Evidence of God's Design

[Izzy]

Wait a sec, is it against the rules to call childish trolls annoying and obnoxious? It's hardly a subjective opinion, and on practically every forum measures are taken to ban trolls. I PM'd you to spare you from further public humiliation, but since you *insist* on publicizing it, this is what I sent him (note, I'm not actually calling him an idiot because he *isn't* who he claims to be, so can't be reported on that front):

Alright bro, what's the deal? You're blatantly a troll made obvious through your ridiculous statements and personal attacks. Either you're who you claim to be and you're an *idiot*, or you're an atheist having a bit of fun and will have a ball from this message. ..A bit old to be trolling, methinks? The timing coincides with the Proud American thread so hysterically that it's almost impossible to assume otherwise.

Grow up - atheist or Christian. You're corrupting the malleable minds of children. Take it to RDF or something.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Izzy

[gvg]

I've been following this thread for some time now, and have noticed that it has turned into a mob of personal attacks, mostly from the atheist side. I've seen the idea tossed around that hambone is 'corrupting the minds of children' and forcing his beliefs on others. Two things I have to tell you all:

1. If a child throws away whatever beliefs he had over some random thread on a riddle internet site filled with people they don't know, then he or she has bigger problems. I'm under 18, technically a child, and neither side of the argument has affected me either way. I know my own beliefs.

2. The atheists on this thread are forcing their ideas on everyone else the same amount, if not more so, than hambone. There's nothing wrong with believing in God, so stop acting as though it's a crime to do so. This post was made to just explain why hambone believes what he believes. It wasn't meant to turn into an argument, and the fact that hambone has tried to stop it while the atheists haven't shows who really wants everyone to believe what they do. Also: While hambone has shown his reasons for believing in a God, many of the comments by those who disagree with him have, as of late, (some haven't) attacked his 'lack' of scientific knowledge.

I wrote this because I feel that everyone is against one person. If hambone is actually a troll, then I'm sorry for writing this. However, I don't think he is; he is simply someone who wanted to state their beliefs and why they believe them and have been persecuted for it. His personal experience is enough to show why he believes what he does; everybody lay off.

Edited July 17, 2010 by gvg

[andromeda]

Also: While hambone has shown his reasons for believing in a God, many of the comments by those who disagree with him have, as of late, (some haven't) attacked his 'lack' of scientific knowledge.

We were just trying to point out the logical fallacies in his conclusions. If you gonna debate about something, you better know what you are talking about.

His personal experience is enough to show why he believes what he does; everybody lay off.

We have acknowledged that with open mind as I recall, but this thread is not about "Why I personally believe in God", but "Evidence of God's Design".

I'm personally cool with hambone, and he knows that

[Guest]

What the he** does a troll do? What is a troll? I am being quite serious. If you do not believe I am not a true Christian I might be able to help you with that. You can, when your in the Tampa Florida area send me an E-mail, it is available for all on my home page. You can come to my church where I have been a member for 14 years, see some of the video and photography work I have done in the Middle East, Israel, and @ the Dead Sea,(worked for an International News Firm.) If at any time I can post a gallery, (which is something I am not allowed to do yet) I will post pictures. Some are pretty cool. But then you probably would not believe that the pictures were real or that its not me. Either way I am a blood bought born again Christian that believes in Jesus Christ and a Divine Creation. Though the things that help me to see intelligent design are just science to you. I guess the scientists I quoted don't have a clue what they are talking about, though any scientist that does not believe in God and Creation is full of dookie, (if you ask me) (not that you are.)

[Guest]

way off: just want to say I don't take any of it Personal. Just peoples opinions.

Not everyone has been Nasty, you know who you are, I have no prob with Izzy btw, I think she knows that. I love my God. I will stand up for Him and His Word. That is the least I can do, you see I believe He died for me to pay for a debt that I could never pay.

[Guest]

I agree with gvg. I'm an atheist but I am on hambone's side because this thread is even worse than the "proud to be american" thread. At least there we were properly debating.

[Guest]

There was more to that story I was telling to unreality, I don't think I should continue it though. What I thought was unusual about it was no church, no one witnessing to me, no formal prayer, not really expecting anything to occur and it did, something did. What was mentioned was just the beginning. I have come to the conclusion that the majority of people in this Den, don't believe, and really attack anyone that will want to talk about this topic. I really should not be surprised. I don't know any of you or your pasts. Just as non of you know who I am and what my past is. I am just a dog licking a screen to you, that posted a thread about a very controversial topic who obviously sucks at debating. This should be the last post I would guess. Back to Riddles.

In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Gen 1:1.

[Izzy]

What's the name of the church? I might just be in the position to take you up on that offer. If I'm wrong, and you're not a troll, I'll take back my statements entirely, but until then, I really have no reason to believe otherwise.

[Guest]

What's the name of the church? I might just be in the position to take you up on that offer. If I'm wrong, and you're not a troll, I'll take back my statements entirely, but until then, I really have no reason to believe otherwise.

Izzy, please. You are not going to come within 100 yards of a church. I like being anonymous Izzy. Just as you and everyone else, but if your in the Tampa Bay area make sure you let me know.

[Guest]

I have a theory about miracles that I was thinking at work yesterday. If you're inclined to read this then Im sure it'll give you something to think about.

As I was sitting outside during my dinner break, I noticed how one cloud in particular was sitting to the left of the setting sun. While the sun as settting it was giving off a vast amount of bright colors. Orange, purple, etc..

This cloud wasn't whole, it had dots all around it and each vibrant color of light pierced thru it like something an artist spending over a 1000 hours would paint. It was truly astonishing. But then I got to thinking about the trillion of things that led upto this one moment. How the cloud needed to be there at that exact moment. How the weather, water, moisture all had to be perfect to make that cloud the way it is.

However the tree's gave off c02 to help produce life so we can enjoy the sight. However there are literally trillions of little things going on all around us that make these moments happen.

Now, we see nature all around us, we look outside and we'll see th backyard full of tree's. Nothing special, same old thing. But this cloud I viewed last night was something truly amazing.... I instinctively thought this was a product of some divine making.... But it wasn't. It was a series of a trillion events that lead up to this perfect moment in time that I viewed. Everything had to work together, in synergy for this to happen.

Random acts happen ALL the time, we only observe the ones that yield the most attractable product.

These "products" I feel we initially attribute a divine doing. But is it really ? Ins't it just a series of random events like I said that produced something great ?

What if we took this theory of nature, that man has no control of ( relative to my theory) and we applied this to say miracles in everyday life?

People claim miracles happen all the time, but can we say miracles are just events that occur with the perfect alignment of random events that spark an amazing observation ?

Perhaps some could say divine intervention helped align these "random events"

But based off that argument , if Divine intervention has occurred, then who regulates it ? Why not help the mother in Africa being raped than the man winning a $2 million dollar lottery ticket ?

What about our planet ? We don't even know how far space goes, can't we predict perhaps that our planet is a perfect alignment of random events that produce what we call life today ?

I also have another question,

In the general gist of a religion, who has rules ( commandments) etc, I only but ask, if God wanted us to follow a certain set of rules, why not make them universally known in our souls so we can be held accountable for our actions ?

Some will argue that perhaps we do have the rules in our souls , that rationalism a theory but Marx explaining our brains are hardwired from birth is really credible ?

Also, if we as humans knew there was a God, knew there was an after life. Would we then be afriad of death ?

I'm sure some of these you heard before but I just wanted to get these written down and perhaps see if they merit a response.

Thanks

[Guest]

Are you trying to reopen this can?

[andromeda]

Why not help the mother in Africa being raped than the man winning a $2 million dollar lottery ticket ?

A theist would argue that God works in mysterious ways.

This basically means that God decides what happens to you and everyone else, you have no power to decide anything.

In the general gist of a religion, who has rules ( commandments) etc, I only but ask, if God wanted us to follow a certain set of rules, why not make them universally known in our souls so we can be held accountable for our actions ?

A theist would argue that God had given us a free will.

This basically says that we can do whatever we want during our lifetime, but based of off that we will be judged in afterlife. This directly contradicts the God works part.

Also, if we as humans knew there was a God, knew there was an after life. Would we then be afriad of death ?

Biologically, our survival instinct is driving us to gasp for every breath that we can take.

It's an evolutionary trait the way for the DNA (the true master of all life that there is an ever will be) to insure it's survival and continuance.

EDIT: Hahah... I've never noticed this before but if you fill in the blanks _D_N_A you get my real name

Off course it means nothing

The million dollar question is: Why would God had given us survival instinct if there's afterlife?!

I'm sure some of these you heard before but I just wanted to get these written down and perhaps see if they merit a response.

Awesome post.

Edited July 17, 2010 by andromeda

[andromeda]

Are you trying to reopen this can?

Ionno has given this thread a much needed CPR!

[Izzy]

Izzy, please. You are not going to come within 100 yards of a church. I like being anonymous Izzy. Just as you and everyone else, but if your in the Tampa Bay area make sure you let me know.

I'd be willing if it meant putting a troll to rest.

I'm in Central Florida, btw.

[Guest]

In the general gist of a religion, who has rules ( commandments) etc, I only but ask, if God wanted us to follow a certain set of rules, why not make them universally known in our souls so we can be held accountable for our actions ?

Some will argue that perhaps we do have the rules in our souls , that rationalism a theory but Marx explaining our brains are hardwired from birth is really credible ?

Also, if we as humans knew there was a God, knew there was an after life. Would we then be afriad of death ?

First statement, He did. People that lived and died before Christ will be judged on How they lived. When the Bible says thou shalt not kill, the Hebrew word is Murder.

I believe everyone has that still small voice inside that says to you, This is just not right, I should not be doing this.

There are 2 births as well as 2 deaths. It is accounted once for every man to die, but this is not the end. If you reject the sacrifice that Jesus made to atone for your sins, that is the ONLY unforgivable sin. Then you will die the second death. It is eternal separation from God, and everyone else. Though you will be aware that you are their. Heaven has foundations and streets to walk on, Hell will only be opposite of everything Heaven is. You will be eternally falling in Hell. Heaven is light, Hell is darkness - no light, Heaven your with others, Hell you are alone, Heaven will be beautiful to look upon, Hell you will be blind. Get the point. Everything that God has put into existence including his Word is Eternal. Especially those of us created after His image. Meaning the Spirit that is in you will live forever, it's just where.

Some people think that this sounds like a hateful God, I don't agree. It is the desire of God that everyone come to the knowledge of His son Jesus Christ. People that think God is that kind of hateful being don't understand Him at all.

[Guest]

I'd be willing if it meant putting a troll to rest.

I'm in Central Florida, btw.

Izzy, I'm the district manager for a large Hurricane window manufacturer, I cover 8 counties. Hernando to Orlando to Sarasota. Probably drive through your county once a month.

[gvg]

I have a theory about miracles that I was thinking at work yesterday. If you're inclined to read this then Im sure it'll give you something to think about.

As I was sitting outside during my dinner break, I noticed how one cloud in particular was sitting to the left of the setting sun. While the sun as settting it was giving off a vast amount of bright colors. Orange, purple, etc..

This cloud wasn't whole, it had dots all around it and each vibrant color of light pierced thru it like something an artist spending over a 1000 hours would paint. It was truly astonishing. But then I got to thinking about the trillion of things that led upto this one moment. How the cloud needed to be there at that exact moment. How the weather, water, moisture all had to be perfect to make that cloud the way it is.

However the tree's gave off c02 to help produce life so we can enjoy the sight. However there are literally trillions of little things going on all around us that make these moments happen.

Now, we see nature all around us, we look outside and we'll see th backyard full of tree's. Nothing special, same old thing. But this cloud I viewed last night was something truly amazing.... I instinctively thought this was a product of some divine making.... But it wasn't. It was a series of a trillion events that lead up to this perfect moment in time that I viewed. Everything had to work together, in synergy for this to happen.

Random acts happen ALL the time, we only observe the ones that yield the most attractable product.

These "products" I feel we initially attribute a divine doing. But is it really ? Ins't it just a series of random events like I said that produced something great ?

What if we took this theory of nature, that man has no control of ( relative to my theory) and we applied this to say miracles in everyday life?

People claim miracles happen all the time, but can we say miracles are just events that occur with the perfect alignment of random events that spark an amazing observation ?

Perhaps some could say divine intervention helped align these "random events"

But based off that argument , if Divine intervention has occurred, then who regulates it ? Why not help the mother in Africa being raped than the man winning a $2 million dollar lottery ticket ?

What about our planet ? We don't even know how far space goes, can't we predict perhaps that our planet is a perfect alignment of random events that produce what we call life today ?

I also have another question,

In the general gist of a religion, who has rules ( commandments) etc, I only but ask, if God wanted us to follow a certain set of rules, why not make them universally known in our souls so we can be held accountable for our actions ?

Some will argue that perhaps we do have the rules in our souls , that rationalism a theory but Marx explaining our brains are hardwired from birth is really credible ?

Also, if we as humans knew there was a God, knew there was an after life. Would we then be afriad of death ?

I'm sure some of these you heard before but I just wanted to get these written down and perhaps see if they merit a response.

Thanks

Let me explain what I think:

Physics is the 'science' of God; that is to say, God works through the laws defined by physics.

To me, He started everything through the big bang. He set up the laws that govern everything. And He is still there. But I am considered a deist, apparently, because to me, although he's there to help if you ask, he really hasn't done a whole lot since the big bang. He set evolution in motion, thus he technically created life, although indirectly. He made the laws, and allowed them to go on there path. That is why I'm not a big fan of the book of Genesis, or most of the old testament for that matter; I don't think he said "okay, let me build this whole thing in six days." He made the laws, and let them go. 14 billion years later, here we are.

Now, I do think that he steps in when things are getting too out of hand (sending Jesus) but he doesn't do it often.

So yes, the site you saw was, indirectly, created by God, since He set the laws and other things in motion that eventually created those events. He set evolution in motion, which eventually led to you and your enjoyment of this moment. Etc, etc.

The afterlife thing: I believe in heaven and hell, and thus in an afterlife. The reason many (though not me) are afraid of death is because of what andromeda said: The will to survive is in our DNA.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone =)

Edited July 18, 2010 by gvg

[andromeda]

You did NOT answer the million dollar question hambone:

Why did God give us survival instinct if there's an afterlife?!

LITTLE HELP: It's hard to read the post when the quoted text isn't marked so you could use different colors to distinct what was written by you and what by the poster you are quoting or just use this

[quote]insert quoted text here[/quote]

[Guest]

Okay, about the six day thing. From what I have studied. The Universe has been for who knows How long, I believe God made it to. The Big Bang thing just does not fly with me. Explosions create dis-order, the Universe is definitely not in dis-order. Much to complex to be formed from an explosion. Gen. says that God created light, earth, animals, dry land, you know you've read it. Keep in mind Psalms and 2nd Peter says 1 day with God is a 1000 years on earth. Could look at the 6 days as 6000 years before He created man. It's been 6000 since then. But this really does not matter if you believe in God and his Word. We know in part, we see in part and when I meet Him I'll be sure to ask all these really hard questions.

Edited July 18, 2010 by hambone

[andromeda]

To me, He started everything through the big bang.

You are totally right and here's the proof! (ATTENTION: SARCASM!)

It's just way too funny not to post, no offense

[Guest]

You did NOT answer the million dollar question hambone:

Why did God give us survival instinct if there's an afterlife?!

LITTLE HELP: It's hard to read the post when the quoted text isn't marked so you could use different colors to distinct what was written by you and what by the poster you are quoting or just use this

Okay, I'll try that again. let me answer the million dollar question.

[Guest]

Now offence just laughed my *** off. Okay. How do you answer this?

I will try not to chase a rabbit with this answer:

Why did God give us survival instinct if there's an afterlife?!

The afterlife is not a guarantee to be enjoyable for everyone. Me personally I am not afraid of dying. As far as wanting to survive and the instinct to do so, Life is a gift from God and to be enjoyed. By saying survive do you mean as a species of Human Beings, or survive as to not starve to death if possible?

EDIT: I did it. The Quote thing that is.

Edited July 18, 2010 by hambone

[Guest]

Well, one point of view is that life is suffering. If heaven is perfect, you'll take it for granted unless you've lived and suffered. Only then can you truly appreciate heaven.

[gvg]

Andromeda: That was definitely funny =)

[Izzy]

Izzy, I'm the district manager for a large Hurricane window manufacturer, I cover 8 counties. Hernando to Orlando to Sarasota. Probably drive through your county once a month.

Good for you. However, that does not prove you've been active at a church for the last 14 years, and doesn't get rid of your troll status.