plasmid

A parable with Diotima would be a little tricky to do safely. I'll try to make the subject matter she was mentioned in a bit more palatable to a modern audience, sacrificing a little historical accuracy. This one takes place pretty early on in the story. Diotima was restless after the day's discussion with the six others. Unable to sleep, she began to pace. Her thoughts were interrupted by sounds from a neighboring room, and because she was expecting no visitors she went to investigate. There she found one of her traveling companions lying with a local man who Diotima knew spoke sweetly to the women. Diotima left them for the night, going unnoticed, but the next morning she approached her fellow traveler. "Last night, when you were visited by that local man, do you think you were acting wisely with him?" Knowing that she had been discovered, she was too embarrassed to answer, so Diotima continued, "Such men are but beggars whose only art is casting illusions to draw you near. They will leave you with nothing save an illness or a child with no father. You would do well to avoid them." "Diotima, surely he loved me! He told me things I had never heard from any man before. I listened to my heart, and it told me to be with him." But as soon as the words left her mouth, the traveler thought the situation over and realized that she was acting foolishly and recanted. Diotima continued, "Their behavior springs from a deep wish to live forever. Not being capable of this, they instead seek to live forever through their seed. But even that is failing to understand the situation. We have long known that it is not our flesh but our ideas that most define who we are, and such men are foolish enough to spread their flesh but do not pass on their ideas." The traveler then said, "Were he only like us, seekers of truth. Surely we will find the answers, and as the others have said we will not have to settle for passing on our ideas to others because we will have eternal life itself." Diotima recalled the previous day's discussion and responded, "It does not seem that they are entirely correct. The Essence is no god like Zeus, and we do not simply live in its presence for all eternity. The Essence is something else entirely. It does not drive the sun like Apollo with a chariot and horses, and it does not fire an arrow like Cupid. Instead, the Essence is more like the waves and the wind, but reaching into everything around us. After we die, we do not live as we do now in a new land with the Essence; it would be more accurate to say that we join the Essence by becoming a part of it." "Diotima, do you mean that we will have the powers of a god after we die? If this were true, imagine the things we could do. We would be able to so many great things for the world." As Diotima prepared to rejoin the others for the day she said, "You don't realize your own potential now. You might not have the power of the seas and wind, but you have your two hands. If you want to do great acts for the world, then now is the time." And so she left to meet the others. This also presents the body and its thoughts as if they're two separate things, and Diotima seems to have been credited as making the distinction, but that might not be where we want Phronism to go. If it's harmless, it might contribute to historical credibility, but if not we can strike it from the parable. NB: I know the ancients attributed emotions to weird organs sometimes. Is it safe to have the heart be the organ where love originates, or did that come from the spleen or pancreas or something back in 500 BC?

I think James is on a reasonable track, although he has yet to prove that there aren't any situations in which his approach might fail. If EACH of the 39 prisoners would carry an extra bit of information, the total number of possibilities would be 239 * 439 = 2117, which is greater than 2100. The only thing he has left to prove is that there aren't any arrangements of balls where you would need to have a total of more than 16+5 prisoners representing either "high" or "low" combinations. (I'm not convinced that it's true myself, and until then I'm claiming that my solution on post #34 is the only proven one so far, although an easier implementation with a more elegant answer would be desirable.)

True, but James did something rather clever: not all the prisoners are identical. Apparently, he's assuming that the prisoners can go in whatever order they wish, and the identity of the prisoner going into room B carries some information. I haven't calculated how much more information he gets with that approach, though... I'm sorry, but I can't totally follow how the implementation would work as it's currently stated.

Here's a way of calculating numbers before the sun burns out.

BTW Bushindo, if you don't want people using "silence" as a fifth possible means of communication, you'd better tell everyone.

Jazz Man got the answer I had in mind. And kudos as well to plainglazed for another solution that fit the original version of the riddle.

Chicory went down that route, and it's quite close to the answer, although like I said that specific activity is one I'm not involved in and I had to look up what those things are. And it wouldn't explain the cruising patrols. I'll go ahead and add a couple more lines. I've got a hole straight through my head But haven't been slaughtered, so don't be misled For I'll be nimble, I'll be quick Jump over the ridges to hang with my click When I'm across, ignite the blast Encased in your steel with defense unsurpassed Don't tell me it would be uncool Perhaps you've forgotten to follow the rule Or squeezed the trigger, you control Whether you're hunted by cruising patrols Now make your way through dicey straits Should reflexes fail you, disaster awaits So cross your heart don't hope to die When carnage ensues you'd better not fly Just hold your ground, I'll cut no slack You shouldn't deplore me for holding you back And once you've lost the will to roam With reeling abandon I'll slither back home

I don't see how a soul would be a problem. The "I think, therefore I am" argument seems proof enough that something conscious exists, and defining a soul as that conscious thing seems safe enough. Or do you think the term "soul" just carries too much other baggage that would bias how people would interpret it? If so, we could come up with another term for the conscious entity that people carry around that rejoins the Essence upon their death. The "life with the Essence" was me being sloppy while I was trying to make this fit with Jainism as much as possible. I'll fix that and start a parable archive in the spoiler. I didn't mean to imply that there were a finite number of distinct levels of Nirvana, it just would've been tough to explain within a parable that the possibilities for existence with the Essence are actually on a continuous rather than a discrete integer scale. If there is an easy way of clarifying it in the parable without it getting too sidetracked then we can go ahead and modify it. And it's important to make these parables right if they're going to be part of the scripture, so don't hold any punches and feel free to revise. On to the next one. The Jainist principle of Anekantavada is almost exactly the same principle we're trying to promote with Phronism's denominational system and deference of outside opinions (I guess it wasn't really unique after all), so I'll call on Mahavira again. As Mahavira was returning home, he saw in the distance a man who he recognized from a gathering of those who now called themselves "Phronists". Drawing nearer Mahavira watched as the man drew out from his robe a branch, and baring his back, he began to beat himself with it. When Mahavira drew nearer, he asked the man why he was flogging himself. "Mahavira," the man said, "I am practicing ascetic ways. I am forsaking my own worldly pleasures and comforts so that I might achieve loftier goals." Mahavira saw that the man did not fully understand his actions, but he did not correct the man himself. Indeed, Mahavira knew that although he might be able to correct this one mistake, he would not always be there to correct every mistake the man might make. So instead, Mahavira asked "Have you spoken with any of the others about this? Do they agree that striking yourself is a wise path?" The man answered, "No, but the other Phronists are only men just as I am a man. If we should disagree, then who is to say which of us is right and which is wrong? I have faith that my course is wise." Mahavira saw onlookers who watched as the man flogged himself, and he pressed the man again, "Look around you. Do you see those people over there staring at you? What do you suppose they think of your acts?" The man responded, "Why should I care what they think of my acts? They are not even Phronists! Their words are useless to me." At this Mahavira became most concerned, and he called the onlookers forth and explained what the man was doing, and asked them if they thought it was wise. One of them said, "This seems foolish. You are beating yourself to deny yourself comfort, but what are you accomplishing? If you wish to deny yourself comfort, then go plow a field. Then you would not only be practicing asceticism, but you would produce a harvest in the Autumn." After the onlooker left, Mahavira asked the man what he thought of the advice. Again the man said that the onlooker's words were useless because he was not a Phronist. Then Mahavira said, "Would you have accepted the same words had they come from my mouth? Because I tell you truthfully, I would have said the same thing." The man was silent for a moment, but then asked "Surely you do not want me to live my life by the whims of an outsider, do you?" Mahavira answered, "Had the man mocked you, or tried to swindle you, or told you that his God has other commandments then you should ignore him, for his God is likely a figment of his imagination. But this man spoke to you as an outsider with no malice toward you, no eagerness to see you make a fool of yourself, and with full sincerity. You should consider such advice carefully. Beyond that, he gave reasoning with his words. Nowhere have we said that Phronists are always right, nor have we said that non-believers are always wrong. Reason is the best guidance that humans have, so do not forsake it no matter where it comes from." You know, I think we ought to give the "extras" in these parables names instead of just calling them men and women. Anyone know a good place to look up common names in various regions at about 500 BC?

I'm going to be out of town in the latter part of next week to hunt for apartments with unknown accessibility to the internet so I won't be able to play, but if you'd like you can hit reply and then copy and paste these instructions in a new thread, and of course edit them if anything could use editing: This is a version of the game Dots (see this thread) where people take turns drawing lines between dots on a grid, and score points by making complete boxes out of the lines. But now we're making things a bit harder by taking it to three dimensions. Instead of drawing lines to form some squares, we're drawing planes to make some cubes. This first attempt at it will have a relatively simple grid: 4 cubes across, 4 cubes up-and-down, and 1 cube deep. A lot like the old 2-D version, except that now each cube also has a top and a bottom "lid" that needs to be filled in (as well as the usual four sides) before you can score it. The game board looks like this at the start. Top lids Boxes Bottom lids + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + The grid labeled "Boxes" is a cross-section through the middle of the grid of cubes, much like the grid with a regular game of dots. The two new grids labeled "Top lids" and "Bottom lids" are where you put the two other planes on the top and the bottom of each cube to form the 3-D boxes. It might be easier to see than to explain: here's a grid after a few turns have been taken. Top lids Boxes Bottom lids + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +--+--+ + + + + + + XX | | | XX XX + + + + + + + +--+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + XX | + + + + + + + +--+ + + + + + + The box in the middle-upper-right that has all four sides in place hasn't been scored yet because it doesn't have a top lid. Eventually the players could start scoring boxes (and putting their initials insite the boxes they've scored) like so Top lids Boxes Bottom lids + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +--+--+ + + + + + + XX XX |Me|Me| XX XX + + + + + + +--+--+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +--+ + + + + + + XX |Yu| XX + + + + + + + +--+ + + + + + + One note about the actual mechanics of playing the game: the software running this forum doesn't cooperate with editing fixed-width pictures like this very well, so follow these steps to make sure all goes smoothly when you take your turn: Open your favorite little text editor (like Notepad or Wordpad or whatever Macs use) and change your font to something fixed-width (like Courier New). Then before you reply to the previous post, copy the game board from the Code box and paste it into your text editor. Then add your line (or lid), and if you completed a cube, then add your initials to the middle of it. Once you're done with the text editor, hit Reply and copy and paste the game board into the message, and then highlight everything and press the "Wrap in code tags" button on the top of the Brainden editor pane right above the area where you type. It might sound like a lot when you see the instructions written out, but it's really not that bad. If you do score a cube, then add another line (or lid) on the same turn, and if that scores another cube then add another, etc., as long as you keep scoring cubes.

You mean one of these? No. Not that either.

If you come across any other survivors, force them to call you by name and not just say "hey, you". If you're never called by name, then you're obviously just an extra and will not be long for this world. Better yet, make sure that both your first and your last names are used at some point. Usually only the stars get such treatment, and that will vastly increase your chances of surviving.

Perhaps the rotary kind would have a hole at the pivot, but not necessarily, and I'd be reluctant to write a riddle with such an invisible clue. And I'm not sure how it would fit the third-to-last line. Wrong on so many levels... not that I don't appreciate the humor, mind you.

That second one works quite well because it's quite close to the one you got earlier, which does fit the riddle even though it wasn't the answer I had in mind. And that one works quite well because it's getting very close to the answer I had in mind. That's something I hadn't thought of since I don't participate in the activity, but it wouldn't explain the cruising patrols.

x--x--x--x--x--x |A |A |p |p |p | x--x--x--x--x--x |A |A |p |p |p | x--x--x--x--x--x |A |A | | x--x--x x--x x |GM|GM| | x--x--x--x--x x |GM|GM|GM| | x--x--x--x--x--x I think GM forgot to draw 32,33 also At any rate, I've got 9, 10 10, 16 11, 17 11, 12 5, 11 4, 5 34, 35

To come if it hasn't been found after about 24 hours of guesses. Or maybe a few more lines of clues first.

And now I am sure that none of those are even close to correct. Not any of those. John B and plainglazed had gone down those routes. The second one does fit the riddle well, although neither are answer I had in mind.

I'm not aware of any triggers on kites, although it fits much of the rest of the riddle well. Plainglazed's answer is not what I had in mind, but I've got to hand it to you, it can fit the riddle if the "you" I'm talking to is allowed to shift (and it often is). I might have to do a rewrite sometime to exclude it as a possible answer. The answer I had in mind hasn't been found yet though.

Hmm, it's a weird fit to some of the clues, and leaves some of them just sort of hanging. But there's nothing that really shoots that answer down. I guess I should have titled the riddle "I'm not in the army". There's a better answer out there.

Looks like fileobrother's boss walked in as he was typing. That's not where this one's going.

I've got a hole straight through my head But haven't been slaughtered, so don't be misled For I'll be nimble, I'll be quick Cross over the ridges to hang with my click Don't tell me it would be uncool Perhaps you've forgotten to follow the rule Or squeezed the trigger, you control Whether you're hunted by cruising patrols So cross your heart don't hope to die When carnage ensues you'd better not fly Just hold your ground, I'll cut no slack You shouldn't deplore me for holding you back And once you've lost the will to roam With reeling abandon I'll slither back home

On with re-writing the parables. With the set of people we have meeting at Samarkand, it seems like a no-brainer to make a Jainist or Buddhist talk about the "afterlife" experience as part of the Essence, since that has really strong parallels to Nirvana or Moksa. That, and apparently the teachings of both Buddah and Mahavira were passed down only through oral traditions for a few hundred years until they were recorded, a perfect setup for those related to Phronism to have been carried on by the Phronists and forgotten by others. I think I'll let Mahavira talk about the Nirvana-like experience, and leave Buddah free to talk about the middle way since it's closer to Phronist ideals than the more ascetic Jainist approach (or maybe Zoroasterism would be better yet), although Mahavira might appear again to talk about Anekantavada as it relates to a denominational system and getting views from outsiders. Unfortunately, the Jainists got it a little wrong: everyone reaches a Moksa-like state when they die, it's just that Moksa is only truly blissful if you've led a great life and is dull if you've been a slave to your base cravings. Mahavira came upon a woman in Samarkand who he found to be weeping, and seeking to comfort her, he asked why she wept. The woman answered that her husband had died, struck down by fever and festering boils, and she was sorrowful over the suffering he faced in his final days. But she wept most of all because, although her husband was a good man, he found little but suffering in this life. "Do you believe, then, that your husband's soul is gone? Far be it from the truth. At the end of the stream of life is a return to the Essence from which life is drawn. Do not grieve if your husband has returned." But the woman continued to lament, for she believed that her husband would only continue to suffer in his life with the Essence just as he had suffered in his life on Earth. Mahavira asked her, "Was your husband brutal, or a liar, or a thief, or a glutton, or full of avarice?" The woman answered that he was none of these. "Then his existence now with the Essence is free of pain and disease," said Mahavira, "Now tell me: was your husband faithful, and was he wise, and did he conduct himself well at all times?" The woman answered that he was. "Then at the end of his stream of existence here, in his existence with the Essence, is a safe and happy and quiet place." At this, the woman began to wonder if her husband might have attained Moksa, and asked if he had reached a state of eternal bliss. Mahavira asked, "How had your husband lived and even perceived his life? Did he see pleasure and pursue it, and did he see pain and try to avoid it? Or did he instead see his duty, and carry it out faithfully regardless of the pleasures or pains it might bring?" This the woman could not answer. "Then I cannot tell you whether he is in eternal bliss with the Essence," Mahavira answered, "but know this: we all return to the Essence at some time, and I have told you now what must be done to achieve the ultimate state with the Essence. You yourself have the opportunity to do so if you follow this path, as do all those around you. Do so, and teach others to do likewise." Tailored a bit to Jainist teachings, especially with the specific questions he asks her, but definitely more Phronist than Jainist since there are potentially different levels of Moksa and no reincarnation. (Writing these is kinda tougher when I've gotta keep it credible.)

x--x--x x x--x | | | x--x x x--x x | | | x x x--x--x--x | | | x--x--x x--x x | | | x x x x--x x | | | | | x x x--x x--x 33, 34 Let the games begin

I think I can give this one to Chess Vixen.