[unreality]

It's fast approaching! Discuss, vote, etc

Edited September 14, 2008 by unreality

[unreality]

Any predictions/comments about the VP debate?

[itachi-san]

Any predictions/comments about the VP debate?

Has anyone heard about the moderator? She wrote a pro-Obama book which will be released on election day. This means she has a vested interest of Obama winning worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can't believe they didn't replace her. Of course, she could moderate the debate fairly, it has yet to be seen. I actually doubt she will be biased, but her interests should have disqualified her IMO.

As for predictions, I have no idea. I feel like it's going to be up to Palin to make or break herself. And judging from her past, she could easily do either. Apparently she blew people away debating for Governor, but then she looked foolish talking to Katey Kourich, so I have no idea how she is going to do. I think Biden just needs to play it safe. I think if the Democrats play it safe from now on, they got this election locked.

[Prof. Templeton]

Has anyone heard about the moderator? She wrote a pro-Obama book which will be released on election day. This means she has a vested interest of Obama winning worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can't believe they didn't replace her. Of course, she could moderate the debate fairly, it has yet to be seen. I actually doubt she will be biased, but her interests should have disqualified her IMO.

If that's the case, the correct thing to do is to disqualify oneself out of fairness.

[unreality]

I agree about the Dems playing safe and the spotlight on the Reps... and I didn't know that about the moderator. You would tihnk that at least someone in the political hierarchy would bring her book to attention, so it must've been considered and they made the decision that she was going to be unbiased. I guess we'll see how it turns out

[Guest]

We're having a "watch the debate" party at my house tonight. I think Sarah Palin will look like an idiot, but that doesnt mean that I wouldnt vote for McCain. I'm still undesided. and I agree with the Prof. about disqualifying the moderater. She can say anything she wants but how can someone be unbiased with that much of an invested interest?

[unreality]

Yeah I agree - unfortunately with the wishy-washy-ness of today's politicians, moderators play a bigger role in the debate than they should

[Brandonb]

So... I'm watching the debate...

1) Is it just me or is are these questions watered down? I think the recent spy glass on the moderator has left her... bland. They really should have disqualified her.

2) Biden is damn good at deflecting every single thing addressed to him as if it were addressed to Bush, without every actually answering anything himself.

3) Palin was crazy about stating that she now knows what the VP does she must've checked wikipedia in the past fews weeks.

4) The only thing I'm getting out of this debate is a clear illustration of one having the massive advantage in active-executive experience and the other having the massive advantage in keen-political experience. Not much more, not much less...

I think I wasted my time watching this.

[itachi-san]

Yeah, the debates have been disappointing. I actually think the moderator was totally fair though, which was good. Once again, I didn't hear anything new (except one thing) - I was really shocked to hear Biden say he was anti gay marriage and that Obama was as well. I thought that was a big Democratic ideal? Did anyone else find that surprising?

[Mekal]

I was really shocked to hear Biden say he was anti gay marriage and that Obama was as well. I thought that was a big Democratic ideal? Did anyone else find that surprising?

Hmm... So CP... you still going for obama?

Edited October 3, 2008 by Mekal

[unreality]

I thought both candidates' reasoning for anti-gay-marriage was horrible. What's wrong with it? Why are people so against that? So, they can't make babies. If someone thinks that's the point of marriage, they need to get in the modern world. The point today is love or happiness or responsibility or whatever, not churning out children and contributing to the world's overpopulation anyway... the better thing, if they were wealthier, would be to adopt. Much better for humanity anyway than a straight couple who are marrying to procreate in the name of the Bible lol. Who cares if the Bible says "a marriage should be between a man and a woman"? It's the freaking Bible!

Sorry, that just angers me.

lol, back to the debate, I actually think it was insightful. They actually answered more questions than I was expecting, and here's what I think:

* Not sure about the economy. I'm not an economist nor am I remotely knowledgeable in the inner workings of the economy, so I really can't judge here, either way

* As for the Iraq war, Palin definitely lost here. The Obama/Biden plan is sooo much better for America, Iraq, Afghanistan and the whole world than the McCain/Palin "plan"

[Guest]

Hmm... So CP... you still going for obama?

Hmm I knew I would be asked that. Yes I am. We all know what these debats are for... the general electorate, which I am not. I dont think most of us in here are.

The questions are watered down because the people of this country are watered down. Its not about what you say but how you look. Both sides made some mistakes

that the opposite party is going ride into the ground.

I thought the moderator was ok, just as past pro republican moderators were just ok.

As for the gay marriage issue, I am aware both Biden and Obama are against gay "marriage" but pro civil union. It bugs me as you can imagine. Call it marriage and

call the rescue a bail out, a tomato a tomatoe. Ahhh...sigh. Why should anyone have the right to say who I can marry and who I cant?

Its not what I can marry geesh.

I promise to never marry my dog. But if I could and I did, can he vote? I promise not to marry my kid, ewwwww but that is illegal if he is under age so that is a moot point.

Hmmm, what about marrying an iguana from mexico? Is that OK? We import them to sell at pet stores. No if I marry a reptile I want it to be canadian at least. Hey what

happened to the republicans wanting the government out of our homes? Or a smaller gov? How can we have a smaller government if we have all these crazy restrictions?

Oh yeah we could get a group of dedicated americans to enforce them out of the goodness of their hearts. Just like the Minute men. Or the Brown shirts of 1933 Germany.

Man did those boys do a great job, who could ever forget kristelnacht or the honorable way they warned the pure germanic people not to buy from the dirty jews by defacing

the shops?

I have no choice but to vote for Obama. His church, the united church of christ is pro gay marriage. Who knows what will happen. What if gays get to marry, will negros get

to marry aryans? BTW Caucasians come from the caucus mountains in Iran <where the origianal aryans come from> and its in asia! So I am white, does that make me Iranian?

Mongolian?

This country is becoming more facist each day. Our jails are being run by companies and not the gov. Our people cant protest w/o getting jailed or move to a spot far out of the

public eye. Notice how there is always some disaster about to happen? These are troubling times my friend. WAR, gas prices, 9/11, al quida, illegal immigrants, pay no

attention to the man behind the red white and blue curtain!

ahh I rant.....

Oh yes the bible, that book that was created in the 13th century, to weed out all the part that the council of nicea (sp?) didnt think should go into the hands of the priests to be

taught to the ignorant masses. Him so the book was written by god and edited by humans?

Its flippin mythology people. Joseph Smith found one too, then he lost it, then he found it, now only men can talk to god.....It is lunacy.

Edited October 3, 2008 by crazypainter

[itachi-san]

* Not sure about the economy. I'm not an economist nor am I remotely knowledgeable in the inner workings of the economy, so I really can't judge here, either way

* As for the Iraq war, Palin definitely lost here. The Obama/Biden plan is sooo much better for America, Iraq, Afghanistan and the whole world than the McCain/Palin "plan"

Yeah, that's where I split between the 2. I don't like Republicans Foreign policy and I don't like Democrats Domestic Policy. So either way I lose... <_<

[unreality]

So it comes down to what you value more... foreign or domestic affairs?

[Guest]

Unfortunately i only caught the last 15 minutes of the Presidential and the 1st 30 of the VP debates

Gotta say Obama impressed me

1) Unlike McCain, Obama gave McCain his attention when he was speaking.

2) McCain spent more time bashing Obama by saying that he is under qualified and that he has no idea what he is talking about than actually answering the questions that were directed to him.

3) Obama answered his questions fully, correcting (politely I might add) fallacious statements made by McCan

4) McCain seemed uptight, on the defensive, and nervous

whereas Obama seemed to be cool, calm, and collected.

Both VP candidates impressed me in the 1st half hour

!) They both gave each other mutual respect when the other was speaking.

2) They each gave the other credit where credit was due.

Bear in mind that this is what I observed during the times stated. I did discuss the Presidential debates with my uncle and he confirmed my observation for the Presidential debates

[itachi-san]

Actually, now I'm going to vote for a third party. I can't stand either of these 2 guys and I think the country will be pretty much the same no matter who wins. The only way to change things is for more and more people to keep voting for parties that aren't Rep or Dem. I think I'll just do that from now on. I'm really sick of these people. The only way we will get REAL change is to go to a 4 Party system like we were discussing earlier and voting is the only way to get there. I also like Bb's idea of no term-limits, but elections when an approval rating drops below a set limit. All that would set this country straight.

Edit: I removed the word 'probably' because I'm definite

[unreality]

Though it will be between these two, and from the Presidential debate, among other factors (even the VP debate) I'm definitely leaning towards Obama. I think he's the best candidate from our options, and unlike itachi I think that this election is very important and will determine the path of the USA for the next 4 years.... so IF I could vote lol, I would vote for Obama

[itachi-san]

Though it will be between these two, and from the Presidential debate, among other factors (even the VP debate) I'm definitely leaning towards Obama. I think he's the best candidate from our options, and unlike itachi I think that this election is very important and will determine the path of the USA for the next 4 years.... so IF I could vote lol, I would vote for Obama

What specifically will be different between the two of them? Also, I didn't say the election wasn't important. I'm saying I have no confidence in those candidates or the current system. I would agrue this is an important election to change our system, but everyone rushing to vote for McCain or Obama is just keeping the failed state alive.

[unreality]

I think the country will be pretty much the same no matter who wins.

^ I was just disagreeing with that

But about the differences between them, there are plenty. The Iraq war, for example. McCain wants to keep going and keep failing "cuz we're Americans". Obama has a smart, quick pullout plan that will also not leave the country in shambles ("withdraw our troops in a responsible way" like he just said on the debate lol). I agree with Obama there. As for the economy, I'm not an economist or anything, but there are definitely differences between their plans, key differences.

And you know I can't vote, I'm not rushing to vote for either. Obviously we need to change a lot more than just a president, I'm with you there. Hell, we need a revolution! If our Founding Fathers were alive today, they would declare a new country - something needs to be done. But right now, the focus is on Obama vs McCain, so the question is who will bring the change we need, the beginnings of the transformation you want. It's not going to happen overnight... so the best candidate for that, in my personal view, is Barack Obama

[Mekal]

One of the things that i noticed... is that the media and everyone got on President Bush on how he pronounced nuclear bomb. But I bet you guys a pan of PG's brownies that nobody will even mention Obama's pronunciation of Pakistan.

I like McCains forign policy, mainly because how do you think those famliys who lost members to the war feel if they died for a pointless cause? Obama plans to pull us out, and he says to look ahead to the future problems, but he forgot to look at the problem of withdraw. The middle east would be in ruins, and he would be a token of hatred among them. The Middle East would hate us for a long time...

[Guest]

^ I was just disagreeing with that

But about the differences between them, there are plenty. The Iraq war, for example. McCain wants to keep going and keep failing "cuz we're Americans". Obama has a smart, quick pullout plan that will also not leave the country in shambles ("withdraw our troops in a responsible way" like he just said on the debate lol). I agree with Obama there. As for the economy, I'm not an economist or anything, but there are definitely differences between their plans, key differences.

And you know I can't vote, I'm not rushing to vote for either. Obviously we need to change a lot more than just a president, I'm with you there. Hell, we need a revolution! If our Founding Fathers were alive today, they would declare a new country - something needs to be done. But right now, the focus is on Obama vs McCain, so the question is who will bring the change we need, the beginnings of the transformation you want. It's not going to happen overnight... so the best candidate for that, in my personal view, is Barack Obama

Many days I get depressed because I think that no one in this country thinks for themselves. They just watch the talking heads on Fox. I worry that the youth of our country are apathetic and dont have a clue.

Then I read this post by UnReality and my heart swells. I see hope. I agree with you Unreality, you make me proud. I agree we do need a revolution. What are we all willing to give up for that to happen?

I think it may be easier for me because I am living with in my means, even though they are very small. Hell, I am trying to get on disability so its not like I am that wealthy. I do own my home, 2br 1ba, and have a car, prius. But i could live with less. I do go to protests, volunteer with organizations, all I can. McCain scares the crap out of me. Hes so clueless, or being feed the wrong info. He listens to the elite and not the middle class.

I watched the debate tonight. McCain LIED so much!!! OMFG!!! They were easy to prove lies too. He looked horrible as well. I pray the public can get a clue before its too late.

Four years of McCain would be very bad.

Edited October 8, 2008 by crazypainter

[itachi-san]

But about the differences between them, there are plenty. The Iraq war, for example. McCain wants to keep going and keep failing "cuz we're Americans". Obama has a smart, quick pullout plan that will also not leave the country in shambles ("withdraw our troops in a responsible way" like he just said on the debate lol). I agree with Obama there. As for the economy, I'm not an economist or anything, but there are definitely differences between their plans, key differences.

They both will gradually pull troops out of Iraq and put them in Afghanistan, in fact, it's already happening. As for the economy they do a lot of talking, but what money are they going to use? Also, the President doesn't decide these things. Congress does, so whatever plan each of them proposes will get modified to the point that it won't matter which one of them wrote it.

But right now, the focus is on Obama vs McCain, so the question is who will bring the change we need, the beginnings of the transformation you want. It's not going to happen overnight... so the best candidate for that, in my personal view, is Barack Obama

This is exactly the problem. It's a system of thinking that has been instilled in us that we must vote for one or the other and not recognize candidates who are are not supported by the wealthy. If we continue down this cycle we will never break out of this pattern.

[Guest]

This is exactly the problem. It's a system of thinking that has been instilled in us that we must vote for one or the other and not recognize candidates who are are not supported by the wealthy. If we continue down this cycle we will never break out of this pattern.

There is a general feeling of hopelessness. There are always different parties with their candidates on the ballot. I would vote for some of the others but I feel like I would be throwing my vote away. Nader.....dgms

[unreality]

They both will gradually pull troops out of Iraq and put them in Afghanistan, in fact, it's already happening.

Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever. It's still overseas, it's still dangerous, and it's still pointless. We're wasting American lives for the Middle Easterners that don't even want us there. But that's just my personal opinion... obviously everyone in every group has opposing views on this (even within the military, or maybe most strongly so there). I'm just saying that Obama has a timetabled pullout plan, while McCain wants to stay indefinitely until we "win". Does anybody think that's actually possible? What does "win" mean anybody? Who defines win? After the Iraq War is over, there will still be terrorism in the world, there will still be hatred against the US in the Middle East. Terrorism doesn't follow the "chop off the snake's head" analogy - it's more like a hydra than a snake - if you chop off a hydra's head, two more grow in its place.

And to Mekal's comment, about the families who have lost relatives in Iraq - this is exactly what I mean! More so than wanting their relative's sacrifice to be for something (an impossible "victory") than they want other people to not befall the same fate as their relative in a futile quest in a desert that soaks up our money and replies with decreasing oil and increasing hatred.

As for the economy they do a lot of talking, but what money are they going to use? Also, the President doesn't decide these things. Congress does, so whatever plan each of them proposes will get modified to the point that it won't matter which one of them wrote it.

Good point, but right now the Congress is Democratic, right? With Obama in office, a lot more reforms will be passed by Congress than with a Rebublican president (ie, McCain). There's one of the fundamental differences and why I think Obama is better in the economic regard, though of course I don't have much knowledge in that domain. You, Brandonb and Dawh seem to be pretty knowledgeable in that area

This is exactly the problem. It's a system of thinking that has been instilled in us that we must vote for one or the other and not recognize candidates who are are not supported by the wealthy. If we continue down this cycle we will never break out of this pattern.

What other candidates are there? I didn't even know there was others, lol - all I've heard is McCain/Obama, Biden/Palin, etc. What other parties are there? Cuz we need more big parties, that's for sure. I didn't know there were others - if there are, I'll have to re-look at the situation, and I think I'd agree with you about voting indendepent

if only there was an Atheist or Secularist party or something

[itachi-san]

Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever. It's still overseas, it's still dangerous, and it's still pointless. We're wasting American lives for the Middle Easterners that don't even want us there. But that's just my personal opinion... obviously everyone in every group has opposing views on this (even within the military, or maybe most strongly so there). I'm just saying that Obama has a timetabled pullout plan, while McCain wants to stay indefinitely until we "win". Does anybody think that's actually possible? What does "win" mean anybody? Who defines win? After the Iraq War is over, there will still be terrorism in the world, there will still be hatred against the US in the Middle East. Terrorism doesn't follow the "chop off the snake's head" analogy - it's more like a hydra than a snake - if you chop off a hydra's head, two more grow in its place.

I totally agree that terrorism will never go away and that it's futile to expect that. 'Winning' would be leaving and having Iraq be stable enough to run itself. FYI Obama's pullout is from just Iraq, he wants to send MORE troops to Afghanistan than we have there now. Essentially both candidates will do the same thing in the Middle East as far as I see it. Obama has a time-table of 16 months for the Iraq War, sure. But he will not pull out completely if Iran is threatening Iraq and will take over the next day after we leave. I guarantee Obama's 16 Months is going to be very flexible. He's just saying that to look different. It would be unethical to leave the Iraqi people to the wolves if that were the case after 16 months. And that's just for Iraq. Like I said, he wants to boost our war in Afghanistan. I don't see a real difference between them concerning the Middle East.

but right now the Congress is Democratic, right? With Obama in office, a lot more reforms will be passed by Congress than with a Rebublican president (ie, McCain).

right, congress is Dem, they have been screwing us over to make Bush look as bad as possible and of course for their own interests as usual. Once Obama gets in, they'll do some of the things they should have been doing and the economy will benefit. It's all a Congress ploy and I don't trust any of them really, especially the Senate. There are a few good Governors and a few good House reps, but I don't think there is even one Senator worth anything. Congress is really just awful.

I would actually like to start a 'revolution' as you put it, but a different idea. Everyone should vote out their Senators no matter who they are. Just change the whole Senate a.s.a.p. That will put a fire under the new guys to actually do the right things. And they need to remove the vote of 'present'. They're elected to make decisions, so they should make a decision.

What other candidates are there? I didn't even know there was others, lol - all I've heard is McCain/Obama, Biden/Palin, etc. What other parties are there? Cuz we need more big parties, that's for sure. I didn't know there were others - if there are, I'll have to re-look at the situation, and I think I'd agree with you about voting indendepent

yeah, this is just it. nobody talks about them, like they don't even exist. it's like everyone is brainwashed into thinking there are just 2 choices. There are actually a lot of choices. I'm not sure who I'm going to vote for yet (not McCain or Obama), I have to look into the Parties some more. I like the Constitutionalists Party from what I've read and heard so far. There are actually lots of Parties. Nader is Independent, so I won't vote for him, though I do think he's way better than Obama or McCain, but I'd like for there to someday be new Parties, and I don't think voting Independent is getting there. I could be wrong on that, but I don't think it's a Party. Either way, it's not like anyone I vote for is going to get elected, but if I keep doing it and get more people to do so, eventually we can hit the 5% vote benchmark to get new Parties recognized.

I realize that the President is going to be Rep/Dem for a while because our country is really stuck on the 2 party deal, but it would be nice to see more Congressmen get elected from all sorts of Parties.

[unreality]

I agree - when I hit voting age, I'll look around at all the options

Oh, and by revolution, I meant an actual overthrow of our current system of government. It may have worked in the 17th century, but after centuries of amendments, loopholes, scandals, bills and 'reforms', the entire original idea of the Founding Fathers has been lost in the endless pages of twisted law and government practices, like a perfectly wound watch that's been tweaked out of sync and will run itself down to a jarring end eventually - better peacefully than a complete upturn. We need more than just changing the faces in the senate... we need to "retune the watch", reassess the current world, and start over