plasmid

Agreed, the presentation could be improved quite a bit. How about this as a draft for a post on Richard Dawkins? It seems readable by the casual browser, but do you think it's missing any important stuff that defines what Phronism is and how it's expected to operate, or gets too extraneous at points? Go ahead and edit, guys. One of the fears I have with that forum is that people will just say that any religion is senseless and dismiss it without further consideration. I tried to set this up as a choice between Phronism or current religions, not between Phronism or atheism, because I know what that crowd would say to the second option. Hopefully it comes across that way well enough. Title: A useful religion? On another forum, a few of us took up the following question: Religion is fairly widespread across virtually all civilizations, presumably indicating a deep fundamental drive for most people to have a religious experience. If so, then we should try to meet this need with a religion that is as benign and perhaps even beneficial to humanity as possible. Would any of the current mainstream religions fit that bill, or could something even better be devised? To avoid the cop-out answer of "make everyone be atheist", the OP notes that doing so would be inviting something genuinely nasty along the lines of militant jihadists or another Jonestown to take root and fill the religious void among people who are inclined toward religion. The solution we came up with is an outline of a new religion we called Phronism. Briefly, instead of a God, it describes something called "the Essence" which is most easily understood by an atheists as being all of the laws of nature (cause and effect anyway) rolled up into a single, only slightly anthropomorphized thing. Phronism is all about understanding the Essence and using that understanding to "harmonize" with it, which means acting to create a better society. The specifics of how to do this are laid down in core Phronist doctrine only in very broad terms: be honest, help others, achieve your potential to advance humanity. When it comes to the details of how to implement these broadly framed goals, Phronism will have many different denominations to specify reasonable moral guidelines and to provide many of the trappings of modern religion (meeting for a weekly service, holding weddings and funerals if the denomination adopts those practices, having wise elders you can talk to) in a way palatable to the local circumstances, prevailing customs at the time, and scientific advancements. People are free to choose which denomination they want to associate with, and are instructed in the parables that make up the core doctrine of Phronism to visit other denominations frequently (at least every three years) and choose the one that they find drives them to best harmonize with the Essence (do the most good for society). The denominations will likely evolve over time much faster than current religions: new ones can spring up easily, and people are required to periodically try out other denominations, which should give them the chance to undergo natural selection. Phronists are actively encouraged to heed the advice of outsiders who offer sincere advice on what they believe is the best course of action, and are instructed to judge the words of Phronists and outsiders alike based not on who said them but on how much sense they make. This is meant not only to moderate the believers, but also to make it a much easier transition if a believer wishes to leave and become an atheist, allowing for the possibility of eventual dissolution of Phronism into an atheist society. Phronism's core doctrine is silent on the existence of God, although it excludes the specific possibility of an omnipotent, omniscient, interventionalist God, and people are encouraged toward action to harmonize with the Essence (improve society) rather than prayer and sacrifices to a God as the path to fulfillment. As for "afterlife", Phronism explicitly says that life as we know it does end with death, but it does describe a different form of existence after death – a merging back with the Essence that is enjoyed proportionally to how well you harmonized with the Essence during your life. (Admittedly a bit of a lie as far as we know, but one we felt was key to give Phronism the "look and feel" of a religion, and which shouldn't cause much harm.) But my question for this forum is: Might such a religion accomplish the stated goal of being a useful religion (at least compared to what we've got now)? What might happen if it were launched and took root? And are there any changes that could be made to it that might lead to a more favorable outcome? We did go into quite a bit more detail in the design of the religion that I could share if desired, complete with a story of its inception, a small set of parables that would form the basis of its doctrine as presented to the believers, and its own religious symbol.

Or an alternative explanation: A quick search for the last activity dates for some of the participants in the old religion threads showed bran May 7 adparker May 30 kawnsentrait Jun 22 izzy yesterday hugemonkey Jul 8 d3k3 Jul 16 andromeda Jul 16 Most people have a fairly good excuse for not responding: they haven't seen the thread. Except for Izzy, I don't know what's holding her back. Maybe whenever ADParker does show back up he'll jump in. In the meantime, the mention of posting at another venue does seem appealing. This seems like the sort of thing that nonbelievers would enjoy thinking about and offering insight if they thought it might actually accomplish its goal. Any suggestions on a good place to post?

You've nailed this one, Wilson

Unusual to have a post about religion garner so little response on this forum. Maybe one lesson is that it's very difficult to convey something like a religion in a nutshell succinct enough for a forum reader to read, and expect them to get very excited about the subtleties that went into making it and how it's intended to operate in practice. If one were to read the holy texts of the great religions without guidance and experiencing the culture and lifestyles that went along with them, I bet they'd take away a much different picture than what the actual practitioners walk away with. For that reason, I'll abandon my initial strategy of keeping silent on the thinking and intended practical implementation of Phronism and will answer any questions about it -- separating the religion from the culture and lifestyle and practices it's meant to operate under would be like telling a story with a detailed plot but no character development: intricate perhaps, but a little unsatisfying. And I really do think that Phronism has been designed in such a way that would make it a genuinely useful religion (or at least by far the best one out there) were it to be adopted by actual practitioners. So, does anyone out there have some thoughts on how an idea like this might take root and grow in the real world?

I've never actually played one of those, but have seen how the rules are typically structured. It fits quite well with most of the riddle, but I've never seen one where the bit about finding the mate at the end of the journey would apply, and the flying high and swooping down line would be a strange description of it.

Not them; if the third stanza could actually be spoken by those critters, then hunting them would be much less common. Neither of those two and not a bomber. Three down, ~499,997 words in the English language left to go... Started my new job a few weeks ago, which has been making my visits to BrainDen few and far between lately. Interesting answer, it could fit with most of the riddle, but I'm not sure what you might have in mind as the mate at the end in the last stanza. Wow, that makes for an interesting interpretation since those could be used in either the classical way as a game or in the setting-up-and-knocking-over sort of pasttime. The classical game would fit really well with the last stanza as far as scoring, but wouldn't make as much sense with the middle two. The chain reaction would fit well with the middle two stanzas, but the dozen in the first line would be an awfully small number, and the last stanza would be difficult to interpret: if the mates are the two halves of the unit, then they would be together the entire time instead of found when the journey is done; if the mates are the starter's finger and the end of the chain reaction, then the last two lines wouldn't really make sense.

We dirty dozen cross the plain While zigging and zagging about This grizzly dance might entertain Were not my survival in doubt We follow scorched and shadowed paths As killers attack from their berth We hope it's they who taste our wraths; Be wiped from the face of the Earth First flying high, then diving down I'll take them all out in succession Strike one, then two, then three a round 'Twould make an impressive procession And all this effort's for the mate I'll find when the journey is done We don't intend to procreate But two is far stronger than one

So glad to get back on BrainDen for a moment, the new job has been tough.

Some of you may have noticed the topic on this forum: "A useful religion?" Briefly, the OP observed how widespread religion is across virtually all civilizations, presumably indicating a deep fundamental drive for most people to have a religious experience. If so, then that need ought to be met by a religion that is as benign and perhaps even beneficial as possible. Would any of the current mainstream religions fit the bill, or could something even better be devised? To avoid the cop-out answer of "make everyone be atheist", the OP notes that doing so would be inviting something along the lines of militant jihadists or another Jonestown to take root and fill that religious void. Well, during the course of our discussions, something quite astonishing happened. Divine intervention as a matter of fact. Our eyes were opened, and the religion of Phronism was outlined. Now we present this new religion for your scrutiny, and invite your insights into what might happen if such a beast were released to the world, and whether further tweaking might produce even more useful results. For now, I will deliberately present just the doctrine without explaining why each of the facets of the religion was adopted, in an effort to avoid guiding the discussion into any one direction too much.

I'm finally back for a moment; even orientation for my new job has been busy, and it looks like I'll be nearly out of commission as far as BrainDen starting on Sunday. For slogans, while I have my own personal preferences, I'm afraid that I really don't know what would best strike a chord with our target audience. But I'll still list a few that I like. Phronism is the religion your conscience is already practicing. or Phronism: what the wise have been doing all along. THINK. ACT. LIVE. Phronism: Your (soul or organ) knows it's right. Religion and science have signed a truce. Actions speak louder than sermons. And it reminds me of a quote (questionably) attributed to Einstein: Science without faith is lame. Faith without science is blind. As for weddings and funerals, I just listed them as being examples of the types of stuff that the denoms might codify their own procedures for, without meaning to imply that they would be mandatory. I would imagine they'd be quite useful when getting initial converts coming out of classical religions who consider that kind of stuff to be part of religion's job. Beyond that though, they might have actual practical utility. I had always been taught that big elaborate weddings that the bride and groom have to plan for themselves are useful screening tests: Any couple that can't survive the inevitable stress and arguments and perceived crises involved in planning a wedding are not going to survive a marriage. I also admire some cultures' tradition of having the groom pay for the wedding: if he can't afford a wedding, then he probably can't afford a family. Funerals I'm less sure about. Perhaps it's an overall psychological plus, perhaps not, perhaps there are better ways of doing it (e.g. for families spread out across the country: having more distant relatives occasionally meet the immediate family in a more staggered fashion over time so there's not just a single ceremony after which everyone splits?). If not having any funerals at all is the best way to go, then that's the way the denoms can go, but I suspect that won't be the case.

That's the answer, with quite a bit of progress made by several contributing BrainDenners along the way. I certainly hope it's a satisfying enough answer and that all the clues now make sense without seeming like much of a stretch; rising from the horizon of the black sky, following a tortuous route, eroding to leave behind nothing but brightness where it flowed (which darkness eventually reconsumes), even the "screaming" across, and of course giving direction to the astute as long as they stay silent, ignore the airplanes, and aren't lulled to sleep. Incidentally, I'm also going to see if we can make spoilers work in the poll showing that the riddle has been solved. If so, just make a spoiler in the message window and cut & paste it to the Poll Choice. Edit: Dang, didn't work.

That scene is in fact where I was going with this. Now it's just a matter of finding a source of "light" that takes a more tortuous route and erodes to leave nothing but brightness.

Must run, but so far the closest answers have been the laser pointer and a slideshow, sort of hypnotization in a funny way. The color coding clue says that there is some trickery in interpreting what brightness and light means, and what the airplanes are.

These are all in the ballpark of the answer. Find out how that sort of tricky "airplane" clue could fit into the scene and you'll probably have it.

When you see what the answer is, you might find it funny how aptly that could describe the setting where the answer is in action. But for this riddle I am sticking to my usual rule: I am a noun.

Quite a well conceived answer. It even goes with the red & blue on white colors You're right in that the big drawback is that the answer would have to be a couple of different things in order to make both the flowing tails giving direction and the erosion fit, even though they are all part of the same scene. If the color cues weren't helping out, it might be time for a different nudge. The last six lines are there to help establish a particular kind of location, and remember that the color cue is saying that there's some trickery involved in correctly interpreting the "airplanes" clue and what an "exhibition" is.

Grayven seems to be back, so it looks like a good time to recompile everything. After reading it over again, one thing really jumped out at me as not jiving. Comparing the parables "Zoroaster, on how to harmonize with the Essence", "Buddha, on finding your own path to harmonize with the Essence", and "Mahavira, on listening to outsiders", they seem to me like they're delivering rather conflicting messages. We might have a real difference in priorities here. The Zoroaster parable saying that the way to harmonize is with productive action and the Mahavira one on listening to outsiders are two that I consider to be delivering some of the most important material that makes Phronism particularly useful as a religion. With the Buddha one, it's definitely true that people should be free to find their own paths through life, but to some degree that message is already being delivered by having many different denominations to choose from and by allowing people to start new denominations, and I really think that it all needs to be done within the constraints of choosing a path of useful action and mindfulness of the wise that doesn't come across with the parable as it is now. I would propose either not including the monk-turned-Buddha parable, or modifying it to make the importance of leading to useful action at the end of the day and listening to outsiders much more clear.

It would be a little unusual for them to lull people to sleep, and very unusual for them to call for silence. Welcome back, Shakee. I live too close to the equator to have ever actually seen one, and had always thought that they didn't touch the horizon since they originate in the ionosphere and that they were stationary. My first misconception has been debunked by Googling some: they can appear on the horizon depending on your viewpoint, and a little more reading showed that sometimes they are rather active. So now I'm forced to resort to weaker clues: the order of events in lines 6 and 7 would be mixed up you're talking about the macroscopic phenomenon, and if you're talking about the constituent atoms they don't actually erode to produce the light.

The rhyming is rather appropriate as the first guess is now quite close. They don't really erode much, though.

Hmm... an old film-and-reel based movie with visual cues for the projectionist to know when to switch reels that's being shown to an audience that probably has young kids in the car since they're the ones most likely to fall off to sleep during the movie or to make noises that despite the relative isolation of being in their own family's car are still inappropriately too loud. I surrender! There's no way to exclude every other possible answer! I've got an answer in mind that seems more straightforward.

Welcome to BrainDen, kevbob, and it's good to see that you're using spoilers on your first post. That answer isn't it, though: it doesn't call for the silence like line 12 says, and shouldn't leave people in danger of falling asleep.

No, those shouldn't really erode. Too close to the title's exclusion. Now it's the end of the working day over most of the US, so I'll go ahead and give a hint. I couldn't really think of a great way of hinting without pretty much giving it away, so I'm going to try something a little different: color coding which parts I'm interpreting more literally (blue) and which ones are more figurative or somehow call for typical riddler trickery to interpret (red). When scheduled to shine, from horizons we rise Now airborne traversing the darkest of skies With people observing our tortuous route We're giving direction to those most astute Our tails recapitulate paths where we flowed As screaming across, over time we erode 'til nothing but brightness is left in our wake And then, even that will the darkness retake To those who have gathered, while brilliance persists Behold exhibitions you don't want to miss Ignoring the airplanes, just gaze on our light Maintaining a silence, or scorn you'll incite Remember, if anything hoping to reap You'd better avoid being lulled off to sleep