[Guest]

Any person can comment on this post, but it's geared towards Christians (Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.) Anyone can post the first subject of conversation. Just discuss issues about the religion (Heaven, evangelism,etc.)

[Guest]

I thought I should add this as a justification of God. It's from a post of mine in "Religion: Debate Style".

Well, the fact is, Christianity or not, their has to be a higher power, until scientists get smarter.

Well that is the most openly blatant use of the Argument from Ignorance Logical Fallacy that I have ever seen! And I have seen so very many.

You even admit that it can only be believed to be true UNTIL scientists prove it to have been false all along

One wonders why you assume that anything HAS to be true until someone can prove that it is not! Do you believe that the world really was flat, until someone proved it to be otherwise?!

Think of the Big Bang as a dominoe effect. Big bang happens, because of that planets form, when earth forms volcanoes form, stromatolites appear, carbon dioxide warms climate, new life forms appear, and we come into the scene. Someone had to have started the Big Bang, since their was no space and time before, as scientists have said.

Since there was no time or space; they, it seems, developed out of the big bang rapid inflation event, how on earth can you know that which you seem to assume to be a given: cause and effect, actually was the case at the point of the big bang, or 'before' it (if "before" means anything without the time dimension!)

This is an assumption based on human experiences, in a very limited setting, far far different than those at the point of the big bang! It is simply inappropriate to try to apply you "middle world ape brain" 'common sense' assumptions and impressions to such an event so far beyond the nature, time and scale of you (or any living thing's) perceptions!

Hel; we don't even have a single form of physics that works there! We have no real idea of what 'laws', if any, were in play, at, or around the big bang event. Yet somehow you, above all professional experts in the relevant fields who have dedicated their careers, their very lives, to the search for the answers to these question, claim to know the answer!

Do you have to wear a specially made hat to fit over that colossal ego? I mean what unmitigated Hubris to make such a huge assertion! Shall we add that to the list along with pride?

That starter was God, the higher power.

Mere assumption based on unconnected prior beliefs. Why not Believe that the real first cause was that of the Hindu religion, or that of one of the many ancient African or American tribes, or any number of such beliefs? As it stands they are no better or worse than your assumption.

I sence strong circular reasoning in this one I do.

"The universe had to have a beginning (because the things we see appear to do so - at least for us, on our level of basic perceptions, so I will just assume that this applies everywhere, at every point in time, and even beyond the boarders of time and space, or which we know NOTHING, and at every level of existence. Because it's easier than really rationally contemplating how truly vast my ignorance is and how far it stretches out beyond my cosy little worldview.)" And as I just happen to believe in one particular god of the tens of thousands of gods every dreamed up, who is said to be the creator of everything, I will just assume that that's the answer!"

Basically you have taken your already assumed to be true, so unspoken, premise that your god is real and created the universe, and just plugged it in as the conclusion. Resulting (with hidden premises shown) with this line of *ahem* reasoning:

P1: God, the creator of the universe, is real. (hidden, assumed)

P1. The universe HAD to have a beginning.

Therefore

C: God created the universe. QED!

He was the one who "toppled the first dominoe", so to speak. Another thing, a chemical reaction could not have started even the simplest life. A single-celled organism is far more complex than, say, a speck of dirt, so life did not evolve from inanimate objects.

I would be most impressed with your in depth understanding of chemistry and biochemistry, that lead to your conclusion that " a chemical reaction could not have started even the simplest life," if I brought your empty authoritative line for a second, that is.

Here's another video for you to fail to watch, so to ensure that you can continue to spout your ignorance based dogmatic assumptions with a clear conscience:

Note how it is not such a foolish procession as the ridiculous Creationist Straw Man caricature of "A chance chemical reaction immediately becomes a full blown single celled organism." (Clearly assumed to also be as advanced as the single celled organisms that are alive today; the ones that have had the same ~4,000,000,000 years of evolutionary development as we have!)

But go ahead; it amuses me no end to read people trying to speak with such authoritative conviction on subjects they clearly do not even remotely understand.

Or perhaps I am mistaken, and you do indeed know it to be impossible, and are right this minute awaiting your paper proving this, to be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that you have submitted it to, and furthermore are feeling quite confidant - and rightly so -of your chances of receiving your much deserved Nobel Prize (either "in Chemistry" or "in Physiology or Medicine" depending on what angle you came from to make that startling, world changing, discovery.) Please do let me know when this 'proof' is published, I would very much like to read it.

God was the one who intervened, set conditions right, and started life on Earth.

Mere assertion. I know of no evidence that even seriously, rationally, hints at such a wild assertion.

The question as always is: Why should I, should anyone, believe you?

[Guest]

Why do we not just get what we want, ADparker? Well, you're obviously thinking in a shallow way. If you don't get what you want, it's either a test or a lesson. You won't always get what you want, and God's not gonna spoi You. Think about the book of Job. And of course we should apologize to those whom we wrong. I never said not to.

Since you brought this up, lets take a look at the book of Job.

I like this book, it really shows the moral fiber of the bible. Let me give you quick breakdown.

God and Satan are chatting, probably having toast or tea or something, and Satan says, "Hey YHWH, your people only worship you because they have a good life! I bet if you let me ruin every possible facet of a person's life he wouldn't love you anymore!" at this, which is basically a dare and God is not one to turn down dares, he responds something along the lines of "Nuh-uh" and they go to town.

First, they (which I will use generally to include God alowing Satan to do, God doing upon Satan's request or anything which is not quite so clear) kill all of Job's animals, his livestock, and his slaves (which God is okay with him owning and treats them almost as if they are nothing more than livestock in this context, but now is not the time to delve back into that subject). Next they kill all of his kids. At this point Job is bitter, but ironically does not blame God (the entity actually responsible for it) which would be expected in the faithful who assume that anything good in their life came from God and anything bad is due to human faults, a self propagating faith. At this point they don't think he suffered enough, so they give him a plague of boils that cover his body from head to toe. At this point they kill a bunch of people and Job gets in a bunch of trouble and receives no help from God. But it is OK, God gives him new stuff once Job had proved his moronically blind faith in God being good and makes his life better than it ever was before. His new life even comes with a replacement set of kids with even prettier daughters!

This is exactly the kind of God I want to worship.

* summary paraphrased from here

[Guest]

and again I say to thee:

Anyways, I didn't intend for this thread to be the subject of controversy, it was for interpretation of the Bible and living life religiously.

I'm getting worn out, seriously.

[Guest]

no duh, gimme a break

Was this in response to me? I asked you a few questions if it is. I honestly would like to know if you have ever, pardon the term, played devil's advocate against your own faith to test it? Have you ever opened your mind and tried to see things from an atheist or secular perspective? I legitimately want to know if you have ever stood beside yourself and questioned what and why you believe what you do even in the face of such overwhelming evidence against it.

Edit>> Forgot to mention that I have. I tried to find God, a blind faith is so much easier than thinking all the time. I went to bible studies and I read christian literature. I prayed. I truly and legitimately tried to find God. Seek and Ye shall find Me? not so much on my side, but then again if God would really make himself known to anybody who truly wants to find him, he would have shown himself in ways that scientists could interpret because I honestly don't think anybody would be more excited to find proof of God than them.

Edited May 1, 2009 by kawnsentrait

[Guest]

kawnenstrait, the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Everything we own is God's, He can take it away if He wants to. But you're atheist I thought, so it probably doesn't matter.

[Guest]

yes yes yes, anythin more to throw?

[Guest]

and again I say to thee:

Anyways, I didn't intend for this thread to be the subject of controversy, it was for interpretation of the Bible and living life religiously.

I'm getting worn out, seriously.

[moderating]

Bran, if you're getting worn out you can simply stop posting. Stop repeatedly hinting that it is others you'd rather not hear from as I have already told you that the posts of those that disagree with yours are welcome here. In short- knock it off!

[/moderating]

[Guest]

yes yes yes, anythin more to throw?

I guess you answering yes is ike answering yes when somebody asks if you want grilled cheese or macaroni for dinner. It is a true answer, but not in any way does it help propel the conversation. I would like to know what you have done to test your faith, if that is not too personal. Did you really try to say, what if there is no God? What if religion is just another myth? What if I am totally wrong? Is evolution really a bunch of bunk? Have any of my prayers really ever been answered? Would I really be that upset if I died and there was no heaven? Do I really only not do bad things because the bible tells me not to? (that one is a big one, because if you need the bible to tell you not to kill people and steal their stuff, you have some pretty major issues)

Have you really read anything we posted yet? It is not here to bash your worldview, it is posted to help you open your mind to the beauty of the the truth that religion is uneccessary, life is wonderful just for being alive.

[Guest]

I gotta go to bed. I have to get up in 5 hours and learn how to give sponge baths to the elderly while I care for the sick and dying. I really am a terrible atheist huh?

I look forward to rejoining the conversation tomorrow.

G'night!

[Guest]

really, a religion, especially Christianity, is beneficial to health, and you have nothing to lose by one. good night.

[Guest]

Also, IF and i do stress the word if, evolution is true in the way that most people think about it, then what is the basis for all morals?

I am not at all confidant that evolution is true in the way most people think of it

That's another typical canard. Doesn't have ANYTHING to do with christianity though. Why do all creationists twist any discussion on religion, or some subset thereof, into one on the scientific fact and theory of evolution?

*Never mind, it's rhetorical question.

This is not the place, so I will just say that there are entire books on the subject (I have one waiting for me in my book pile - just have to slog through the rest of Darwin's Descent of Man first ) Why not put in the effort and research the work men and women have dedicated millions of man hours to try to answer that question? Be warned however that this approach does not give the simple vapid, rational-support free, glib answers you might be more used to. Life, the universe and everything is rarely so obliging.

Or do you prefer to rest you confidence on the empty assertion you got from some creationist apologist, and the naive unthinking belief that because you couldn't figure it out after pondering on it for a few minutes, that it must be impossible? It's entirely up to you.

What is the basis for all thought?

Good question! Not a Christian Discussion" one, but still...

The fields you will be wanting to focus your research on are: Cognitive science, neurobiology, and particular areas of evolutionary biology. A bit of "Theory of mind" (A largely philosophical disciple, but verging and overlapping on the scientific more and more these days) wouldn't go amiss either.

How could that have come into being?

Again; A good question! But not a Christian Discussion" one.

Same answer, look into those fields; especially those focusing on the "historical science" efforts to answer that question.

Since you are on about minds; why not take a gander of a video lecture about minds that is actually related to religion:

if it was all due to chance then wouldn't that make life pretty meaningless?

Not the old creationist "chance" straw man canard as well!

What is it with you guys; so overly simplistically black or white all the time: "it's either design or chance". The good old False Dilemma." (man that Logical Fallacy website is getting a hammering by you lot today, eh? )

As, once again; this is not a thread about such things, I suggest you check out Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea. It has a lot of good stuff on why this assumption of yours is mistaken. Richard Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker is another good one.

And now the "life is meaningless unless there is a god" canard. Pulling out all of the classics aren't you?

My immediate reactin was to think of this quote:

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

-- Douglas Adams, in Last Chance To See.

Is your life so bereft of meaning and value that you feel the need to believe in some extra super father figure before you can see any value in anything? Do you not see any value in your family, friends, loved ones, your passions and joys? Do they not give your life various different kinds of meaning? If so, then I am sorry for you, I truly am.

It saddens me that some people can not see that meaning is a personal positive valuation an agent places on something, their feelings toward it ARE the meaning it has for them. As such; pretty much everything has some "meaning" for someone (not just for humans though, other organisms as well) and most of them have many many meanings, as they are appreciated and valued by many many organisms in many many different ways.

Does your life have any meaning? Well do YOU value it? There's a level of meaning right there, and you didn't even have to look further than your own inner thoughts! Not even to those around you who love you and thus find great meaning in your existence and presence in their lives.

This religious assumption that you offer is actually very demeaning; You make out (and I accept actually believe) that your religious belief in this god of yours actually gives things meaning, which they would not have otherwise. But, on the contrary, your religious doctrine is the one that tells you that, contrary to the evidence of your own eyes and mind (as I am sure you can ascribe meaning to all kinds of things, and see others doing the same - e.g. you might wonder why your little sister values her favourite doll so highly - why she ascribes such a strong level of meaning to it), that nothing at all has any real meaning, and no one's actually feelings that something has some meaning to them or others, REALLY COUNTS, only what your god thinks, likes and values, is of any real worth!

i highly, thoroughly, and extremely doubt that such complex lifeforms could have been due to chance.

Good; that would be silly.

Do you have anything to say about Christianity though? Just asking, you did come to THIS thread after all.

[Guest]

I actually agree. Since evolution is about "suvival of the fittest,"

It's barely about "survival of the fittest." That is simply one rather inadequate attempt at a little "sound-bite" of what some aspects of it are. (It was actually coined by a philosopher in order to connect certain ideas about natural selection (Darwin's new idea at the times) and economics!)

See, this is what I meant about "the way that most people think about it."

it would be more profitable to be a terrible and evil person.

That is a most naive and ignorant impression of your clearly most trivially poor grasp of the theory.

Education on this subject must be so greatly lacking, if this is the kind of thing we have to out up with.

I would say more, but this is not an ethics and evolution thread.

However, because we have morals from religion, we are better people.

That is not where morals come from. Even most serious theologians are fully aware of that.

What's life without God? Pretty sad; you live, you die, the end.

REALLY?! DO you not see any value in worth in that bit in between either?! Why is your life so miserable and bereft of personal value that you can only get through by imagining that after you survive your own death you will be given a better one?

Do you need a hug?

I notice that Christians have a better outlook on life and morality.

Funny; I notice on the whole, the exact opposite, on both counts.

[Guest]

Do you know why Christianity became as big as it did? because it eliminated all kinds of stupid mosaic laws for people who were fed up with them. Do you know how it spread across the world and remained strong? By either assimilating the beliefs of other religions (Check out his link if you don't think that happened) or by killing the infidels and heretics.

That's true. But that video is inane. Sorry, it really is - I think it competes pretty well against Ben Stein's Expelled, for the amount of FAIL it contains.

The makers of it made another on money; just as bad. They act like the worst of religious apologists; twisting and flat out making crap up, as long as it furthers there agenda. Proof that atheists can be just as ridiculous, deceitful and malicious as theists can.

[Guest]

besides, this is a conversation about thae bible and how normal people interpret it.

Fair enough. In my opinion, depending on how one defines "normal" I would have to say:

As Fiction.

By the way, with that Revelations stuff: why do you think they felt the need to cover it all in that beasts and dragons rot? Personally if I had such an important revelation, I would try my darndest to make it perefectly clear to all as to what I had learned. For the reasons that:

1. People would not have to go to such tortuous twisted means to untangle what was being said.

2. (related to 1.) So that no one would get the wrong end of the stick, as easily as they can here.

3. So that I can not so easily be dismissed as a wacko, not because I care personally, but because that would result in most people ignoring the important message.

4. Because I would actually care enough about others to make every to help them by letting them know, and

5. Simply because clarity is the rational thing to strive for (Clever little cover words and the like, especially arbitrary in mystical and 'sciency' jargon, are generally used to cover up sloppy work.)

And on that note: if you believe so much of the other magic man stuff, and take so much of it literally, what is holding you back from doing likewise in that last book of the bible?! Seems rather odd.

Rule one for communion (a.k.a. eucharist) no communion if you are not baptized. Rule two, you must cleanse yourself of sin and confess yourself before the Lord before you partake. If you eat the bread and drink the of the cup in a sinful manner, then you are guilty of the body and blood of Christ. Do it as often as you do in remembrance of Him. Communion cleanses you and is a reminder of your covenant with God.

Who says "drink of the cup" anymore? Seriously!

What does "guilty of the body and blood of Christ" mean? Do you think that eating bread and drinking wine NOW somehow (magically one must assume) makes you guilty of executing some guy almost 2,000 years before you were even born?!

[Guest]

Since you brought this up, lets take a look at the book of Job.

I like this book, it really shows the moral fiber of the bible. Let me give you quick breakdown.

<snip>

* summary paraphrased from here

Yes it's truly a wonderful story isn't it? That God eh? What a lovely fella.

The really weird thing is that THIS is the kind of Bible story so many believers bring up, and they think it actually works in their favour!

[Guest]

really, a religion, especially Christianity, is beneficial to health, and you have nothing to lose by one. good night.

Had one thanks. Grew up, didn't like it anymore, found it petty, naive and so rationally and ethically wanting that it hurt. So I went on to better things; like philosophy and science, and their honest efforts to better our understanding of such things, as they really are.

[Guest]

Actually, the video Expelled is pretty good. Another point is that you don't lose anything by having a religion, and sad, pathetic wretches who don't understand Christianity as a true Christian does are the only people who quit the church.

[Izzy]

Actually, the video Expelled is pretty good. Another point is that you don't lose anything by having a religion, and sad, pathetic wretches who don't understand Christianity as a true Christian does are the only people who quit the church.

My emphasis. I'm offended.

[Izzy]

Sad, pathetic wretches Intelligent people who don't understand the true aspects of Christianity, past the lies Christians have been spreading for the last two millennnia and realize in depth the utter amount of brainwashing going on as a true Christian does are the only people who quit the church.

There, fixed it for you.

[Guest]

There, fixed it for you.

I'm finding your revision offensive. You just basically verbally attacked all christians and said that people who don't quit church are not intelligent and being brianwashed.

[Izzy]

The fundamental difference is that what I'm saying is true, whether the majority of people realize it or not, while what Bran was saying was an actual insult. Calling someone a 'sad pathetic wretch' is entirely different than saying something along the lines of 'Christians brain wash their children through childhood indoctrination, and intelligent ones escape'. I've been saying that throughout this thread and several others. It isn't an insult, it's mere observation of what's going on.

[Guest]

I'm finding your revision offensive. You just basically verbally attacked all christians and said that people who don't quit church are not intelligent and being brianwashed.

You just find the revision offensive, and not the original post? If you find harsh criticism against Christianity personally offensive, then this thread isn't for you. I mentioned once in this thread already to report posts you think are inappropriate rather than express your displeasure in them in the thread you find them. For the record, attacks against religion, political parties, points of view, etc. are allowed here. Direct insults against BrainDen members are not.

The fundamental difference is that what I'm saying is true, whether the majority of people realize it or not, while what Bran was saying was an actual insult. Calling someone a 'sad pathetic wretch' is entirely different than saying something along the lines of 'Christians brain wash their children through childhood indoctrination, and intelligent ones escape'.

Whether something is true in your opinion does not stop it from being insulting to the other party. "Unintelligent" may be different from "sad pathetic wretch" but I don't find it "entirely" different. However, since neither quote were attacks directed toward specific BrainDen members but attacks on ideologies, I find no fouls.

Let's move on.

[/moderating]

[Guest]

Izzy, that's not true at all. I always have loved the Lord, my parents never brainwashed me, and every Christian I know is sincere. When you become a real Christian, you experience a sense of peace beyond understanding, probably the presence of the Holy Spirit. Go ahead, laugh it if you like. I'm beginning to think that atheists scoff at religions because they're jealous. Well, I may be a bit young and inexperienced in the art of debate, but hopefully I can start holding my own against you folks.

[andromeda]

Go ahead, laugh it if you like. I'm beginning to think that atheists scoff at religions because they're jealous.

I'm sorry but... :lol: WHAT?? I feel free from all the shackles of religion and I'm, most of the times, nice compassionate person that wouldn't hurt a mouse and I wouldn't steal or lie if my life would depend on it (only in mafia )! So I'm not like that because I'm scared of God's wrath but because that's really the person that I am and proud of it

I feel great actually and I wouldn't want it any other way!

Edited May 2, 2009 by andromeda

[Izzy]

Sh*t. I need to be leaving the house and probably shouldn't waste any more time with Bran.. but..

Haha, whut?

Bran, you do realize if you would have been born in India or Africa or something, you're opinion would be completely different, right? It's impossible for you to have 'always loved the Lord' because you had to be introduced to him first. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your parents did the introducing, and if not, continued teaching after you found out. Because of the way Christianity is set up, indoctrination is brainwash whether it's intentional or not.

brainwash - make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure

The radical belief, Christianity. The systematic pressure, Bible. The forcible pressure, fear of Hell and going to church.

When you become a true Christian..

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh yes, I'm jealous. I'm entirely jealous. I'm jealous I can't have a magical fairy man that wants me to devout my life to him. I'm jealous that I can't believe all random murders of children are part of some divine plan. I'm jealous of looking forward to death. </sarcasm> Are you jealous that little kids still believe in Santa? (If you are, that's pretty immature.)