[itachi-san]

Here are the conditions of a new virtual reality game:

1) In order to play you must have the game installed into your brain (don't worry how it works, it's besides the point. It's not a placebo. And there are no visual signs that the game is installed.)

2) In order to start you must be sitting in a specified and unique place (assume a certain chair in your living room, or where ever you want. It is a place that is entered into the game's memory prior to installation and thus recognizes.)

3) Once seated say 'begin virtual world' and you enter the virtual game

4) The virtual game mirrors the real world exactly

5) The only way to end the game is to return to the specified and unique place, sit down and say 'end virtual world'

Here is my question (feel free to come up with your own questions as well)

Can you ever be certain that you are in the game or that you have exited the game?

[Guest]

The mind is just crazy sometimes. But to use lucid dreaming as a platform and Matrix as well because one could argue that although the story for Matrix is not the same, the basic concept could be based on lucid dreaming. Where in your mind given ques could trigger (subconsious or otherwise) the knowledge of the difference between the two. Just as in people 'in' the Matrix (some of them) had an unknown knowledge that something wasn't right.

Then you factor in the rule that it is a mirror identical replica; but as in lucid dreams and the matrix one can over come the 'virtual' limitations of those controls and you could in essence starting doing things that were otherwise impossible.

[itachi-san]

Question, if it perfectly mirrors the real world exactly. Does that mean a reversal (mirror) of all visual perceptions as compared with the real world, or that it creates a perfect facsimile of the real world? Also, when you are in the virtual world, do you remain sitting in the same spot, or do you actually get up and walk around in the real world while you participate in the virtual world?

Assuming that the game works, as stated in the rules, then yes. If you have sat in the "specified and unique place" and said "end virtual world" then it is safe to assume that you are no longer in the virtual world. If need be just repeat the phrase a few times.

1)Mirrored means exact replica in this case, if everything were reversed then this wouldn't require much thought...

2)You can remain seated if you want, but what fun is that? You can experience Virtual World as thoroughly as reality.

3)For your answer of yes, you claim that by saying 'end Virtual World' while seated in the designated spot will safely assume you are out. Maybe you can safely assume this, maybe not, but the OP asks whether or not you can be certain.

[itachi-san]

The mind is just crazy sometimes. But to use lucid dreaming as a platform and Matrix as well because one could argue that although the story for Matrix is not the same, the basic concept could be based on lucid dreaming. Where in your mind given ques could trigger (subconsious or otherwise) the knowledge of the difference between the two. Just as in people 'in' the Matrix (some of them) had an unknown knowledge that something wasn't right.

Then you factor in the rule that it is a mirror identical replica; but as in lucid dreams and the matrix one can over come the 'virtual' limitations of those controls and you could in essence starting doing things that were otherwise impossible.

This logic only follows suit with the Matrix and dreaming though. In Virtual World you wouldn't be able to fly like Neo because you can't do that in reality. The 'limitations' of Virtual World are identical to reality's limitations.

[Brandonb]

Lets say I'm the user, does the virtual world act towards me in a perfectly identical and simultaneous manner that the real world does? Ex. If I called for a pizza in the real world, and then entered the virtual world, would the pizza guy (a completely unaware and unaffected third party) still deliver the pizza in my virtual reality? And would he interact with me in the exact same way at the exact same time that my body is up and interacting with him in the real world?

If I enter the virtual world, does my body remain seated in the real world? Or does it get up and walk around and interact with the virtual world exactly as I am up and walking around and interacting with the virtual world?

[itachi-san]

Lets say I'm the user, does the virtual world act towards me in a perfectly identical and simultaneous manner that the real world does? Ex. If I called for a pizza in the real world, and then entered the virtual world, would the pizza guy (a completely unaware and unaffected third party) still deliver the pizza in my virtual reality? And would he interact with me in the exact same way at the exact same time that my body is up and interacting with him in the real world?

If I enter the virtual world, does my body remain seated in the real world? Or does it get up and walk around and interact with the virtual world exactly as I am up and walking around and interacting with the virtual world?

I think you've got something with your first example. Set something up to happen after you enter Virtual World. If it happens, then you never entered. If it doesn't, then you are in. And conversely, if you in Virtual World you can do the same to prove whether or not you got out. This answer is only applicable if attempted before ever starting the game for the first time though. It cannot prove where you are if are already lost trying to go back and forth or deeper and deeper.

Excellent answer!

[Brandonb]

I think you've got something with your first example. Set something up to happen after you enter Virtual World. If it happens, then you never entered. If it doesn't, then you are in. And conversely, if you in Virtual World you can do the same to prove whether or not you got out. This answer is only applicable if attempted before ever starting the game for the first time though. It cannot prove where you are if are already lost trying to go back and forth or deeper and deeper.

Excellent answer!

Thank you!

[Guest]

This logic only follows suit with the Matrix and dreaming though. In Virtual World you wouldn't be able to fly like Neo because you can't do that in reality. The 'limitations' of Virtual World are identical to reality's limitations.

But it is not real, it may look real, and smell real, but it is still just Virtual. And while bound by the laws of the real they are not actual "restraints" and even if in a virtual world you could not your mind would question it (at least I think (hope) mine would).

Or maybe this? Remember the first time as a child you rode a roller coster or went to a water park? Then you went back, and it was the same yet very different. Because that luster of something 'unknown' and a first time experience your senses are heightened and you are soaking the experience up; yet after you have done something before it looses that 'first time' luster. Kind of like why time seems to go by faster the older you get. The same yet different paradox, and your mind and body knows it.

I guess really it would depend on two things, the power of the mind involved and how advance and truly realistic world is that is running parallel in your brain. Because if something is that 'real' and realisitic this would truly be a scary thought that something like this could even be a question!

[Guest]

I think you've got something with your first example. Set something up to happen after you enter Virtual World. If it happens, then you never entered. If it doesn't, then you are in. And conversely, if you in Virtual World you can do the same to prove whether or not you got out. This answer is only applicable if attempted before ever starting the game for the first time though. It cannot prove where you are if are already lost trying to go back and forth or deeper and deeper.

Excellent answer!

I'll play devil's advocate - if the two world's are identical, then won't doing something in the real world still have the same thing happen in the virtual world? What about an alarm clock? I set my real world alarm clock for say 5:00 am, will the virtual alarm clock have to also be set, or will it go off at same time as in real world? If the first holds true, then you can say the real and virtual worlds are FAR from identical and use a number of indicators to tell what world you're in. If the second is true, then pizza is coming if you're in real and go into virtual. It should be a lot easier to tell if you're originally in virtual (i.e. in virtual, I can go buy a unique animal at pet store, kill it, and find it alive in real world. Converse is not true, however).

A bug just flew up my nose and it really sucked.

[itachi-san]

I'll play devil's advocate - if the two world's are identical, then won't doing something in the real world still have the same thing happen in the virtual world? What about an alarm clock? I set my real world alarm clock for say 5:00 am, will the virtual alarm clock have to also be set, or will it go off at same time as in real world? If the first holds true, then you can say the real and virtual worlds are FAR from identical and use a number of indicators to tell what world you're in. If the second is true, then pizza is coming if you're in real and go into virtual. It should be a lot easier to tell if you're originally in virtual (i.e. in virtual, I can go buy a unique animal at pet store, kill it, and find it alive in real world. Converse is not true, however).

A bug just flew up my nose and it really sucked.

I've been thinking about this as well, minus the bug up my nose. I was thinking that this would be impossible, but then again, so is Virtual World (at least for quite a few years). It actually may make more sense for the pizza to arrive in Virtual World if you ordered it before you entered the game because the game is an exact replica of the real world, therefore every loose end should get tied up or at least remain in Virtual World. If you set your alarm clock for 5 am, entered virtual world at 4 am, then the alarm should sound at 5 am in virtual thus bringing us back to the drawing board of figuring out where we are. Nice one Neal, tonight I'm gonna dream about dreaming in a virtual world within virtual world.

[Guest]

Here are the conditions of a new virtual reality game:

1) In order to play you must have the game installed into your brain (don't worry how it works, it's besides the point. It's not a placebo. And there are no visual signs that the game is installed.)

2) In order to start you must be sitting in a specified and unique place (assume a certain chair in your living room, or where ever you want. It is a place that is entered into the game's memory prior to installation and thus recognizes.)

3) Once seated say 'begin virtual world' and you enter the virtual game

4) The virtual game mirrors the real world exactly

5) The only way to end the game is to return to the specified and unique place, sit down and say 'end virtual world'

Here is my question (feel free to come up with your own questions as well)

Can you ever be certain that you are in the game or that you have exited the game?

[Guest]

If the game works.Just say the words and your out.Thats no fun.How about trying to create life in both worlds.

[Guest]

Of course you can be certain. In one of two ways:

1. Never install the Virtual World in the first place.

2. If this is impossible, just make sure that you never say the words "Enter Virtual World". Ever.

Then you're certain to be in the real world at all times! Simple.

NEXT!!

[itachi-san]

Of course you can be certain. In one of two ways:

1. Never install the Virtual World in the first place.

2. If this is impossible, just make sure that you never say the words "Enter Virtual World". Ever.

Then you're certain to be in the real world at all times! Simple.

NEXT!!

Well, you didn't answer either question I posed... Read the OP more carefully. Can you ever be certain you are in the game or that you have exited the game?

[Guest]

I've been thinking about this as well, minus the bug up my nose. I was thinking that this would be impossible, but then again, so is Virtual World (at least for quite a few years). It actually may make more sense for the pizza to arrive in Virtual World if you ordered it before you entered the game because the game is an exact replica of the real world, therefore every loose end should get tied up or at least remain in Virtual World. If you set your alarm clock for 5 am, entered virtual world at 4 am, then the alarm should sound at 5 am in virtual thus bringing us back to the drawing board of figuring out where we are. Nice one Neal, tonight I'm gonna dream about dreaming in a virtual world within virtual world.

my original answer was based on the presupposition that your body would remain seated in the real world while your virtual self wandered. if however the real and virtual world mirror each other in every way, then there would be no way to tell which world you were in. your real body would act as a puppet while you were in virtual world and vice versa. so if you were somehow stuck in virtual world, your real mind(which is in virtual world acting on your virtual body) would be puppeteering your real body. and even if there were nested VRs within each other, it would make no difference whether or not your real mind were stuck within a VR within a VR within a VR. the same output would be produced. your mental actions in virtual world 2, 3 or 999 would still produce the same actions on your body in the real world and therefore produce the same results in the real world. your body would only be a vessel.

i think the consequences in which the real body remains seated while you are in VR produce many more questions. like the matrix but different in that you can't break the physical rules of the real world. in this case, all of your actions in the virtual world would have no effect in the real world. your body would start to rot and your real world relationships would break if you spent too much time in the virtual world. but, you could create so many different scenarios and really explore each side of yourself as you created nested virtual worlds within each other. and if each virtual world were fixed so that your virtual identity and actions remained in their histories whether you went forwards or backwards into them, then you could pick your channel everytime you decided to enter virtual world. you might have trouble keeping track of your identities and your storylines, and you might get sucked into your virtual lives, but how would it be any worse than other ways of spending your time?

[Guest]

Seems to me there are two possibilities:

1) While you are in VR your real body just sits there drooling in the chair, while you get up and have fun in VR. In which case you would know you were in VR because after about 24 hours you would be so hungry in real life you would start to get dizzy, so you need to just exit the simulation before you pass out.

2) While you are in VR your real body does all the same things as your virtual body, and since the two worlds remain identical there is no possible distinction. In this case, what you are experiencing is reality. The game does nothing and has no effect on your brain at all.

Of course if you want to be really sure, just kill yourself. Then you've definitely exited the game

[unreality]

so what would happen if you died in VR? I know all physical changes are obviously reverted when you go back, because your real life body was just sitting in a chair (assuming you did enter VR in the first place), so what would happen if you killed yourself in VR? Would you wake up from the VR instantly? Would you be stuck forever in emptiness, unable to get out? Would you experience death in VR, and so simulate death in the real world? Would your real life mind shut down too?

[itachi-san]

Seems to me there are two possibilities:

1) While you are in VR your real body just sits there drooling in the chair, while you get up and have fun in VR. In which case you would know you were in VR because after about 24 hours you would be so hungry in real life you would start to get dizzy, so you need to just exit the simulation before you pass out.

Adding to this idea, think of a dream. So much happens in so little time. Therefore (though the OP does not mention this of course) we cannot assume time would progress proportionally with reality. Perhaps what feels like a day in Virtual World is a minute in reality. Then hunger pangs, bathroom needs, etc... may never play a part in discovering your whereabouts. There have been times (mostly sitting at a desk in a lecture) when I've nodded off for only a few seconds, if that, and had a vivid and developed dream. -this is a really strange feeling btw.

[Guest]

Seems interesting, but I'm still confused.

Don't know if it already posted or not since I didn't read the entire thread.

My question is -Whether I lose my memory when I travel from one world to other?

If not, I can always remember whether I told "begin virtual world" or "end virtual world" the last time.

With those phrases in mind, I can easily tell in which world I am.

What do you say?

[Guest]

The only way to tell is to go to the spot and say end vr. You will be sure that it ended. Or you could mess with the VD and make it into your own world:)

Anywho...Just go to the guy who installed the chip and ask him what world your in.

In my opinion i would alter my virtual world to my liking...like a movie or a video game world

[Guest]

Ok I think I got this one, and I'm surprised nobody else did yet.

Ok, we have to assume that while we are in the Virtual Reality that our body is left sitting in the chair. If not, then there would be absolutely no difference between reality and virtual (ie: If I eat a steak in VR then in RL I also eat a steak). A situation like that could easily be thought of as putting on a pair of non prescription glasses. You're now looking at a 'virtual' world that exactly replicates everything in the real world.

(assuming your RL body doesn't follow actions you make while in VR) Simply make some sort of marking on your surroundings (chalk, scratch the floor, break the urn with your fathers ashes in it, etc.) and then sit in the chair. Say the magic "There's no place like home" phrase, and watch. If your change to the surroundings disappeared, then voila you were in VR, and now you're in RL. If your fathers ashes are still spilled on the floor, then you either you never left RL, or you're stuck in VR. There isn't any way to know whether or not you entered VR, for the simple given (from the OP) that VR perfectly mirrors RL. As soon as you enter VR it would be the exact same as how you left RL.

I should start re-selling non-prescription glasses as "Virtual Reality Machines: Exactly replicates the real world!"

VR=Virtual Reality

RL=Real Life

[Guest]

I've been wondering, what if ur mom or dad was stuck in the virtual world and thought that if that was the real world and "made you" in the VR? And if the VR is exactly the same as RL, then if you keep on saying Enter virtual world, then you'd be stuck in the VR's VR's VR's VR's VR's VR. This is really interesting.

[Guest]

So 20 years from now when they come out with an experimental "VR" with a drug that can send you back to birth to re-live your life again.. will you think that this maybe has happened before and thats why you've had deja vu all these years? Would you do it? Would you live again without memory of everything that you know? That funny feeling that this has all happened before would serve a better purpose if you came to realize that this has.. actually all happened before.