UN Mafia II

[Hirkala]

Hooded Figure: Araver

1. Molly Mae - ABSTAIN

2. Hirkala - ABSTAIN

3. maurice - Lynched and found to beChina

4. Thalia

5. curr3nt - arrested by Sweden - cannot vote, post or be voted during D3.

6. Framm - Killed by the Secret Alliance

7. Shadow7 - ABSTAIN

8. solman

9. golfjunkie

10. Marq

11. Vineetrika - Lynched and found to be Australia

@MM:

@S7: Mostly?

@Everyone else: Now see? Both Baddies have followed the plan. Curr3nt kinda whimpered away under a rock there, but hey! No one died and if everyone follows the plan, this could potentially end today!

[Thalia]

Hooded Figure: Araver

1. Molly Mae - ABSTAIN

2. Hirkala - ABSTAIN

3. maurice - Lynched and found to beChina

4. Thalia - ABSTAIN

5. curr3nt - arrested by Sweden - cannot vote, post or be voted during D3.

6. Framm - Killed by the Secret Alliance

7. Shadow7 - ABSTAIN

8. solman

9. golfjunkie

10. Marq

11. Vineetrika - Lynched and found to be Australia

[Guest]

Hooded Figure: Araver

1. Molly Mae - ABSTAIN

2. Hirkala - ABSTAIN

3. maurice - Lynched and found to beChina

4. Thalia - ABSTAIN

5. curr3nt - arrested by Sweden - cannot vote, post or be voted during D3.

6. Framm - Killed by the Secret Alliance

7. Shadow7 - ABSTAIN

8. solman

9. golfjunkie

10. Marq - ABSTAIN

11. Vineetrika - Lynched and found to be Australia

In true sportmanly conduct...it is bad form to strike when a flag of truce is flown...

[Guest]

Mostly meaning I reserve the right to change if someone goes against the truce.

[Guest]

Hooded Figure: Araver

1. Molly Mae - ABSTAIN

2. Hirkala - ABSTAIN

3. maurice - Lynched and found to beChina

4. Thalia - ABSTAIN

5. curr3nt - arrested by Sweden - cannot vote, post or be voted during D3.

6. Framm - Killed by the Secret Alliance

7. Shadow7 - ABSTAIN

8. solman

9. golfjunkie - ABSTAIN

10. Marq - ABSTAIN

11. Vineetrika - Lynched and found to be Australia

seems cheap to end it this way with everyone friends... and strangely suspicious too. What does Hirk gain by doing this?

[Guest]

Hooded Figure: Araver

1. Molly Mae - ABSTAIN

2. Hirkala - ABSTAIN

3. maurice - Lynched and found to beChina

4. Thalia - ABSTAIN

5. curr3nt - arrested by Sweden - cannot vote, post or be voted during D3.

6. Framm - Killed by the Secret Alliance

7. Shadow7 - ABSTAIN

8. solman - ABSTAIN

9. golfjunkie - ABSTAIN

10. Marq - ABSTAIN

11. Vineetrika - Lynched and found to be Australia

If we're all going to be so friendly, can we lynch the hooded figure?

[Guest]

If we're all going to be so friendly, can we lynch the hooded figure?

I like that thought....but I'm not changing anything yet

[araver]

Act 6

~~~~~~~~~~

The Hooded Figure had been a little surprised to the turn the discussions had taken in the bar that night. He had already confirmed to two delegates that their plans might work, and he knew that there were only two possible outcomes for the day ... He summoned the fallen delegates in the Purgatory and asked their opinion as well. Satisfied, he went back to his popcorn. "A mass-abstain it will be, if they really want that. They are hurting themselves."

~~~~~~~~~~

The curr3nt Swede was watching the others from afar, through a device that the Hooded Figure had provided. He had made his own arrangements for the day and was planning fall-back strategies if the day would not go as planned ... little did he suspect...

~~~~~~~~~~

The Hirkamerican had abstained from using his skills at night. He was suddlenly seeing peace as a possible option ... he should have known better ...

~~~~~~~~~~

The Germany GolfJunkie had not even tried to guess this night. It would have been in vain ... he should have done it in the first nights ...

~~~~~~~~~~

The Russian Marquessa despite being redirected, had managed to tag two baddies at night ... she was looking forward to a peaceful end of the game ... rightly so ...

~~~~~~~~~~

El Sol of Spain had managed to fool them twice as well ... he never risked more than he had to ... and was also free to look forward to the future ...

~~~~~~~~~~

The English Thalia had finished packing and smiled ... she had done what was expected of her ... some mysteries did remain ... but all in all, that was a pleasant experience ... albeit short ...

~~~~~~~~~~

Iran and Argentina chuckled all the way ... no one had figured it out, yet. It was their right to leave, yes, their lost camarade had paved their way. But to fool the others in the open like this, this was something, really something.

~~~~~~~~~~

The Hooded Figure summoned all of them in the central room. They each came, one by one, ready to go, hopes up. "Ladies and gentlemen, today was rather ... unexpected. Still, I had my share of people who did not read the rules nor asked about them, so it wasn't completely unexpected."

Some exchanged glances, not sure what this long introduction meant for their situation.

"As you have asked, abstaining is not punishable. But letting your opponents leave is. To be precise, eliminating all the other players never ever covered letting them go live happily ever after on a tropical island. I'm quite surprised you thought that. Or never bothered to ask. I even thought you were gonna slow-play it and flash-vote at the end..." the Hooded Figure looked at USA and Germany. "... but I was wrong. You did this to yourselves."

~~~~~~~~~~

"Congratulations, Molly and Shadow, you have managed to fool them and both of you earned your leave. You know the ending already, so you are free to go ... "and the Hooded Figure motioned and transported both of the members of the Secret Alliance to the promised tropical island. All theirs for the future.

~~~~~~~~~~

"Thalia, you are also free to go right this moment. Also, two more of you will be able to join Thalia soon enough, as you have both finished their jobs.

The rest of you, I'm disappointed with! Your jobs can never be completed now.", the Hooded Figure motioned again.

~~~~~~~~~~

End of the Game !!

~~~~~~~~~~

Final Roster:

1. MollyMae - Argentina - Left after D3 - WON

2. Hirkala - USA - Trapped in-game - LOST

3. maurice - China - Lynched D2 - LOST

4. Thalia - England - Left after D3 - WON

5. curr3nt - Sweden - chose to side with UN Alliance - Trapped in-game - LOST

6. Framm - Israel - Killed N2 - LOST

7. Shadow7 - Iran - Left after D3 - WON

8. solman - Spain - Left after D4 - WON

9. golfjunkie - Germany - Trapped in-game - LOST

10. Marq - Russia - Left after D4 - WON

11. Vineetrika - Australia - Lynched D1 - LOST

No clear MVP Award: 1/2 goes to Yuli for final operation, 1/2 goes to Maurice for paving the way for the final operation.

Thank you all for playing!

Actions and Secret WinCon's

Secret Indy WinCon:

Has to choose first night:

1) Choose to side with the Secret Alliance. Will be told their names, but will not gain BTSC. Can leave the game after trapping either USA or Israel.

2) Choose to side with the UN Alliance. Will be told the results of Australia's spies. Can leave the game after trapping either China or Iran.

3) Chooose to remain Independent. Can leave the game after trapping BOTH China and USA.

Choice will not be shown in the night-post.

Actions:

Night 1:

Baddies

MollyMae - Argentina - spy curr3nt - failed

maurice - China - Intercept and read Spain's message to Germany - failed

Shadow7 - Iran - Rolled a 3 - Spy Marq - Marq is Russia

NK (Molly) - kill curr3nt - failed

Indy:

curr3nt - Sweden - chose to side with UN Alliance. Arrest Solman - worked. Solman is UN Alliance.

Is told Australia's trap (but not England's trap) results - Molly is Spain

Goodies:

Hirkala - USA - no action (power outage IRL). Molly is Spain

Thalia - England - no action

Framm - Israel - Redirect Marq to Maurice

solman - Spain - Send Sweden: "I (Spain) am Thalia. Don't imprison me." Failed (arrested)

golfjunkie - Germany - save Hirkala - not needed

Marq - Russia - Spy Hirkala - Hirkala is China (redirected spy)

Vineetrika - Australia - trap Molly - Molly is Spain

Night 2:

Baddies:

MollyMae - Argentina - spy Thalia - Thalia is England

maurice - China - Intercept and read Spain's message to England - failed

Shadow7 - Iran - Rolled a 4 - RID Kill Hirk as USA - failed /target was arrested

NK (Shadow) - kill Framm - worked

UN Alliance:

curr3nt - Sweden - Arrest Hirkala - worked. Hirkala is UN Alliance.

Hirkala - USA - RID Molly as Argentina - failed because of being arrested.

Thalia - England - Trap Marq

Framm - Israel - Passed action to get day redirect. DEAD.

solman - Spain - Send China: "Thalia is Spain." Message transmitted successfully.

golfjunkie - Germany - save Hirkala - not needed (would not have worked against a RID Kill anyway).

Marq - Russia - Spy Shadow - trapped

Night 3:

Baddies:

MollyMae - Argentina - Leave

Shadow7 - Iran - Rolled a 4-RID Kill - Leave

NK: Forfeited

UN Alliance:

curr3nt - Sweden - Arrest curr3nt - worked.

Hirkala - USA - No action

Thalia - England - Leave

solman - Spain - Send Germany: "be wary of curr3nt's WINCON". Message transmitted successfully.

golfjunkie - Germany - No action.

Marq - Russia - Spy Shadow - Shadow is Iran.

Explanation for leaving

Already submitted a leave action and leave after D3:

Iran/Shadow can leave - Israel is dead.

Argentina/Molly can leave - He spied Thalia/England in N2.

England/Thalia can leave - Aus is dead and she has used one ability in N2.

Also can leave:

Russia/Marq can leave in N4/D4 - she was redirected to spy a baddie in N1 (1 tag) + spying Shadow in N3 (2nd tag).

Spain/Solman can leave in N4/D4 - 2 messages sent in N2/N3 and not intercepted.

Trapped AND will lose:

USA / Hirk cannot leave - He has not RID any baddie.

Sweden/curr3nt cannot leave - He has not arrested China (maurice) or Iran (shadow).

Germany / GJ cannot leave - No successful save/guess.

[curr3nt]

So it is a loss because we didn't eliminate the baddies?

"When a single faction manages to eliminate all other players, there's no one stopping them to leave the game. This bypasses individual WinCons."

[Guest]

No single faction eliminated another faction ...

Good job comrades. Thank you for not making my death in vain...of course sleep and hosting kept us from all winning

Edited April 16, 2011 by maurice

[Hirkala]

Yeah, so forgive my frankness, but that's a load of utter crap... The fact that the three of us didn't win... Yeah... Not cool!

What is the point in a "group wincon" if it can't be achieved? The whole point of the group wincon was to backup the individual wincon... I knew the remaining two Baddies and everyone here knew that! I could have voted for one of them last minute and lynched them, achieving my individual wincon, but why? We could all win... This game is about either an individual win or a mass win. I chose a mass win. I could have lynched Iran or Argentina... And I could have RID killed them both... Only reason I DIDN'T RID Kill one of them is because I got trapped N2... You know my RID was correct on N2. What is the point of having the group wincon if it ends up like this? There is no point to it! Yes, I didn't achieve my individual wincon, but I CHOSE not to. I chose to let the remaining Baddies leave, which meant that all that remained were Goodies and the Indy. Technically, I DID eliminate all of the Baddies, albeit in an unusual fashion. So why am I and the others being punished for that?

[araver]

@curr3nt & Hirkala - Yes, I know you are mad. It is your right.

But this game was not about group WinCons, that was a failsafe if individual WinCons were no longer achievable.

And elimination stands for to remove from further competition by defeating, not by letting people go.

[curr3nt]

Not angry, just a bit confused.

You also gave maurice credit where I see the only thing that allowed the baddies to escape was Hirkala. Did maurice somehow lead Hirkala into doing the abstain?

Otherwise Thalia traps Shadow, Golf guesses Molly leaving Hirkala to RID Molly and Shadow to be lynched. Or did he pave the way by letting them perform the actions that met their individual wincon?

Not discounting anything maurice might have done but it isn't clear.

[araver]

You also gave maurice credit where I see the only thing that allowed the baddies to escape was Hirkala. Did maurice somehow lead Hirkala into doing the abstain?

Otherwise Thalia traps Shadow, Golf guesses Molly leaving Hirkala to RID Molly and Shadow to be lynched. Or did he pave the way by letting them perform the actions that met their individual wincon?

Not discounting anything maurice might have done but it isn't clear.

Yes, the credit was due to BTSC discussions. He could have had his WinCon met earlier (USA and Russia were known to them after N1/D1), but he supported (and even proposed) actions in N2 that allowed the other two to achieve their own individual WinCon. Maurice did most of the powerplaying in both N1 and N2.

Else. The baddies escaped because:

- All able players abstained - Molly and Shad's votes counted x0 (since they tried to leave) and you could have lynched both of them (tie lynch=all are lynched). All it took was 1 vote on Molly and 1 vote on Shad.

- No one asked questions about the group WinCon, except for the baddies (and the ghosts).

- Hirk could have killed Molly in N3 and complete his individual WinCon. GJ had no chance to fill his individual WinCon. Both Marq and Solman continued their quest to fulfill their individual WinCon.

Also, I believe Hirk is mad because his WinCon was almost completed in N2 when he did submit a correct RID. Incidentally, the arrest on him in N2 prevented him from completing his individual WinCon in my opinion since his WinCon said "Must correctly RID Kill 1 baddie before leaving the game." "Correctly RID Kill", not "RID Guess" nor "submit a correct RID Kill action", which can again be regarded as a semantic difference *shrug*. So, I think he is (also) pissed at my interpretation in his individual WinCon.

Edited April 16, 2011 by araver

[curr3nt]

Noticed maurice tried to get his wincon partly done N2 too but was prevented. He didn't have a chance after that to lynch or kill Hirkala.

Could also give credit for annoying me enough to stay on him for lynch instead of switching to Shadow once it seemed more likely that Shadow was Iran.

[Guest]

Yes, the credit was due to BTSC discussions. He could have had his WinCon met earlier (USA and Russia were known to them after N1/D1), but he supported (and even proposed) actions in N2 that allowed the other two to achieve their own individual WinCon. Maurice did most of the powerplaying in both N1 and N2.

I'm pleased that you weren't willing to reward the "lets all do nothing strategy". I was a bit surprised to see both of baddies survive the final night.

But I think that this credit to Maurice is misplaced for the exact same reason. Maurice's only realistic opportunity to win was through individual wincon. If he chose to put the group ahead of himself, it seems pretty analogous to what Hirk did. He didn't focus sufficiently on winning. Even if he hadn't been lynched, his actions allowed his only allies to escape (guaranteeing his demise anyway).

[Guest]

I'm pleased that you weren't willing to reward the "lets all do nothing strategy". I was a bit surprised to see both of baddies survive the final night.

But I think that this credit to Maurice is misplaced for the exact same reason. Maurice's only realistic opportunity to win was through individual wincon. If he chose to put the group ahead of himself, it seems pretty analogous to what Hirk did. He didn't focus sufficiently on winning. Even if he hadn't been lynched, his actions allowed his only allies to escape (guaranteeing his demise anyway).

Ahh, not quite true, solman. I tried to balance winning as a group with each of us winning on our own if need be.

N2 we "should have" killed Hirk and Marq. In a typical Mafia, the baddies have a chance to kill the spy and the goodie kill in one night, they take it. But I backed away because we needed to work as a group and I hoped at least one of us could get a win. So I proposed spying Thalia and killing Framm. Did that mean we couldn't win as a group. No! I hoped to lynch Marq which coupled with Hirk's death would have meant we all had our WinCon's met. But it also would have pretty much given us the win as a group.

Even with the failure to kill Hirk, we still could have won as a group. had my teammates not been asleep or lost track of time due to other hosting duties we would have lynched curr D2. At that point I would have told Thalia that she needs to leave else we would kill her N4 so we'd have no traps to worry about. We win D4 lynch hands down (even without the manips) and it's over.

Here's the difference though. With the exception of Hirk, who could not die N3, I don't think the goodies put the group ahead of themselves. They put themselves first and agreed to a scheme that would ensure they would not die N3. I saw that as selfish. Someone should have just said, "no frickin' way baddies! Hirk, RID Kill Molly and tomorrow we shall lynch Shadow". I even said in the ghost BTSC that it was over. There was no way for the baddies to stop Hirk's RID Kill nor Shadow's impending lynch. Now maybe one (or two) goodies would die, but the other goodies would win and no baddies would. I played to win for myself, but when it became clear that Molly and Shadow had an easier (clear) path to their WinCons I decided I'd take the bullet if it needed to come down to that (which again it shouldn't have had to, but oh well). And my actions didn't guarantee my demise, just that if a baddie were to meet their demise, the one who was furthest from their WinCon would. Again I see that as unselfish and the "let's do nothing" tactic as selfish.

Edited April 16, 2011 by maurice

[curr3nt]

I'm not sure you could have lynched me D2. With all three baddies up I would hope that the goodies would have tried for a baddie before the indy.

[Guest]

curr, if my buddies had voted for you it would have been 4-3 since Thalia didn't vote and Hirk was jailed...mo, s7, mm, marq(which we hoped was x2, but didn't want to be x0) vs curr, gj, sol.

[curr3nt]

Anyone want to tell me why what I did was completely wrong?

From hints given and info I had - If everyone was telling the truth by words and actions

Vine could only be Austraila

Hirkala could only be USA

Thalia could only be England

Golf could only be Germany

Maurice could only be Russia

Molly could only be Spain

Solman could only be Israel

Marq, Framm and Shadow are unknown

From there I saw it as a matter of if/then counters.

Solman countered Molly making Solman Spain and Molly Argentina

Thalia countered Maurice making Marq Russia and Maurice a baddie

Framm dead made him likely Israel

Leaving Molly, Maurice and Shadow as baddies

Why was it wrong (rule-wise) for me to put all that out there?

[curr3nt]

curr, if my buddies had voted for you it would have been 4-3 since Thalia didn't vote and Hirk was jailed...mo, s7, mm, marq(which we hoped was x2, but didn't want to be x0) vs curr, gj, sol.

That would be counting on Marq not realizing that you would likely choose to move him and Thalia not returning to vote.

If you ganged up on me earlier would Thalia not have voted too? If you waited to the last moment to switch would the goodies still have trusted you enough to abstain?

Why didn't you vote Thalia?

[Guest]

Rule-wise it wasn't wrong. I shouldn't speak much for two reasons, I was a baddie and I have often thought that all goodies should out themselves and then wherever there is a double up of claims, you lynch.

But the problem is that that doesn't work with people as well as in a simulation, due to trust, inactivity, etc. You must consider we are all human and process info, emotion etc. differently.

Specifically for this game it was wrong because we didn't know England, Sweden, Israel nor Sweden until you told us. You helped Molly and S7 meet their WinCon. Had they not N3 plays out differently, no?

From an ettiquette stand point, if you are on my side I don't want you outting me. If people don't pick up my hints then too bad. If I want to be outted, i'll do it myself. Additionally some players leave false hints to protect themsrlves, others, etc.( Recall Foodie Mafia.) If you call them on it, it could screw a solid plan that you aren't privy to.

I'll touch on Foodie Mafia some more, since I know you must feel the actions are comparable. I believe you did it later in the game, when we had the baddies cornered. Also recall I tried to protect you by making you bad in my view. Had anyone picked up on that and did what you did, they would not have placed you in my btsc, likely. Just my thoughts.

Edited April 16, 2011 by maurice

[araver]

@solman - Again, I've seen the baddie BTSC. Maurice had both the first and the last call in all actions N1 and N2 and they could have won by all three getting their individual WinCons had Maurice not been lynched D2. This balancing-agreement ensured that no baddie would powerplay the other's actions to reach their individual WinCon on their own and brought a second layer of trust within the baddie BTSC.

@Curr3nt - D2 lynch was rather weird to explain minute by minute, but, in all honesty, the plan to which Maurice refers to, with Shadow's switch and Molly's vote (who was occupied with hosting a Mafia) would have ensured them enough votes for a win if Marq had placed x2 (which she did till the very last minute) or a tie with x1 (which was the final call). Again, plan devised by Maurice and not executed by Shadow, and betrayed by Molly for self-preservation (basically no point at that time).

Also, it was wrong to put it out there, from multiple reasons. I will only give you 1. Molly and Hirk mentioned the rest, and I'm sure Maurice will chime in on the rest. EDIT: Maurice already did that as I was typing...

In your position, outing yourself as Sweden + supporting Hirk's claim blew to pieces any WIFOM the baddies had. So from speculation, they went to absolute certainty and narrowed down the rest of roles as a result.

It is very good that you picked all those strong hints (Again, hints from them and claims ONLY TO YOU because you knew who you were AND you knew Australia's spy results which the others did not). But there is a very fine line between having that info and sharing that info. If you were a goodie, it may be a useful strategy (although, from experience, people are NOT inclined to believe you if you have not been cleared first). But you were an Indy with a secret WinCon. You should have known you could NOT be trusted. This is Mafia. If you wanted to get the trust of the goodies, or to get info out there, you should have hinted to the right people (Hirk for example) in a way that only they (and no other) get it using info only you two knew (such as the "Molly is Spain" spy). And even then, chances are they won't believe you. This is Mafia. By saying things out loud, you tip your hand and everyone else's as well to the other faction (which you cannot possibly know what knows or suspects at that precise moment). Basically, WIFOM and hints would have gotten you much further IMHO.

Edited April 16, 2011 by araver

[Guest]

That would be counting on Marq not realizing that you would likely choose to move him and Thalia not returning to vote.

If you ganged up on me earlier would Thalia not have voted too? If you waited to the last moment to switch would the goodies still have trusted you enough to abstain?

Why didn't you vote Thalia?

Abstain wasn't the goal at that point. Winning straight up was. Also we had our eye on Marq. We took that into consideration

[curr3nt]

I also think "hints" help the baddies more since there are more eyes looking. Goodies are more likely to miss then IMO.

I am thinking I should have waited until D2. I was hoping the info might help some goodies with actions N2 and figured the baddies knew most of the same info I already did. They also knew Solman was a goodie and Hirkala's comment hinted to Spain as the result covering what I actually knew for sure.

The gamble is did the baddies miss the hints or not. I felt I had to assume not.