been said so far... Uberfaith government - many memetic denominations with different variations but all adhering to the Truth (the core doctrine). They live, thrive and die depending on membership count. Every year 1-5 top dogs of each denomination meet in the Ubercouncil for discussion of the Truth. In order for the Truth to adapt to the times, it can be changed over time, but a change in the Truth requires an overwhelming majority (let's say 92% or more) The Most Holy Uberfaith Truth * parables about Lord Barack's journeys... from his arrival to various speeches on various topics, such as afterlife, free will, and the Essence * core moral and ethical recommendations (most of this stuff is up to the denominations though) * karma system * The Path to Enlightenment, the only path left of the old path idea (which is now heresy of course). It involves nonbelief in most of the Uberfaith along with study of the Zero, no higher beliefs, a series of mental apprenticeships and tests to merge oneself with the universe and attain True Uberenlightenment. Stress self-learning, openmindedness... treated sort of as a separate denomination in itself, as Plasmid said * support of science, education, and learning (but do NOT donate to those areas or muddle in them or other politics at all) * built-in holy war system. When one denomination violates the Truth, the others give it an ultimatum to either repent their affront to the Essence or be destroyed ~~ what about where people meet? I'd rather not call them "churches", "chapels", "shrines" (since we dropped the pantheon/god idea), "mosques", "cathedrals", etc. Maybe if we call them Temples (Temples of the Essence? Ubertemples?) or maybe something more secretive and modern like "Locations" or "Rendezvous"

I know that one of the issues with Mexicans entering the US is (well before swine flu) they were taking up some of the jobs that would have otherwise gone to Americans. Maybe that's the issue in the UK? I have no idea

lol, nice. Except we didn't kill off god. Have you never heard of the FSM? It's sort of a cult joke among atheists. I just took the FSM and gave Him and His Noodly Appendage a whole pantheon of Noodly Deities to fit with octopuppy's idea of polytheism on that note, I'm revising the Pasta Pantheon and the Paths: (the P3 ) ----- (#) Name (attributes new attributes) Patron Deity (ie, the Noodly Deity of the Great Pasta Council that supports this path ----- (0) Path to Enlightenment (study of the Zero. No higher beliefs. A series of mental apprenticeships and tests to merge oneself with the universe and attain True Uberenlightenment. Stress self-learning, openmindedness... treated sort of as a separate denomination in itself, as Plasmid said) The Flying Spaghetti Monster himself (1) Path of Knowledge (learn new things and always question. Scientist by heart if not by profession. Gain new wisdom both practical and abstract, and apply it to the world) Rigati (2) Path of Randomness (be spontaneous. Do random acts of kindness. Say "yes" to everything. Embrace the chaos in the universe. Also involves harnessing your inner demigod) Macaroni, which is the collective essence of everyone's "personal demigods" (3) Path for Humanity (work on problems facing our species, and attempt to further its collective intelligence and well-being, in harmony with other species and the Earth itself. Social sciences, psychology, a humanistic perspective and a kind heart are involved... make your contribution to furthering Humanity's own path with whatever means you have) Fettuccini (4) Path of the Uberkarma (balance, harmony and recipricocity are built into the universe - this is supported by physics. Antimatter+matter, action+reaction, negative+position, yin+yang... these build up from the particle level and retain their properties at macro-levels, thereby encouraging you to be good and good will come in return. The Path's scientific processes will investigate how it all works) Ravioli (5) Nature (the "green" path - save the environment, save the Earth. Respect other species, from humans to ants to trees to apes to fish to coral. Respect the Earth in its uberconscious-biomass-organism {such as Kepler and Gaian-philosophers believe} and help regulate its conditions to support amazing new life. Study evolution, biology, ecology, extrabiology, geology, meteorology, etc. Help the Earth and help your fellow residents on this pale blue dot. Include stipulations against extremism... Naturists still need to keep their priorities straight) Gnocchi (6) Pathius Essencius (study mathematics, and the core axioms at the basis of math, physics and science itself. Embrace the mathematical aspect of life and help uncover truths about chaos theory and fractals and other practical applications of complex math. Become involved with the philosophy behind mathematics. Are you a Platonic or a Subjectivist regarding math's appearance in natural phenomena? This path is pretty much for mathemiticians but anyone is welcome. This is a path that seems to be more of a "minor" path as opposed to the other paths, and should be taken along with another route to fulfilment) Mastaccioli (7) Path of the Mind (deals with deep philosophical concepts like the mind, psychology, dualism, holism, that kind of thing... has a sub-branching regarding computers, computer science, and artificial intelligence) Manicotti (8) another one? (9) another one? 10 in all would make the supreme deity (the FSM) for path #0 and the 9-strong Pasta Council for each of the other paths 1-9

the only reason the 4th d (time) would be different in its restrictions is because the temporal direction is linked to causality - events earlier along the "time axis" cause events (that is, the state of space) at later points along the time axis. The only way that time travel is possible paradox-free WITHOUT the branching universes that I was talking about in the above post (with branching universes, no paradox can possibly occur, no matter what you do) is if there is no such thing as causality... that is, if it only SEEMS like one event earlier in time causes another. If ALL events at ALL times are caused by some external timeless source or law of nature for whatever reason, then going back in time and "changing the past" wouldn't change anything because all events would be caused externally and it only appears to us that there's some sort of causality going on. I just thought of this right now so I don't know if it has any basis at all - I doubt it though. It seems unlikely yeah we're constantly going forward in time. You can change your "rate" of seconds per Earth second (lol) by going different speeds. (see the Time Dilation section here, or this cool interactive thingy)

octopuppy: I agree, ixnay on the afterlife, as I've always said. No way josé. We can't sell that bullsh*t IMO... it's what could differ us from "less advanced" religions (which we will heap into Paganism and Heresy for mild hostility and major hostility, respectively), that is, if we stress the value of life as Life itself, rather than life for the purpose of an infinite stretch afterwards Rather than having an infinite other-realm that reflects how we lived our life here, I like your idea, but we can make it less vague by fleshing out that your own life affects the entire future of this universe, forever, in significant ways. More significant on Earth than on other planets of course (speaking of that, what's our stance on aliens? I think we should have a special task force trained in converting aliens). We can still stress good living without the empty promise of afterlife about the god point, I say we go with the pantheon idea, like this: the Flying Spaghetti Monster, with His Noodly Appendage, created the Great Pasta Council of 9 Noodly Deities: Ravioli, Mastaccioli, Pene, etc. Each Deity has certain traits and characteristics that define it with certain things Building on that, each Deity is associated with a Path. The FSM Himself is associated with path 0, the Path to Enlightenment. We would have ten paths in total, each one identified by a single digit. Say if Fettuccini were associated with the third path, the Path for Humanity, it could've been Him (or Her, we should have 5 males and 5 females on the Great Pasta Council, stressing anti-sexism, a memetic advantage for drawing females, who make up the slight majority of the human population) that enlightened Lord Barack on the Uberquest. On your objection to the Paths, they are NOT associated with education. As I've already asserted, we should leave education, science, politics, and military out of the scope of the Uberfaith, but rather support various institutions (such as colleges, high schools, research institutes, peace councils, etc) with funding. The Paths are not education-related at all, they are merely open, loose methods of living one's life. People pick and choose (the avg person would probably draw mostly on 2-4 paths) and braid their own combination of the Paths to suit their lifestyle. They're sort of an entwined philosophical backbone supporting the core doctrine with more general focus. We definitely gotta keep the Paths going back to the god-loves-you part, we could say that the GPC (Great Pasta Council) does indeed love you, as they love EVERYTHING in the universe. But we should make it known that there are many other intelligences across the universe on various planets, and various higher levels of intelligence as well, whole galaxies making up minds, that the universe is a hard place to keep track of. Some of them might be scatter-brained and we'll say that it's our job to use our Inner Macaroni Daemon to draw upon the divine Saurce (a mix of Sauce and Source ;D) and reverse the entropy in the universe I also like the "karma account" idea... there should be a Karma Bank where you can make "deposits" and "collect interest"

when matter is going the speed of light, it becomes pure energy because matter just cant go the speed of light (that's my understanding of it anyways). So maybe energy can go back in time. Hell if I know I do know that the only paradox-free possibility of time travel is if a new universe branches off at the exact point that that the new matter/energy/whatever is arriving. So it's like this: ------a-----------------b--> let's say someone/something at point b goes back in time to point a the new timeline(s) look(s) like this: ------a-----------------b--> | ----------> the two universes have the same history until point a, that's when it branches off (in the top universe, it happens as it did, but in the bottom one, the someone/something suddenly arrives and it all starts changing from there) edit: also, going forward in time doesn't merit a new universe, it's just like disappearing and then reappearing later

this post by octopuppy, these posts by plasmid and this post by grayven are all pretty awesome I feel like Uberfaith is starting to get off the ground ;D how about there is a List of Paths, and certain denominations can pick and choose the paths they want to vouch, but everyone in all denominations is open to all paths (0) Path to Enlightenment (study of the Zero. No higher beliefs. A series of mental apprenticeships and tests to merge oneself with the universe and attain True Uberenlightenment) (1) Path of Knowledge (learn new things and always question. Scientist by heart if not by profession. Gain new wisdom both practical and abstract, and apply it to the world) (2) Path of Randomness (be spontaneous. Do random acts of kindness. Say "yes" to everything. Embrace the chaos in the universe) (3) Path for Humanity (work on problems facing our species, and attempt to further its collective intelligence and well-being, in harmony with other species and the Earth itself. Social sciences, psychology, a humanistic perspective and a kind heart are involved... make your contribution to furthering Humanity's own path with whatever means you have) (4) Path of the Uberkarma (balance, harmony and recipricocity are built into the universe - this is supported by physics. Antimatter+matter, action+reaction, negative+position, yin+yang... these build up from the particle level and retain their properties at macro-levels, thereby encouraging you to be good and good will come in return. The Path's scientific processes will investigate how it all works) (5) Nature (the "green" path - save the environment, save the Earth. Respect other species, from humans to ants to trees to apes to fish to coral. Respect the Earth in its uberconscious-biomass-organism {such as Kepler and Gaian-philosophers believe} and help regulate its conditions to support amazing new life. Study evolution, biology, ecology, extrabiology, geology, meteorology, etc. Help the Earth and help your fellow residents on this pale blue dot) (6) Pathius Essencius (study mathematics, and the core axioms at the basis of math, physics and science itself. Embrace the mathematical aspect of life and help uncover truths about chaos theory and fractals and other practical applications of complex math. Become involved with the philosophy behind mathematics. Are you a Platonic or a Subjectivist regarding math's appearance in natural phenomena? This path is pretty much for mathemiticians but anyone is welcome. This is a path that seems to be more of a "minor" path as opposed to the other paths, and should be taken along with another route to fulfilment) (7) Path of the Mind (deals with deep philosophical concepts like the mind, psychology, dualism, holism, that kind of thing... has a sub-branching regarding computers, computer science, and artificial intelligence) there could be more if deemed necessary

d3k3: I see what you mean. Rules before the big bang, even if the same "universe" may have been completely rescrambled, or something like that. And I see what you're saying about the universe... a 1d point can move forever on a finite line if it's curled in 2d space into a circle. A 2d shape can move forever on a finite plane if it's curled in 3d space into a sphere. And a 3d object, like us, can move forever in a finite space if it's curved in 4d hyperspace

d3k3: I agree that time exists within the universe, but I think the universe(s) has(have) always existed, and therefore time as well. That's just my personal inclination. But I really don't know, and neither does anyone The most likely scenario is that we're both wrong and the real truth isn't even comprehendable

regarding life, see my post over in the other topic. Or the link in my signature. It'd also be nice if you took the time to respond to some of our posts. Across a couple of topics, me and Izzy and ADP and kaw and some others have put together a series of excellent arguments, taking up a significant chunk of time, just for you and some of the other theists, and you do a very good job at ignoring them. Most of us were theists like you, but managed to break free. We want to help people like you but if you're unwilling, that's okay too. Whatever makes you happy is how you should live your life. Just don't lose sight of the big picture I know I said I was *out* of these topics a while ago but I keep getting drawn back... anyway in my couple of longer posts here and in the other topic, I think I've covered enough. There's no further arguing needed - all the truth is there if you choose to see it. I hope you do someday, but you're you, and I know next to nothing about you and anyone else here, so ciao and have a good life

see my signature. Specifically the "LIFE. HAS. MEANING." part and as kawsentrait put it, chance really doesn't play a role. that's not true. The majority of atheists I know in my personal life are much more well-rounded, intelligent, self-confident, self-accepting and respectful than their Christian counterparts. Maybe that's a non-statistical sample set, I don't know. But I do know that you're stepping over a line by insulting the integrity of atheists... who have made some of the world's greatest discoveries (and many of the greatest advances in morals too, btw - Hammurabi is often depicted as being given his Codes by the babylonian god "Shamash", but many scholars believe that Hammurabi was in fact an atheist... it's been a long time since I remembered hearing that, so don't quote me on that though). What's life without God, you say? A lot more than it is WITH god, actually. Life with God is just a tiny meaningless speck between two eternities. From my point of view, though, life is all there is, so it's time to live it. Carpe diem and all. I'm sick of people like you who think that the massive amount of time we have isn't long enough, you want more, you want eternity. Did you know that a chipmunk only lives for a couple of years? Some flies live for a day. Think back and realize how LONG a year truly is. We live for MANY years, and that number is extending with science and technology. Life is long, not short. Life is the eternal, not god. I don't expect you to understand that, it's hard for someone with a Christian mindset to truly appreciate life and not want more, like infinite orgasm in heaven (boring!). But like I said in the other thread, I sense an undercurrent of intelligence running in you that's straining to break free of your religious indoctrination. Let it soar a little bit, and appreciate life if only this were true No indeed - it is not true at all. Altruism is very important, and an awesome evolutionary advance, that allowed animals to "team up", as it were. A society offers protection, exchange of genes, trading of resources, etc. Why do you think it's so common across the Animal Kingdom? Schools of fish. Herds of zebra. Flocks of geese. Tribes of apes. Colonies of yeast. Societies of humans. Hell even the robots in I Robot sought out altrusim ;D It's laughable to think that morals belong only with humans. Many other apes have moral systems, as well as dolphins, elephants, and some species of birds.

andromeda: as Izzy said, this is about all aspects of religion and religious debates. The big bang comes up in these kinds of discussions Let me run a scenario through you... in a thousand years, let's say that "scientists" know 1000x more than they do now, and know all about the Big Bang and have empirical solutions to all of these meaning-based questions, discovering how it all works without gods and stuff - "scientists got smarter", as you put it, and religious folk are satisfied and the need for religion is gone. It is admitted that there never was a god in the first place but it was just a mechanism to help us cope with the world before we knew more and could "emerge from our shell". Now... let's think about this. Scientists "got smarter" (what a ridiculous phrase btw lol) and we know there is no higher power - probably inevitable sometime in the future as you yourself basically said. Does god(s) just blink out of existence then? Clearly, it/they would never have existed Your assertion in the above quote is pretty much valid, except for the red parts. My objection to "someone" is just phrasatory (is that a word?) as that not even an anthromorphisized god could be considered "someone". Now I'm not an expert on the Big Bang, so I'm pretty ignorant in the astrophysics field, but I know a few very distinguished astrophysicists at the University of Michigan, and I've heard them scoff at the mere idea of there not being a big bang. Their entire life's work is about this kind of stuff, you know? That should be enough for me to "take it on faith", but I still don't - I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of the big bang, even though I know a few of the things behind it. There are some knowledgeable physicists on here (cough ysan) that can help you I'm sure. Or ADParker probably. There's something about how nothingness is an unbalanced quantum state, things like that. But personally, no matter how you look at it, IMO the universe has always existed and always will. Maybe the Big Bang was a sort of transitory period, a gravitational scrunching and then re-expansion, a recycling of the universe so to speak. Either way, the "omniverse" of sorts has always and will always exist, it seems. We can only hope to understand the shadow on the wall of the cave, not the actual truth, because we are creatures bound within a system that we are trying to think externally about. But from our diminutive understanding, one thing is quite clear... SOMETHING had to exist forever/timelessly/etc. Most likely the universe. There COULD be a god that in turn created the universe, but then the god has to be existent forever/timelessly/etc. So how did the god get there if the god is infinitely more complex than the universe? You say the universe begs creation, well a superintelligent mind begs an even more spectacular creation. There's nothing that makes god different from the universe. Both can be considered timeless, omnipresent, alpha+omega, etc. Only your indoctrinated mind is what compels you to ambiguously say that god "can just be there" while the universe can't. Here's something that might blow your mind: the universe may exist simply because it's a logically consistent possibility - note that this theory holds only if logic is external & omniversal (no one knows, it's impossible to know). It's also only managable in our lowly minds when one accepts particle-level determinism&probabilism. In that case, the universe is just a "form" as Plato puts it, a construct, a sort of planar example. An absolute, objective system that appears (and disappears?) in the blink of an eye (so to speak, eyeblinks may only exist in this universe ) just because it CAN. There are no rules in chaos. An infinite of infinite of universes, vast majority, have constants or rules of internal logic that may not even support the chemical existence of helium, let alone higher particles like protons in the first place. A few awesome universes (like ours) can support higher up levels of particles, leading eventually to complex molecules. And probably a lot fewer very-awesome universes (like ours) can support self-replicating... SELF-CONSCIOUS (eventually) lifeforms. So it's pretty much awesome that our universe is so awesome Now it begs to differ - why is our universe fine-tuned for life? Well considering all the other universes, this one is one of the (few/only/some? not sure, we cannot know really) universes that can support life, therefore conscious life in that universe will ask that question. In a nutshell, the only universes in which the question "why is this universe good to life?" is asked can only possibly be the few universes that supported life. We're here talking about this BECAUSE our universe could support life. And it may be more likely than not that ALL universes can support some kind of life, since self-replicated, entropy-reducing things are very useful... and resilient, being able to adapt. Life may be very different in other universes of course, that's to be expected. So it could be that nearly all logically consistent possible universes have developed some kind of life. We don't know under what conditions/constants life can arise - we only know that it can only arise in OUR universe with the exact constants OUR universe has, but that's mixing up the cause-and-effect... life arises in our universe under those constants because that's what life had to work with. Life adapted to the constants, not the other way around. It may be that life can form under nearly all constants. Or some. Who the hell knows again... you jump to conclusions. This is the core of your argument: (1) scientists don't know everything about Subject X. [this may be true - it is for abiogenesis. However we've made a ton of progress in this area in the past 50 years. Recently I read an argument about new theories, new tests, new experiments, etc... don't expect the shroud about the origin of life to remain for long] then you jump to: (2) God was the one who caused Subject X. Do you see the problem here??? Let's say a phenomenon starts up. In the Gobi desert, a new mutated breed of cactuses start getting struck by GREEN lightning at an alarming rate. Scientists have only been working on it recently, and don't have conclusive results yet, though there are plenty of good hypotheses with some evidence. You can't just say "Something has to be causing this strange green lightning... therefore God is the one striking these mutated cacti because he doesn't like evolution!" not the best example in the world lol, but you get the point. Let me rephrase your quote: what's the difference? None! You can't just lump on a compeltely different phenomenon to something like that. You have nothing to back yourself up. Why can't it be Zeus? Why can't it be Baaldamned Odin for Ra's sake? going back the point. Sure you can say, if you want, for an issue like the big bang, that a god put the seed there or something and then stepped back. Like Deism. But further identifying that god with a preexisting god (such as Yahweh/Jesus/Yeshua/YWHW(whatever the name is) or Zeus or even Pelor from D&D) is going too far. Especially when there are other, much more viable, theories and explanations. If you went by the teachings of the bible, then you would already have your own predispositions for this (7 days, etc)... but I sense that you're smarter than that. Especially your comment about god planting the big bang, or "setting the conditons right". Well ask yourself this: why did god have to set the conditions right? The conditions were right before, obviously. If all life needs to start is some conditions (which I agree with ) then a god isn't needed to initiate them. What part does your god really play in this? I'm beginning to suspect you're actually more of a Deist than a Theist. Deists are much more sensible and realistic about things, IMO. It even allows for a quick divine injection when you need it. Basically Deism is "a god created the universe and then left it", so it's kind of similar to atheism in a way. Most people I know, even devoutly religious ones, lead an atheist lifestyle 90% of the time. In the end, when it comes down to it, we operate on our own level, here on Earth. This is our home. This is our life. This is your time to be an individual before we rejoin the infinite splendor of the universe. To Bran and others, I don't care what belief system you hold as long as you appreciate life and live life to the fullest... my Life Philosophy, in a way, is to not let any Life Philosophies (including this one) stop me from living my life. So yeah, go out, get off the computer and have some fun. That's what I'm going to do in ten seconds after clicking 'Add Reply' Cya ~ unreality, out ~