[Brandonb]

Billy is racing in the Olympic 400m dash and is in last place (8th). Billy overtakes everyone in the race, except for the guy in third place. What place is Billy in now? why?

[bonanova]

You're not quoting the OP. It's not really "like [you] said."

Runners who have finished a race are not taken out of the race.

If you don't see that, try this one....

Go back a few years and bet $1,000,000 on Secretariat in the 4th race.

[He was a great race horse, if you're young.]

He wins the 4th, of course - he places 1st - by seven lengths.

After the race, you go to the window to collect your $2,500,000 prize.

But they tell you: No Way! Secretariat didn't win the 4th race. How could he have won?

He isn't even in the 4th race!

Sorry, Charlie. Yah, that makes sense.

4th place is a difficult solution to find, but not because the solvers have not been logical.

Just to give it one more shot: if #1 and #2 weren't in the race, then how did "#3" not win?

And if they were in the race, how did Billy not pass them?

Not to call you out on this ... your other puzzles have been pretty good.

But in this case, believe it: Vox Populi Vox Dei.

[Brandonb]

So go back a few years and bet $1,000,000 on Secretariat.

He wins, of course - he places 1st.

After the race, you go to the window to collect your $2,500,000 prize.

But they tell you: No Way! How could Secretariat have won?

He wasn't even in the race!

Sorry, Charlie. Yah, that makes sense.... Right inside the box?

Your solution to the OP was difficult to find, but not because it was a logical challenge.

Vox Populi Vox Dei.

Sorry, but that's wrong, you said "He wasn't even in the race!" not "He isn't even in the race!" Obviously, he WAS in the race because he won the race (satisfying the OP). But he IS not in the race now when you are trying to collect your money, because he has finished the race. Yes, inside the box.

Again, the only scenario that is possible, is if:

Billy (last place) catches up to 4th place, and 3rd place is in front of him, and 1st&2nd have finished the race (Finished-End-Over-not racing-not in the race anymore) So #3 could not win, because 1st&2nd have already locked in their finished standings. It's a normal race here.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Brandonb

[Guest]

Does this mean that he overtook everyone while they were still in the race, i.e. during the race?

Yes, that is the accurate interpretation of hint #2.

The flaw I find is located here. Billy did not overtake the 1st and 2nd place people during the race, as you led us to believe in this statement. To rationalize this for me, explain how and when he passed the 1st and 2nd place people during the race if they were already finished. I understand the angle you wanted me to work when I said that he passed a number of people after the race was over, as I stated in post #14, but you threw us off when you stated that he passed everyone except the guy in 3rd during the race. The assumption then became that all participants were overtaken while the race was still going on. Furthermore, if 1st and 2nd were finished, they were no longer in the race, making the statement untrue that he passed everyone during the race, unless they were on the sidelines taking more steroids when Billy passed them.

[Brandonb]

The flaw I find is located here. Billy did not overtake the 1st and 2nd place people during the race, as you led us to believe in this statement. To rationalize this for me, explain how and when he passed the 1st and 2nd place people during the race if they were already finished. I understand the angle you wanted me to work when I said that he passed a number of people after the race was over, as I stated in post #14, but you threw us off when you stated that he passed everyone except the guy in 3rd during the race. The assumption then became that all participants were overtaken while the race was still going on. Furthermore, if 1st and 2nd were finished, they were no longer in the race, making the statement untrue that he passed everyone during the race, unless they were on the sidelines taking more steroids when Billy passed them.

Exactly, he did not overtake 1st and 2nd during the race, he never overtakes them at all. It is written in the present tense for a reason. The OP is taken from the event as it is happening.

(We must have had a misunderstanding on post #14, it makes no difference if he passed them after they had finished, the race would be over for billy at the point that he crossed the finish line and therefore irrelevant.)

Exactly, "The assumption then became that all participants were overtaken while the race was still going on." Is exactly the right assumption. So, if he never made it past third, yet he passed everyone in the race, then 1st and 2nd could no longer be participants. I never said that he passed everyone during the race, I said he passed everyone in the race, that's the catch.

Again, think of the "as it's happening" situation: (this is not the OP, just the interpretation)

Billy is in last, Billy passes everyone in the race except for 1st 2nd and 3rd. Then 1st and 2nd cross the finish line (they are done and no longer in the race). Now, take a photo. *Billy has passed everyone in the race except for the guy in 3rd.* The OP works this way, and no other way.

[Guest]

Billy is racing in the Olympic 400m dash and is in last place (8th). Billy overtakes everyone in the race, except for the guy in third place. What place is Billy in now? why?

Don't know if this is solved

A few people are arguing so here goes nothing

8th - that's where the op says he is in now

he passes them on a staggered start equals 8th place with a tie on fourth (draws go to lowest denomination except first - tie for second - two bronze medals not two silver)

the track race was finnished and billy raced them home - but this does not really work, they are not on the track and would not be called by there places any more, unless they meant the place they lived - no not buyibg that either!

gonna go with flawed puzzle

takes to long to read the other posts and hints - perhaps we need edit facilities for all

[Guest]

Joke is that no one wanted to state the obvious 4th.

So first and second are 'no longer running' .... but you say the race continues, therefore there places exist - just that they passed the line?

1st place guy should be doing a lap of honnor - it was nearly a good puzzle 99%