Quag

gvg, your point all comes back to the same thing. If you hate to think the universe and everything in it happened by chance, that god had to have created it, or started it up and pushed it in the direction he wanted, then what created god? This is my fundamental problem with ALL religions. They all claim that the universe couldn’t just be, that it had to have been created. They point out its complexity etc. and usually end their arguments with well it is obvious the only answer is it had to have been created by god. Well when you ask who created god they say god always just existed. Seems to me this is saying "something to complex for my mind to handle so ill just say it was a single entity, omniscient and omnipotent", easier to understand and wrap up into a simple package. As to the miracles, there is not 1 single proven miracle to have happened in all of history. As to your last post, I kinda agree with the first paragraph. The fact we are sentient and can make choices does make the universe neither 100% chance nor 100% predetermined. I think it is a leap to say that therefore god must have created it. Having said all that I must say that, believe it or not, I agree with you sorta IF there is a god I believe in a non interventionist type. I.e. started the universe and let it unfold.

wow you got that D3K3! only one that i made any sense of was the woman, i thought it had something to do with the harvest. but then harvest and fertility were often put together

Nah, its just a song. i think its by the mommas and the poppas

Lemon tree very pretty and the lemon flower is sweet but the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat

lemonade is sweet because they add lots and lots of sugar. my 2 cents on the issue. i prefer coke over pepsi but diet pepsi over diet coke. and grape crush over all

yeah i understand EDM, my point is i think it has to be all done at the same time. i dont think we can do one, than tackle another problem. they are all interrelated.

Agree with last 2 lines EDM

seems like an oversimplification. in fact historically speaking an increase in food has led to an increase in population. increasing the education as well as the income, ie standard of living obtainable has had more to do with reducing the rate of population growth. I agree starving people makes me sad too. Id like to find a way to end that. i dont think just giving food will work, i think it has to be attacked on many levels. ie food for starving, education for all. some kind of fair trade practiced so that the poor can earn a living. and probably a bunch of other stuff as well.

so what your saying is that the alien marshmellows arrived here on earth in ancient egypt and have compeltely taken over that country?

I was wondering when the foold was gonna come into this. Again ill give a plausible explanation of the flood. All major civilizations grew up in flood plains of great rivers. Every single one of them would naturally experience a flood at some point (probably several). there are some civilizations that didnt grow up on flood plains (few and no where near as big as those that did) those civilizations do not have flood stories, for the simple reason that they didnt have floods.

Hambone do you have a particular beef with biology? did biology run off with your best friend and break your heart or something? lol just trying to add a little humor nothing personal meant. I think you mean geologists not biologists dating the earth at 4.7 billion (wiki says 4.5B)though many of the sciences overlap the dating of the age of the earth is in the realm of geology. The age however is freely admitted to be an estimate not a precise time. Again science accepts that it can and should be able to modified as new and better data, comprehension of the processus involved come into play. i liked the first link it was more fun (i like colourful sites) as to the 2nd heres some opposition http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/rate-ri.htm http://gondwanaresearch.com/rate.htm

complex issue, you cant seperate under nousrishment from the overpopulation question. if we feed all the people on earth it will just contribute to the exploding population placing greater strains on the food creation/distribution network. I do not have an answer but it is definetly something that the entire world needs to work on. btw good sites EDM and interesting topic perhaps some good will come of it.

no i dont mean is it a solid or a liquid, i mean what is it?? it appears to be some sort of elastomer, my guess is extraterrestrial in origin. i mean seriously ya bang it with a hammer and it pops right back into place. ever seen invasion of the body snatchers? i think peopel who eat marshmellows are slowly being replaced by the gooey goodness from outer space. Just a theory i know but think about it!

Ok i was in the kitchen just now and noticed something..... a marshmellow! what is it people? i need to know. im afraid to go back into the kitchen untill i get an answer. i might starve!!!

Yes i think we can agree to disagree. the central point behind my posts is that there is no evidence either way. I mean, if different people can use the same "evidence" for opposite conclusions i dont think we can call it evidence. once again i proudly stand on the fence and state boldly that i dont know if god exists or not. but dont worry its a broad fence i dont think ill fall off.

I believe in and have extensivly and continually studied history. that is why we disagree so much. I know that all that is written is not 100% correct. that is why historians try and take as many sources as possible to then compare them and come up with the most likely answer as what probably happened. sometimes there is only one source sometimes more. sometimes a second source is indirect. I'll give an example, The battle of theropylae. The numbers involved vary depending on which source you use. the persians were estimated at between 70K and a over 2.5 million. the greeks between roughly 5k to over 10k. Now fairly obvious that at the time it would be impossible for there to be several million persians. the population of persia at the time and logistics available would perclude it (that is an indirect source, logic says the upper number doesnt work). so that brings the number down, but still the numbers are in dispute. what isnt in dispute is that a small number of greeks withstood the immensly larger Persian army for several days. The closer we get to present time the more different sources there are, making for a more accurate picture. the invention of the printing press greatly increasing the number of copies of documents thus giving a greater chance at least 1 would survive. As to scientist or biologists, not sure what ya mean by scientists, basically a biologost is a scientist so ill just say scientists as globaly encompassing all the sciences including biology. Well the stuff they write can ,and is put to the test all the time. that is the point of science, to not take for granted, but to continually put their ideas to the test. That is why science experiments are conducted by every student from elementary to post graduate school. It is not just to read what someone said and take that as the truth, but to put it to the test and let the student actually see if what they have been told or think, holds up. as to the verses you quoted yes i can say that EVERY nation is not against isreal. in fact untill every nation is, your quotes cannot be used at all. and of course the people who wrote the bible were concerned about the middle east. that is where they were from. now if they talked about hiroshima or nagasaki that would be impressive. It also seems to me that there is a huge amount of the worlds attention on Iraq and Afghanistan. not tooo tooo far away globaly speaking but not part of judea at any point in history. there is also Somalia, Tibet, Georgia, North Korea, Iran, they are also getting much of the worlds attention. Explain why that is not in the bible? i can easily, i just did, the people who wrote it were not from there.

Yes i really think they would refrain from mentioning it was destroyed. If you want to make it look like you wrote about event "A" before Event "A" happens then you dont talk about event "A" in the past tense, only in the future tense. To do it your way would cast even more doubt upon it.

Hambone. sorry this is where we disagree again it SAYS that jesus SAID that. My point is that very easily someone could have added that bit in AFTER the temple was destroyed. ie. 71 AD the lines are added into the scriptures.

jello is neither liquid or solid or even a gas for that matter, it is in fact the most perfect form of any substance ever thought of. especially lime jello. that stuff is just well indescribable. gotta go make jello now yum yum yum

perhaps he meant add velocity, or subtract velocity, depending on what ya want the moon to do. however this thread was about a ball on perfectly spherical world with no form of friction. an impossible state, i know but theoretically the ball would never stop.

actually gvg communism is an economic system as well, not a govt. system. my post however was because of your statement that socialism would come in a representative democracy. Most communist govts we think of, are actually varying forms of dictatorship with some sort of socialst economic system. China being a weird mix of extreme socialism moving on a sliding scale to unrestricted capitalism, depending on what economic zone your in. Again my favorite is total dictaroship with me as leader, failing that representative democracy is the closest thing to being "fair" for everyone.

Sorry no reply ppl ive been sick, then work, then sick again. probably shouldnt have tried to go back to work. ok going way way way back. Hambone EDM, sorry never replied to your PMs but TBH i never checked to see if anyone had sent me any Pm's. So ill only deal with hambones longer one. First of all id love to know where exactly in the bible it says that he says that, remember i liek to read the actual source material, bit of a stickler i am. But here goes a just common sense answer. according to you scriptures were written from 50-70,75 AD. ill just accept those dates for sake of arguement. Seems easy enough to add in a line of an event happening at the time to make a prophecy seem likely. as to why not add the specific date. hmm could it be that it would sound to fake? too added after the fact? also believe it or not they didnt use our calender back then. it came in later. most dates were based on lives/reigns of kings emperors. so my answer to you is the reason the prophesy is in the scriptures is precisely because it had happened and then they were added in. ok water bit, yup truly amazing substance, but then so many things are. how about mercury? it is a metal that is liquid at room temperature. By weird coincidence(or perhaps divine design, depending on who ya talk to) a change of 1 inch in a mercury barometer is equvalent to an change of 1000' in altitude, very handy for aviation which is why most of the world (aside from russia) uses feet and not meters for altitude. as to why none on the moon, well the lack of an atmosphere would mean that any water would disappear into space. the gravitational field of the moon is too weak to hold it. some would be caught in earths gravitational field joining our vast water reserves. oh yeah water isnt such an incredibly rare resource as you seem to think. the rings of saturn are mostly made of ice, in fact much of the stuff floating around our solar system is water.

I can respect that he believes in god, i cannot respect him put up lies, halftruths and other nonesense for his proof. he gave his reasons a few pages back the rest is just plain garbage. he is the one to claim he has the one truth then backs it up with lies and misinformation. if it is the one truth he shouldnt need to do so, the fact that he feels compelled to could point to insecurities on his part or a desire to trick others into his belief. maybe there is another reaso,n im not sure. Again if you want read the entire thread, hambone is so far off base on science and history it isnt funny

Izzy, if you still bother to read this, you were right, i was naive. hambone, your right i didnt read all your post the parts i read were compeltely irrelevant and had nothign to do with anything whatsoever. your scriptures havent stop changing and i doubt they ever will. what does non miraculous stuff that happens in the bible have to do with proving it is all 100% true?? ever heard of the iliad and the trojan war? an AMATEUR archeologist named Schliemann used the iliad to find troy. Hmm according to your logic if the iliad was precise enough for someone to discover troy then it must be 100% true. sorry dude your god is fails only Zeus, Poseidon, Appolo etc are the real gods. seriously. One more comment i missed before. The dead sea scrolls are not exact copies of your scriptures, they compliment them and include tons of stuff that wasnt in them. once again STOP LYING! Ok this is not for Hambone, this is for anyone else who decides to read this thread. If you open this thread up near the end realize this Hambone has a very very limited comprehension of both science and history. If you choose to believe in whatever form of god you want feel free do do so but DO NOT use anything hambone has said as reasoning. Everthing he has written has either been blatant lies, half truths or completely irrelevant to the actual topic. If so inclined go back and read through the entire thread to see the proofs of Hambones errrors.

i will try again YOUR SCRIPTURES HAVE CHANGED. THIS IS HISTORICAL FACT! please stop your blatant lying. again look up the council of nicaea. also translations etc. STOP LYING THERE IS HISTORICAL EVIDENCE OF TAMPERING ON PURPOSE WITH YOUR PRECIOUS SCRIPTURES!! ITS A FACT STOP LYING ABOUT IT!! and fyi stop saying you have archological proof of stuff what you have is sketchy historical record left to interpretation Sorry all for the caps but he just refuses to accept the truth. the truth is he just wants to believe, that is all.