Quag

Actually christianity has changed over time, hence the different sects or denominations. Since weve been talking atronomy, christianity considered the world the cente of, not only the solar system, but the universe. hindus had something about the world being on a turtles back. priests/could couldnt get married. Need i bring up the council of nicaea again? your scriptures you love so much were edited and changed at that council. The examples can go on ad infinum but lets just say that religion and science change over time, science with the better comprehension of how the universe works, religion either from politics or proof from science that their beliefs need to be modified.

Actually gvg socialism is an economic system not a govt like you say . However there is no set type of govt accociated with socialism, it could be pretty much any one at all. having said that the only EVIL type of govt (assuming you can admit some arent evil) that i think i would go for would be absolute dictatorship, but only if i was the dictator, failing that ill stick with representative democracy.

sigh Hambone i guess you didnt understand my post, i wont bother trying to reexplain it, suffice to say apples and oranges. yes the thread is evidence of gods design. once again there is no evidence of his design or evidence against god. the very best anyone has done with all this is prove the universe is an increadible complex thing. your best argument has been your personal story. if you had led with that it would have been a much shorter debate. im pretty sure everyone would have the same opinions they have now but it would have been quicker to get to this point.

good replies i agree with most of them, a couple i dont know. Only one i disagree with is J.D. Salinger. dont like him at all, reminds me of James Joyce. they are the only 2 famous writers i really dont like.

sigh after a brief period of nicety back to the nastiness. Hambone you claimed to be upset about people who have 1st year physics arguing with you. let me explain why i at least attack many of your statements on the science. Simple book called the republic by a guy named Plato. total garbage book by the way for what it says, but very interesting on how it says it. I have no doubt in a face to face debate plato would crush me. thing is, he keeps putting up false premises then uses them to prove his points. all the antangoists argue upon his terms and ignore the fact that the basic premise is wrong. to avoid going there i call you on bad science. D3K3 was talking about circular orbits, you then talk of mars and its eccentirc orbit than use its eccentric orbit as proof of why d3k3 comments on circular orbits dont make sense. ill let ya mull that one over im sure itll come to you. not trying to defend d3k3 here thats his business. got more but gotta go my daughter wants to play a game

ok i see where your coming from, shoulda explained that in your original answer. ok well dang is there a possibel wrong answer to this question?. Hey i got an idea, someone tell me what isnt the opposite of 6

Actually hambone this is looking like the best reason youve given yet to believe in god. It is a personal one, i think that is the only way anyone can justify their belief/disbelief in god.

yes hambone i would like to hear as well. i already asked why you became christian and not follow another religion, so i assume this will explain it. but for both unreality and hambone i dont think either of you can use what has been said here as evidence. Glad to hear there is an athiest here, more interesting. finding wolf tracks in the snow is evidence that a wolf passed by and by extrapolation a wolf is in the area. so far all i have heard is evidence that the universe is increadibly complex. that unlike wolf tracks does not point in either direction (god/athiesm) it is more akin to saying look there is snow, wolf tracks could be found in this snow, therefore wolves are nearby. either way your both making a leap of faith. Hambone, my dad plays in several bands, unfortunately i recieved my mothers musical abilities

Actually mevuc if you read my original post way way back when it is pretty much the same as yours. to paraphrase myself we have no proof that god exists or doesnt exist. all the evidence anyone has presented here could be just as well used by either side of the arguement. Where hambone and i fall out is when he gets his science wrong, or states his beliefs as facts. ie the proof of jesus being god.

I refuted your Proof of jesus resurection and pointed out a more plausible explanation the earth orbit is NOT circular, and a circular orbit is not necessarily a precondition of life. There is mounting evidence of the possibility that life once existed on mars. Then again this is all based on life existing in our current carbon based form. never seen any proof other forms cant exist. you claim gravity is holding the expansion/contaction of the universe in perfect balance. just not true so yeah that dont wash. you claim you admit evolution exists but far to often 2-3 posts later you attack evolution again. yes great post mevuc. funny how the believer in creation likes the post that basically says it is impossible for there to be any evidence of creation as that would be against the idea of faith

learn history christianity was spread by the sword as well, even neglecting the crusades, look at what happened in germany. and yes it is easier to believe in god but that doesnt make god more likely, also belief in god is NOT belief in your interventionist god only in some all powerful being creating the universe. it has been said before many peopel believe in god simply because they cant wrap their brains around the universe just being so they put it off on some other simpler(in the sense 1 single entity) thing having created it. If you base your belief on the fact that smarter people than you say there is a god what about those who are more intelligent than you who say he doesnt? havent refutred anything? ive refuted your proof jesus was resurected ive refuted your denial of evolution ive refuted your comprehenshion of earths orbit ive refuted your comprehension of gravity ive refuted your belief that the bible you read is exactly as written. hmm what other claims have you made? too lazy to go back and see them all. oh yeah ive refuted your claim that i beleive god does not exist (though i do KNOW with 100% certainty that god as you believe him to exist does not exist, so if your looking at it that way then ok ill throw ya a bone so to speak.) what you say is not rubbish to me im just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

the odds that god always existed and had no creator himself are even more astronomical than the universe always being. the china bit is just one more reason that jesus wasnt the son of god. i never brought jesus into this you did. i just point out that the belief that he is divine is silly. Again i have never tried to prove god doesnt exist. Your belief system however is without a doubt wrong (takes the odds you have of the universe just existing and exponetially increase by a factor of 1 to the power of infinity). i am just pointing out that everything you say does not in any way shape or form give any evedince to his existence. As to god sitting in front of me on a throne well i have no idea what my reaction would be, if it happens ill let ya know You have yet to refute 1 single point i have made, yet i have refuted all of yours. who is the one with foolish reasoning?

doh! i forgot Douglas Adams, thanx Izzy

yes gospels writen before council of nicaea my point is there were several versions the council came together and decided upon the offical church version, in so doing rewrote the gospels yet again. yes judea was a small place at the time relatively speaking was not even close to rome or alexandria. and again i point out china. If it were a lie it wouldnt have caught on? but you say that islam is a lie, it is way bigger there. what about hinduism or buddhism? all lies according to you yet they caught on. hate to use evil, but here goes: The big lie is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." The idea of quoting scientist who admit they have no clue how the universe was created has nothing to do with proving gods existence. your argument seems to be, we do not know the answer to this question therfore the only logical conclusion is that god created the universe. it can just as easily be turned around to. we do not know how god came into existence therefore he does not exist. neither is a logical argument.

D3K3 alread pointed most of that out, missed the bit about entropy though too busy pointing out the sillyness of saying evolution is a theory and not proven then trying to use the laws of thermodynamics to prove a point (they are theories as well) EDM about 3 days and coma stuff, sorry ya lost me there, i didnt know there was a 3 day rule on comas, must remember to inform everyone that happened to so they can fall back dead. also on same point, exactly why could jesus not have been in a coma? Hambone i asssume that you are aware that there was a long a bitter debate that was finally settled with a compromise at the council of nicaea 325 AD. way way after his death and so no living person to speak of? also since you wanted me to read an article claiming to prove jesus was god (which it didnt) heres an opposing view http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm I am not claiming to believe all that is written there, would have to do some independant research. as i said before i dont like just reading what 1 person says about what a 2nd person said. i prefer to go to the source. My point is just because someone writes something doesnt make it true. unless of course im the one writing

tTo parphrase judge Roy Snyder of the Simpsons I hearby order religion and science to stay 100 yards from each other

Yes after 3 days even after longer periods people HAVE woken up from apparent dead states. It is a fact sorry busted you again. again you say you can only get to heaven if you accept the bible as fact. this means you must listen to the people who tell you about the bible (literacy was not nearly as common as it is now) so again baboom! your point does the opposite of what you think it does. gravity. i didnt attack you point i attacked your science on gravity. no need to attack the point as its base is completely wrong. if ya want ill attack the point but then it is pointless to do so. yes the thread is called evidence of gods design. You asked me if i got any, i think thats a typo, i believe you meant to say do i have any evidence against gods design. i already said i dont. you however stared this thread and have yet to put up 1 single shred of evidence in favor of gods design. I mentioned in first post i find this topic fascinating. i'm not trying to anger you i'm trying to provoke thought.

Ok just a logical extension of the first sentence thread. What is/are your favorite author/s? Mine are: Victor Hugo (probably my favorite) Edgar allan Poe (greatest writer in the english language) Albert Camus (la Peste, a must read) Arther Koestler (simply brilliant) Winston Churchill (he was actually a very prodigous writer even though hes much more known for being a politician) J.R.R. Tolkien (best fantasy writer) Machiavelli (not nearly as evil as people think) Issac Asimov (does way more than just sci-fi but i enjoy all his stuff)

hambone i dont hate god i just KNOW that your twisted version is false. EVERY SINGLE ARGUEMENT YOU HAVE PROPOSED HAS A HOLE IN IT. and please please stop trying to use science. you seem to have no grasp of it and only read pseudo science from people who spend their time twisting distorting and trying to ridicule actual science/scientists. Evolution-you seem to have gotten it wrong Ressurection- you admit it could be natural occurence Gravity- your so far off on what is actually happening it isnt funny. earth circular orbit- wow learn a bit about actual astronmy. #7-read Dawh's post now to your circle argument. if man wrote scriptes how come he can only get to heaven by follwing them?? DUDE your missing the point. follwoing the scriptures has nothing to do with getting to heaven. again you try to prove the bible is real because it says it is so in the bible. seriously if you were gonna start a cult (all religions started as cults they were just succesful ones) then of course you should say that you have to follow the religion to get to heaven. otherwise why would anyone follow you? they wouldnt need you. your arguement that only divine intervention could make people write something that makes them indespenible is the exact opposite of what you are trying to get across. seriously please read what actual people write not just what someone writes about another persons writing. I just took a quick look at what you said to read. again look at Dawh's post. At best you can claim some clever writers but again the numbers dont hold up when translations are involved. you can claim that they do, but they dont. try doing the actual math yourself with an english/french/latin/greek bible. WHOOPS your math wizard doesnt translate so well. i know you wont do it because it puts a whole in another one of your arguements. Just like no one bothers to check the math on the age of the world using ESTIMATED ages of people in the bible. It takes to much effort and besides if you came up with a different number it would cast doubt on the bible so you will just accept it as truth.

I never claimed to know how the universe began like i said im an agnostic. please look up the term you seem to confuse it with athiest. if you believe the universe is to complex to have just been and therefore must be created then who created god. seems he must of necessity be more complex than the universe and therefore must have been created. im just pointing out a circular argument here. you cant explain the universe so you say god made it. no need to explain god he jsut is. FYI all mythologies were created to explain the world. INCLUDINg JUDAISM! genesis is just another myth of creation. no better or worse than the others. i choose to believe therefore i know? well i know your bible is just a story. you believe it is the divine word, yet i know it is not. again still waiting for reasons why hambone believes in christianity and not in the other religions. as to studying the bible why? i KNOW it is NOT the word of god. i have read enough to know that. just as hambone knows enough about other religions to know they are false. I do know 1 person who has intensivly studied the bible. he has a doctorate in theology and teaches at a christian college. but darn it all he isnt a christian or even an agnostic hes 100% athiest. knows the bible insiode and out better than most priests yet he knows it all bunk too. as to the errors in the bible i dont think you understand how major they must be. a small insignificant error can be a huge difference. you say where the translations differ are noted but you dont realize that they are talking of translations from latin to english and ignore the previous errors that may have occured. also there are errors of ommision and errors in transcription. dont believe me? read up on the anglo saxon chronicles. same story written over a period of several hundred years many copies (partial in most case due to ravages of time/misfotune) and yet though basically the parts tell the same history of britain there are differences. Again you believe in jesus i KNOW he was just a man. you claim to have proof and yet not 1 single post by any of you pro christians has even come close to do anything but prove that you just want to believe something. hambone continues to cite the complexity of the univers and often gets science of it wrong, yet complexity doesnt prove gods existence it only proves the universe is complex

sorry earth does not have a circular orbit, though circular or eliptical i see no relation to what it has to do with god. As to freezing part of the year please come up and visit me in january. aparently according to you it doesnt freeze here?? and using quotes from the bible to prove that the bible is correct is well so mind numbingly bizzare it makes no sense. umm gravity?? wtf?? the universe is still expanding. there is still debate as to weather that can continue forever or the universe will fall back and collapse upon itself one day? so again no proof of god. abraham lincon? so according to your view god wanted america to have slavery? wasnt the time? fyi britain banne dslavery long long before america and activly pursued the slave trade to try and stop it. guess they were closer to god? admit it you believe the bible because you want to. You do not know how the universe was created so you decided that you would let others tell you. again as i said im an agnostic i dont know if there is a god or not and frankly find it such hubris on the part of people who not only think there is a god but claim to know what his thoughts are. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that your religious beliefs are wrong. you think you are right, but again every time you throw a point down i have shown how it is more plausible that you are wrong than right. still waiting for proof on jesus resurection . why did it matter that jesus was born to jews? why not chinese? is god racist does he not like orientals? have you read the iliad? it is a historical document and mentions the greek gods. we know that the trojan war happened therefore i guess the greek gods must be real.

sigh hambone you refuse to actually listen to what the theory of evolution is or even read the descent of man. Darwin didnt say we descended from apes, he said that at some point in the past we shared a common ancestory. the implication is that apes and humans both evolved on similar but different paths. creationists continue, since the scopes monkey trial, to say that apes were our ancestors according to darwinians. that is a blatant misrepresentation. your stuff about lucy jsut says that some guy doesnt think lucy is the missing link, how does that prove a hoax? EDM from your reply i will assume that i was correct the bible never said god created other people it just started talking about other people. you seem to be a litteral reader of the bible. so ill call you on that. if you believe everything in the bible is exactly what happened. despite the fact that you have never ever ever ever actually read the real bible in your entire life and never will(yes please call me on that ive already explained but am willing to do so again), than if something is not in there you can not just invent it to go along with your wild theories. again why was jesus in backwards place 2k years ago and not china 6k years ago? only logical answer: because he wasnt the son of god hmm simple logic. if 1+1=2 and 1+1+1=3 then 1+2=3 simple enough for ya?

Well there is your problem you think historical fiction is fact. sorry dude jesus was a man not a god. you still havent answere dabout the poor slobs who for millenia had no chance of elarnign fo jesus grace to save them. as to not having read the bible i have read parts of it it is too ridiculous to believe. also im sure you will agree genesis (the part this thread si supposed to deal with) is from the old testament whiel the jesus stuff is all from the new testament. hamboen dont need to read any opther religous texts cause his one true god (same as jew ands muslim god buddy) only needs the new testament (even though hes actually arguing old testament sillyness) one more time hambone has not proven jesus awoke from the dead. despite his belief he has. so no proof jesus is god. if god created so many other people why are they unnamed? also please tell me where it says they were created, in my admittedly limited bible study i recall only that other peopel were just added in and no where does iot says god created them they were more like sitcom characters that just show up with no explanation and peopel dont ask who tehy are they just go with it. if you do quote where it says god created other people i will take that back but again a work of fiction is still a work of fiction. YOU HAVE NO PROOF IT IS REAL AND NEVER EVER WILL. ye si know i have no proof it isnt but simple logic forces the conclusion that it is all hogwash

first part sorry doesnt wash. jesus small out of the way place where most people could never in their lifetiomes or many many generations lives ever hear of him, in fact untill the 1800's the majority of the population of earth had absolutely no way of ever even hearing of jesus. hmm 1800 years of near total neglect?? sorry your god ideas fail. lets go the other way, all the people who died before jesus. what about them? nope god dont give a rats a** about them either? doh religious belief dies a painful death to logic again adam and eve i love this, by naming them i suppose you believe earth if 6k years old unlike hambone who admitted it wasnt. ok god created adam and eve then had only 2 sons and somehow this populated the earth?? little incest maybe eve slept with her sons then? also how come people look so different? could evolution have made so many changes in 6k years or did god just change the children of incestous eve? Hamboen nothigng you have said proves jesus died and was reborn. It only proves people thought he was dead. again doesnt even prove he was reborn or woke up from a coma. i will grant you he was crucified and entombed. but not resurected or woken up. sorry my statement is still more likely than yours by a mmagnitude that makes winning the lottery every week of your life seem more probable. the bit about life and a rock i'm sorry to once again crush your little pat saying but rocks do evolve and change. requires outside stimulus to do so but then so does life.