Quag

TARP(not the government bailout but the sheet you use to cover stuff)

Nope its not theft! your examples are unfit. You beefit directly and indirectly from roads. You deny this but you are be wrong. as always. no one is pointing a gun at your head. you can pretend that they are but they arent. you can move, you have admitted this, but then think that you are being robbed! Your house would not exist if it wasnt for the govt roads, your job wold not exist if it asnt for the roads. your arguement fails because you admit you could move but say I dont WANT to then say I am FORCED against my will to pay taxes. No you are not you can move but noooo like a baby you seem to think you have the right to live anywhere without any obligation. You claim the constitiion was not signed by you. Admittedly it wasnt. but it set the rules for the world you were born into. You not being a SLAVE can easily sidestep these rules but you dotn want to, you think you can take the world as it is and then avoid the obligations. I think if you actually read my posts you would see that I agree there are taxes that are odious and wrong, but you claim all taxes are theft. that is where your extremism prevents you from seeing reason. just because 1 tax can be wrong does not make all taxes wrong. As to Somalia, try looking at the actual data instead of the opinion peices, the country sucks royally. Yes govt that is actually working against its people can be worse than anarchy but a democracy at its very worst (extremely corrupt) is only as bad as an anarchy. Even Mexico which is very corrupt is better than Somalia. But being insane you will ignore that. I know you will never see reason as you are as brainwashed as the branch davidians you espoused earlier. But for the benefit of others TAXATION is not THEFT/VIOLENCE/SLAVERY

No you have not done anything of the sort. You have attempted to use flawed logic and inapropriate analogies that dont fit. Ignoring facts and logic that dont agree with your flawed premise. You even admit you could avoid paying taxes if you so choose, then turn around and say you are forced to pay them! You have never once made a really good point, that is the problem. You do ignore what others say then twist and rearrange and decide we had said something completely different or just ignore it compeltely and go off on a tangent that has nothing to do with anything anyone else has said.

It's not so much that I hate cats, it's Broadway shows I really despise!

Ive seen the light... then the flashlight batteries died

Why shouldnt you leave your house? was your house built in a municipality? The rules were in place when your built/bought your house, you knew that buying/building a house where it is means you have to pay taxes. Why do you think that you can change the rules becaue it suits you? This is part of the social contract people have been talking about. The living room example has nothing to do with it. If you move into my living room it would have to be by my consent and I would expect you to pay rent. Ie. You moving in, means you agree to the terms, just like you buying a house in a municipality means you agree to all that that implies, INCLUDING PAYING PROPERTY TAX. Again you bring up slavery why? How is it even remotely related to this discussion? you are not a slave, taxation is not violence/theft/slavery. You can move a slave cannot. You can change jobs a slave cannot. Stay in your house, move out, I dont care, but dont try and tell me you do not WANT to move and therefore taxes are THEFT/VIOELNCE/SLAVERY.

This thread is pointless, you will never admit that taxes arent theft/violence/slavery, even though this last quote, despite the fact you think you have to leave the USA is total BS, you admitted you can avoid taxes. Therefore they are not theft/violence/slavery.

Again UTF you claim to have "thouroghly" investigated Somalia, what a farce! Somalia sucks. It sucked under a dicatorship it sucked even more in civil war. There has been 0 nada nil no development of infrastructure in somalia since the fall of govt except what was done by so called "provisional" govts. Again I never claimed Somalia was great only that warlords now control various parts of it. It is what happens to anarchies, some form of govt usually steps in, that form is almost always a dictatorship of sorts. That is what exists now in somalia various groups controlling various areas. the civizal war has basically stopped, which has helped the people but that is about it. BTW All your posts are merely articles that look at some of the data but not all if you look at all the data you see some improvements in soem areas and some decreases in others. The big factor seems more to be is there actual war going on or not not is ther a govt or not. I claim your arguements are from FDR as because I can see 0 difference between what you say and whaty Molyneux says, you just seem to parrot him. I will ask you again why can you not move outside your municipality limits? It is the question I have asked over and over again please answer if you can. the only answer i seem to get is that well no you dont want to. DAWH I agree, however UTF is refusing to accept any facts. I disagree with gvg on the tax rate thing but at least we can agree on the facts we do have yet we come to different conclusions. UTF and I disagree on every single point. Which is actually rather strange as I am closer to him than gvg is.

My family is one big trashcan, we accept everything and everyone.

there is no man as rich as anon is with praise for his poem, yeah this a concession as well good job dude well written

GRAZED

Bah i go for Points CHAD if 0 than S is first E is 3rd as SHED =2 only change is s/e

A. Its not that I want a monopoly on roads it is that while you are living inside the municipal limits the municipality has a virtual monopoly on roads. You can leave if you want and have private roads if you want i dont care. But you seem to believe that despite the fact the municipality is there you shouldnt have to pay because it is a form of slavery. That is insane you can leave, like i have said umpteen times. Your bit about the private highway is as usual completely off the mark. If you HAVE to use the private highway to get to your home you have 2 choices pay up or move. It has nothing to do with being near your home, it has to do with having to use it to get to/construct your home. B. I am sorry i forgot i was dealing with an ideologue. Ok govt monopolies (we are talking democracies here) are there to provide a service to all. Private monoplies are there to make as much $$ as possible. There is a huge difference but you being ideologically blind cannot and will not see the difference. One is there to help all, the other is there to take all. past monoplies that govts tried to break up for the benefit of all. 1. microsoft, internet explorer specifically 2. rockafeller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller please note the underselling to kill competition bit. 3. the vend (a collusion type of monopoly) 4. Brisitsh east india company 5. dutch east india company 6. western union 7. United aircaft and transport corporation. however your statement on them forcing you to buy their products leads me to believe that you have no clue what a monoply actually is. A monoply doesnt force you to do anything they just reduce the choices to buy from them or dont buy. C.Hmm Somalia again Ok lets go there. First I never said somalia was a paradise when it was governed. Dictatorships are never a good form of govt even "benevolent" dictatorships. However since you think it has gotten so great since then. let me ask you where you got this information? I can only guess from FDR as all your arguements come from there. However it doesnt take much to get some actual info on somalia as opposed to propoganda from FDR http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107979.html?pageno=4 http://www.indexmundi.com/somalia/gdp_per_capita_(ppp).html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html Please not that the per capita income hasnt really changed, that somalis though not the very bottom is darn close to it on all the charts. So how is your Somalia doing? Stop reding FDR and look for actual facts before you spout off on things you know nothing about if i dont know something I will inform myself and I will look at all the information I can find, not just look at sites that are ideologically aligned with me. I suggest you do the same it might open your eyes a little bit. D. I apologize i misread something you typed 20 pages ago. However you do seem to ignore the fact that humans will take advantage of other humans escpecially if there is no fear of consequences. Ie a private security firm will not chase a con man who has left their geographical area as it is a waste of $ for them, the chances of capture/reimbursement being practially 0. neither will they chase a killer who changes location. changing human societal values will not change this. E. Again there is still slavery in the USA. It is illegal now, but that hasn't stopped bad people from turning other less fortunate people into slaves. mostly they are illegal immigrants but the color of their skin or country of origin changes nothing slavery is wrong and is rightfully illegal. How would it be stopped in an anarchy? There is no govt. Poor citizens/immigrants cannot afford a private security firm/DRO( like it would make any difference if they could) nor would they even have access to them. The slavery that exists does so out of sight so don't tell me the people in an anrchy would not permit it as it would be even easier to hide it if no one is looking. 200 years ago slavery was illegal in Canada FYI. I am not arguing with a straw man you are pretending societal values eliminated slavery in the USA. they didnt Lincoln made it illegal with an unpopular act, yet slavery still exists. You have the straw man arguement as your premise, societal values elimenating slavery is just wrong. absolutely no correlation to anything I have said and just plain insulting. F. Seems despite this I am still debating with you, but you challenged my intelectual integrity with the somalia bit without even trying to find actual proof of your assertions, so i felt that I had to reply. Please understand FDR is not a site to get actual information, it is an ideological site set up to fan Molyneux's ego, nothign more. Interesting to see some lines of thought but He himself is so far out there his ideas are based only on emotion with a rather pathetic attempt at hiding them behind fallacious logic.

Ok first off UTF you do not OWN all the land. The town owns a percentage of it. The setback varies from town to town but in my town it is 12 feet. that means the first 12' (setback from the road) belongs to them. I can grow grass, park my car etc. but they own it, a tree on it belongs to them. etc. I maintain the land and have the right to use it, claim it as mine when i buy/sell etc. But the town owns it. Check with your town I have no doubt the results will surprise you. Still in any case the town owns the roads that are the only means to get to or from your house (unless you live on municipal boundry then you can use rear entrance. In fact without the public road you would not even have a house. As all the material/equipment/workers used the road to get to the site to build the house. Again you dont want the roads etc MOVE! Lets face it the roads were there before you. To be continue along such lines you would find that very few jobs or industries would even exist without govt infrastructure. I knwo you dont liek taxes, well neither do I but I am adult enough to admit that If i get somethign I shoudl have to pay and if i dotn want it i dont take it. You dont want roads water garbage remouval, food regulations, health/safety regulations etc just leave no one is stopping you. as to the social contract well its an ambiguous thing that doesnt exist in actual written form but then neither does your NAP. The NAP is an idea that you believe in but that doesnt make it exist. However there is at least an unwritten consent from you for the social contract as you continue to live in society. It is not the same as a slave eating the masters food as the slave is not permitted to leave so dont bother bringing that up you are free to leave. Now you can leave and have your dystopia but how you think you can force Dawh or myself to live in it is beyond me. The world existed in such a way when you were born, you can move and live under different (non existant) rules if you want but you seem to want to force us to let you live among us without accept the rules that are in place when you got here (ie born) But lets just move past your blindness as to taxation. let me see if I can sum up our non taxation arguments to this point. Ok we have DRO's i see no reason why anyone would pay any attention as they have no enforcement. you say private security firms. Ok i say justice goes to rich poor are screwed. Nono you say. why i say. because you say. oh okay then. Hmm private security seems just liek warlords or mafia i say. No you say there will be competition. Oh really why would not these Private secuity firms (ill use mafia for short) not get together and divide the areas geographically, makes good buisness sense to avoid competition, ie have a monopoly. Ah you say monopolies create competiton. what i say? since when? Since it makes my ideals have some sense. Oh i say, so despite the fact monopolies have 100% of the time been odious and killed competition you think it will be different? Yes you say. Ok what about corruption? What about it? without govt there is no corruption you say. Hmm seems Somalia is a perfect example of warlords and corruption and an anarchistic dystopia. NoNo you say Somalis is the exact opposite of a perfect example if we take a few generations to change human nature there will be no corruption/crime. Ahh and how will we change human nature it has never been changed before. yes yes you say it has been changed look the USA got rid of slavery? hmm I say but there is still slavery in the USA. Yes you say but it is no longer accepted. Ahh I say so you wish to change human social values that is not the same thing as human nature. Taxation is theft/violence/slavery you say. And we start over again. Basically UTF you are too invested in this insane idea to see any reason. I will still participate but only to point out that you are so far off the mark in a historical/political/economic/psychological/rational perspective that there is no point in others to waste their time listening to you

do we ATTACH great import to the rules or do we let FATE decide them?

I'm like a leaf, I tend to curl up in the fall

What flavor is the Kool Aid you drink? Seriously there is no point in trying to make you see reason, none of your arguemnts have had anything to do with logic only dogma. You are like the bible thumpers who claim the world is 6k years old because it says so in the bible. they can't tell you exactly where but they are 100% sure of this. If you dont like living in society leave. If you wish to stay then expect to pay. You recieve govt services both active and passive you recieve them because you choose to to live in society. If you wish to not pay then you have no right to any of the advantages society offers.

I have to give it to EDM for being the only positive person out there. Seems Brain deners are a negative bunch though honorable mentions to MM for, well, a good poem and maurice for thinking outside the box. EDM your up

I'll try again the bar anaology, as it really is best, There is a bar, 2 drink minimum. the bar is society. the 2 drinks rule, taxes. drinks are active services, music, lighting etc are passive services. Just so you know what the anaolgy means. You say you don't want a drink, it is theft to make you buy it, because if you dont I will threaten violence against you. really why the rules are clear you can leave if you like. the bar requires money to pay the Dj, entertainment staff why should you not have to pay? You claim you dont want to listen to the music that I force you to? really? why? you can leave? You wish to stay at the bar becaue it is fun and people are there, you don't want the music, drinks. Fair enough, but most people are there for the music, drinks etc. If you take away the building, bar, music, lights, heating/cooling. etc you just have an empty field where no one goes. You want to live in a field go ahead but don't claim I am forcing you to live there or that I am forcing you to buy the 2 drinks. The CHOICE is yours and yours alone.

Again UTF you refuse to see that your CHOICES put yuu in a position that forces you to pay taxes. IT is EXACTLTY like the Walmart analogy. You want to avoid taxes then make the choices that exclude you from paying them. No one has a gun at your head saying live hear and work at this job. the only gun is the one you are pointing at yourself. Untill you realize that I will continue to point out to everyone that your premise is completely based on you WANTING all the advantages of scoiety while you deny any OBLIGATION to that society. Again you are the one who wishes to partake in theft not the govt. Stop pretending there is a gun to your head YOU put it there not me, not the govt, YOU Everything else you say is irrelevant as your premise is so far off base, though like I said before every part of your program will lead only to dictatorship of some kind.

Been at work with a computer that doesnt liek the internet. ok If you were a rose.....

GANGS

So you admit that you are not FORCED to pay taxes, that you in fact CHOOSE to pay them?

I'm always right.. I only do what me wife tells me.

FLED if 2 than D is last as FLEX =1 only change is X-D