310 replies to this topic

[solman]

Yes, the credit was due to BTSC discussions. He could have had his WinCon met earlier (USA and Russia were known to them after N1/D1), but he supported (and even proposed) actions in N2 that allowed the other two to achieve their own individual WinCon. Maurice did most of the powerplaying in both N1 and N2.

I'm pleased that you weren't willing to reward the "lets all do nothing strategy". I was a bit surprised to see both of baddies survive the final night.

But I think that this credit to Maurice is misplaced for the exact same reason. Maurice's only realistic opportunity to win was through individual wincon. If he chose to put the group ahead of himself, it seems pretty analogous to what Hirk did. He didn't focus sufficiently on winning. Even if he hadn't been lynched, his actions allowed his only allies to escape (guaranteeing his demise anyway).

[maurice]

I'm pleased that you weren't willing to reward the "lets all do nothing strategy". I was a bit surprised to see both of baddies survive the final night.

But I think that this credit to Maurice is misplaced for the exact same reason. Maurice's only realistic opportunity to win was through individual wincon. If he chose to put the group ahead of himself, it seems pretty analogous to what Hirk did. He didn't focus sufficiently on winning. Even if he hadn't been lynched, his actions allowed his only allies to escape (guaranteeing his demise anyway).

Ahh, not quite true, solman. I tried to balance winning as a group with each of us winning on our own if need be.

N2 we "should have" killed Hirk and Marq. In a typical Mafia, the baddies have a chance to kill the spy and the goodie kill in one night, they take it. But I backed away because we needed to work as a group and I hoped at least one of us could get a win. So I proposed spying Thalia and killing Framm. Did that mean we couldn't win as a group. No! I hoped to lynch Marq which coupled with Hirk's death would have meant we all had our WinCon's met. But it also would have pretty much given us the win as a group.

Even with the failure to kill Hirk, we still could have won as a group. had my teammates not been asleep or lost track of time due to other hosting duties we would have lynched curr D2. At that point I would have told Thalia that she needs to leave else we would kill her N4 so we'd have no traps to worry about. We win D4 lynch hands down (even without the manips) and it's over.

Here's the difference though. With the exception of Hirk, who could not die N3, I don't think the goodies put the group ahead of themselves. They put themselves first and agreed to a scheme that would ensure they would not die N3. I saw that as selfish. Someone should have just said, "no frickin' way baddies! Hirk, RID Kill Molly and tomorrow we shall lynch Shadow". I even said in the ghost BTSC that it was over. There was no way for the baddies to stop Hirk's RID Kill nor Shadow's impending lynch. Now maybe one (or two) goodies would die, but the other goodies would win and no baddies would. I played to win for myself, but when it became clear that Molly and Shadow had an easier (clear) path to their WinCons I decided I'd take the bullet if it needed to come down to that (which again it shouldn't have had to, but oh well). And my actions didn't guarantee my demise, just that if a baddie were to meet their demise, the one who was furthest from their WinCon would. Again I see that as unselfish and the "let's do nothing" tactic as selfish.

Edited by maurice, 16 April 2011 - 05:42 PM.

[curr3nt]

I'm not sure you could have lynched me D2. With all three baddies up I would hope that the goodies would have tried for a baddie before the indy.

[maurice]

curr, if my buddies had voted for you it would have been 4-3 since Thalia didn't vote and Hirk was jailed...mo, s7, mm, marq(which we hoped was x2, but didn't want to be x0) vs curr, gj, sol.

[curr3nt]

Anyone want to tell me why what I did was completely wrong?

From hints given and info I had - If everyone was telling the truth by words and actions
Vine could only be Austraila
Hirkala could only be USA
Thalia could only be England
Golf could only be Germany
Maurice could only be Russia
Molly could only be Spain
Solman could only be Israel

Marq, Framm and Shadow are unknown

From there I saw it as a matter of if/then counters.

Solman countered Molly making Solman Spain and Molly Argentina
Thalia countered Maurice making Marq Russia and Maurice a baddie
Framm dead made him likely Israel

Leaving Molly, Maurice and Shadow as baddies

Why was it wrong (rule-wise) for me to put all that out there?

[curr3nt]

curr, if my buddies had voted for you it would have been 4-3 since Thalia didn't vote and Hirk was jailed...mo, s7, mm, marq(which we hoped was x2, but didn't want to be x0) vs curr, gj, sol.

That would be counting on Marq not realizing that you would likely choose to move him and Thalia not returning to vote.

If you ganged up on me earlier would Thalia not have voted too? If you waited to the last moment to switch would the goodies still have trusted you enough to abstain?

Why didn't you vote Thalia?

[maurice]

Rule-wise it wasn't wrong. I shouldn't speak much for two reasons, I was a baddie and I have often thought that all goodies should out themselves and then wherever there is a double up of claims, you lynch.

But the problem is that that doesn't work with people as well as in a simulation, due to trust, inactivity, etc. You must consider we are all human and process info, emotion etc. differently.

Specifically for this game it was wrong because we didn't know England, Sweden, Israel nor Sweden until you told us. You helped Molly and S7 meet their WinCon. Had they not N3 plays out differently, no?

From an ettiquette stand point, if you are on my side I don't want you outting me. If people don't pick up my hints then too bad. If I want to be outted, i'll do it myself. Additionally some players leave false hints to protect themsrlves, others, etc.( Recall Foodie Mafia.) If you call them on it, it could screw a solid plan that you aren't privy to.

I'll touch on Foodie Mafia some more, since I know you must feel the actions are comparable. I believe you did it later in the game, when we had the baddies cornered. Also recall I tried to protect you by making you bad in my view. Had anyone picked up on that and did what you did, they would not have placed you in my btsc, likely. Just my thoughts.

Edited by maurice, 16 April 2011 - 07:06 PM.

[araver]

@solman - Again, I've seen the baddie BTSC. Maurice had both the first and the last call in all actions N1 and N2 and they could have won by all three getting their individual WinCons had Maurice not been lynched D2. This balancing-agreement ensured that no baddie would powerplay the other's actions to reach their individual WinCon on their own and brought a second layer of trust within the baddie BTSC.

@Curr3nt - D2 lynch was rather weird to explain minute by minute, but, in all honesty, the plan to which Maurice refers to, with Shadow's switch and Molly's vote (who was occupied with hosting a Mafia) would have ensured them enough votes for a win if Marq had placed x2 (which she did till the very last minute) or a tie with x1 (which was the final call). Again, plan devised by Maurice and not executed by Shadow, and betrayed by Molly for self-preservation (basically no point at that time).

Also, it was wrong to put it out there, from multiple reasons. I will only give you 1. Molly and Hirk mentioned the rest, and I'm sure Maurice will chime in on the rest. EDIT: Maurice already did that as I was typing...

In your position, outing yourself as Sweden + supporting Hirk's claim blew to pieces any WIFOM the baddies had. So from speculation, they went to absolute certainty and narrowed down the rest of roles as a result.
It is very good that you picked all those strong hints (Again, hints from them and claims ONLY TO YOU because you knew who you were AND you knew Australia's spy results which the others did not). But there is a very fine line between having that info and sharing that info. If you were a goodie, it may be a useful strategy (although, from experience, people are NOT inclined to believe you if you have not been cleared first). But you were an Indy with a secret WinCon. You should have known you could NOT be trusted. This is Mafia. If you wanted to get the trust of the goodies, or to get info out there, you should have hinted to the right people (Hirk for example) in a way that only they (and no other) get it using info only you two knew (such as the "Molly is Spain" spy). And even then, chances are they won't believe you. This is Mafia. By saying things out loud, you tip your hand and everyone else's as well to the other faction (which you cannot possibly know what knows or suspects at that precise moment). Basically, WIFOM and hints would have gotten you much further IMHO.

Edited by araver, 16 April 2011 - 07:10 PM.

[maurice]

That would be counting on Marq not realizing that you would likely choose to move him and Thalia not returning to vote.

If you ganged up on me earlier would Thalia not have voted too? If you waited to the last moment to switch would the goodies still have trusted you enough to abstain?

Why didn't you vote Thalia?

Abstain wasn't the goal at that point. Winning straight up was. Also we had our eye on Marq. We took that into consideration

[curr3nt]

I also think "hints" help the baddies more since there are more eyes looking. Goodies are more likely to miss then IMO.

I am thinking I should have waited until D2. I was hoping the info might help some goodies with actions N2 and figured the baddies knew most of the same info I already did. They also knew Solman was a goodie and Hirkala's comment hinted to Spain as the result covering what I actually knew for sure.

The gamble is did the baddies miss the hints or not. I felt I had to assume not.