[Guest]

It seems there is a lot of controversy over this topic on Brainden.... Understandable... Well I just mean spiritual as in God but also as in ghosts and things. What is your opinion?

[Magic_luver101]

your time is not up until U die...then U will be reincarnated as that child 2 continue your work with them...as long as U believe...how long has it been?...at a certian point your mind 4gets how to believe...and your heart how 2 listen...*cries 4 all those who have reached this point*...if U reach this point it is harder to believe the next time around...

i agree it is a sad day the ploution is slowly destroying my Water Kingdom

(i am more awere of water and fire creaters)

do U believe in reincarnation?...

Yes i hope to come back as a water angle so i am trying to do my best with this life if i dont sucsead this time maby next but i hope i never lose the magic

R U a believer?...if not please stop mocking us...

there are better ways to put your comment i find is slightly offencive

[Guest]

Magic, your beliefs seem simalar to my previous ones. I am athiest now!

[Izzy]

Magic, your beliefs seem simalar to my previous ones. I am athiest now!

*Smiles for a successful internet-conversion when they so rarely happen*

Magic, I can't make out a word you said.

[Magic_luver101]

*Smiles for a successful internet-conversion when they so rarely happen*

Magic, I can't make out a word you said.

ya i'm deslexic and to make maders worse i have a wicked bad cold and am on cold meds the room is spining and i only took half a dose good lord am i a light wight of what

[Guest]

*Smiles for a successful internet-conversion when they so rarely happen*

Magic, I can't make out a word you said.

ya i'm deslexic and to make maders worse i have a wicked bad cold and am on cold meds the room is spining and i only took half a dose good lord am i a light wight of what

Oh, don't feel bad magic!

I owe ya one Izzy!

[Guest]

i do bvealave in God(s) i am a strong bleaver in the supernatral and the mythical too

To me it does not matter if you dont have a religion but I belawe that everyone need a highre power or high powers for me i belave multipal "Gods"

i an also a ferm belaver in Centaurian Hippogriphicampcanpire's if you do not know what it is please dont ask it will take to lonk to explane.

but i also am a sitentiest so when i am working in both math and scince it becomes only the things i can prove are true but theni finish and go back to being a belaver

As a sufferer of dyslexia Magic_luver101, you should be the first to make ample use of a spell check program.

I make use of one, not because I am dyslexic (I'm not) but because my spelling (esp when typing) is just atrociously bad.

Why do you believe that it is important to believe in a "higher power"?

Is it more important than honestly considering if it's true?

In other words if it isn't true, and there are no "higher powers" would it still be important that everyone believe that there were anyway? (Important to believe a falsity, a lie?!)

And what consequences do you think follows if one doesn't? (As one who doesn't, perhaps I could confirm for you whether your views on that are correct. )

[Guest]

...I don't believ in a 'higher power' so much as I believe that there are 'forces' out there that affect our everyday lives...such as fate and karma...and the farieshelp a little to...

'Mythical Creatures' topic

[Guest]

I believe in God simply because without some higher power, some sort of accountability in the end for what we've done in life, then this is all pointless.

I know that you're gonna harp on me for saying this, but what I'm saying is 100% true and beyond any arguement or doubt.

Without some design, if all life was randomly created, than nothing you or I will ever do will have any real affect on anything ever. Period.

There is no point to doing anything, even something like curing cancer, if we all just die and fade away.

I don't believe in God because there's loads of scientific proof, that wouldn't make any sense. We don't get kudos because we belive a table exists, it's right there and anyone can see it (please don't reply with any Matrix alternate existence crap). If there was lots of proof about God, then what's the big deal? We wouldn't have earned anything. Don't trust anyone who says that believing is easy. It's not. Even the greatest heroes from the Bible fought with God many times. Believing in God is a struggle, as it should be. And if we emerge from that struggle without compromising our beliefs, then we go to Heaven.

There's a reason it's called Faith, not Proof.

I will tell you right now, I'm losing it. For the past few years I've felt my sanity begin to slip. And not just some "American Psycho" crap, stuff's happening that I can't even begin to explain. Some of it has really stressed my relationship with Christ, and in some ways, enhanced it. But overall, I am stronger because of God.

In all seriousness, were it not for the fear of Hell, I would have ended my life a long time ago.

[Izzy]

Gah I need to sleep. Should not be posting. Bad Izzy. Grah.

Dude, I really want you to look into this forum. Post an intro thread, the above will do fine. I don't want this to come off the wrong way and discourage you from showing up, but we can help. The fear and concept of Hell is probably the most disgusting thing to do with Christianity, and from what I understand in the above, is the only thing keeping you Christian.

*Needs sleep*

Bah.

[Guest]

I believe in God simply because without some higher power, some sort of accountability in the end for what we've done in life, then this is all pointless.

Yes, that is a common one: It's called The Appeal to Consequences Logical Fallacy.

And amounts to "I think that without {My favourite imaginary friend} there would be no one to tell off the bad people who were naughty, or reward us if we were good little boys and girls after we die. And that would be sad, I don't like that idea. Therefore We do survive our own deaths, and there is someone 'up there' who rewards and punishes in the 'afterlife.'"

A complete Non Sequitur based on nothing but wishful thinking!

Seriously?! It's true because you want it to be true, or you don't LIKE the idea that it isn't true?!

My turn :

I believe in a giant diamond being buried in my backyard simply because without some buried bling, some sort of finanical reward would not be there for me when I come to need it, then this is all pointless.

You are wrong in that final conclusion, you just have to grow up and find your own "point", your own purposes and meanings. But ever stop to think that there might not be any "ultimate" point? And that no matter how much you personally don't like the idea, reality does not owe you anything, so it might be the case anyway? Or do you think that just because you personally want it to be true, the universe will oblige your desires and grant it to you?!

Perhaps you might weigh this up against the primitive belief that the world MUST be flat because if it wasn't then people would fall off the bottom!

Or that;

"I believe in demons simply because without some kind if invisible spirits, the diseases we get would not be caused by these spirits punishing the wicked, then all of this disease is pointless." [That really is how people thought when Germ Theory was first proposed.]

I know that you're gonna harp on me for saying this, but what I'm saying is 100% true and beyond any arguement or doubt.

Why do people think that simply asserting that what they say is "100% true and beyond any argument or doubt" solves and closes the issue?!

Since I started in that manner

"The moon IS made of Green Cheese! But before you think you can argue against this; realise that what I'm saying is 100% true and beyond any argument or doubt. Case closed, so there!"

Without some design, if all life was randomly created, than nothing you or I will ever do will have any real affect on anything ever. Period.

Creationist Straw Man canard.

It is not Design or random chance. That is a False Dilemma devised by creationist apologists.

Which uses a confused and inane Straw Man image of evolution (and science) in order to baffle believers and the scientifically illiterate public with such outright lies.

There is no point to doing anything, even something like curing cancer, if we all just die and fade away.

Really? I am sorry. Is YOUR life really so wretched and meaningless that you see no value in it whatsoever, that you have to imagine some mystical fantasy realm exists "beyond" in order to get any sense of purpose, meaning or value?!

I know that this is why many people of "low station" such as (former and current) slave populations (such as the U.S. African slave population) and the otherwise downtrodden, often take to such beliefs readily and with a passion and. It is really quite sad. And it highlights that this belief is based on wishful thinking and the willingness to cling to any offered "rope of hope" no matter how insubstantial. ON imagination and emotion bereft of reason.

I don't believe in God because there's loads of scientific proof, that wouldn't make any sense.

Um what?

So it "makes no sense" to believe in something if there is god reason to do so?!

You should only believe in things for NO reason then?! You are making my head hurt.

We don't get kudos because we belive a table exists, it's right there and anyone can see it (please don't reply with any Matrix alternate existence crap).

Wouldn't dream of it. No need for such deep philosophy for this one.

If there was lots of proof about God, then what's the big deal? We wouldn't have earned anything. Don't trust anyone who says that believing is easy. It's not. Even the greatest heroes from the Bible fought with God many times. Believing in God is a struggle, as it should be.

Oh, I've heard this one before. It's a laugh riot!

They actually believe that the less reason to believe something, the better! And they even go so far as to assert that in some way the complete lack of evidence or reason is itself a subtle form of evidence! No really, I'm not kidding folks!

And if we emerge from that struggle without compromising our beliefs, then we go to Heaven.

Translation: Dogmatic, fixed, stagnant belief is a good thing! A "Good believer" doesn't let trifles by evidence change there mind.

Listen up folks: Believe that the world is flat. Don't let any of that evidence, of ships going over the horizon, spaceships taking photos of the Earth as a sphere or any of the mountains of evidence, change your mind! Just believe Believe Believe! And you will get this shiny prize (that I can't show you right now, but I promise it's real. Just believe that one as well!)

Listen Marinja; this "heaven promise" canard is just ANOTHER The Appeal to Consequences Logical Fallacy.

his one promises you a consequence (the reward of Heaven) if you believe the claim. It doesn't even bother to defend the claim. It's like this (another analogy - I know, you just bring them out in me):

I am your god and you must give me all of your worldly possessions. I won' bother proving that at all, but if you believe me, and believe absolutely without doubt or question, you will be rewarded after you die, with wonders beyond imaging! So let's get things started Marinja; what's your bank account number?

If you can find the flaw in that one, think about what it says for your claim.

There's a reason it's called Faith, not Proof.

Indeed there is:

Faith = Belief through the (wilful) abandonment of Reason.

That means that one ignores proof and evidence. That one relies solely on emotion-(personal desires and fears, like being rewarded with heaven or punished with hell or the denial of heaven, and imagination - Just Imagine this claimed but evidence free Heaven place and that you can really survive your own death, don't bother actually thinking about whether there is any reason t o think that any of it is true or not.

You (and others) might be interested on this post I made on the topic of Faith: Debate commentary: Faith barrier to Truth?

Or this one here

Or try the Bible: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (KJV; Hebrews 11:1)

Which parses out to mean Faith is belief based on emotion (hope) and imagination (evidence you only imagine is there - "not seen.) But not the third member of the human mind trio: Reason!

I will tell you right now, I'm losing it. For the past few years I've felt my sanity begin to slip. And not just some "American Psycho" crap, stuff's happening that I can't even begin to explain. Some of it has really stressed my relationship with Christ, and in some ways, enhanced it. But overall, I am stronger because of God.

In all seriousness, were it not for the fear of Hell, I would have ended my life a long time ago.

That's a crying shame. I suffer from Depression myself.

Personally; if you want to rely on your happy little delusion to get you through the night, go right ahead. Some of us prefer to see what reality has to offer, but to each there own.

The only reason I argue against what you have said here is that you have chosen to go that one unacceptable step further: And tried to push your emotion and imagination driven, reason free, delusions on to others. You have tried to argue and reason (while at the same time belittling reason itself! Work that one out ) that your belief should be accepted and taken up by others.

In closing: No thanks Marinja; I will not be abandoning reason and critical thinking in favour of irrational belief, not today. Thanks for the offer though. Buh bye.

[Guest]

I believe in God simply because without some higher power, some sort of accountability in the end for what we've done in life, then this is all pointless.

Yes, that is a common one: It's called The Appeal to Consequences Logical Fallacy.

And amounts to "I think that without {My favourite imaginary friend} there would be no one to tell off the bad people who were naughty, or reward us if we were good little boys and girls after we die. And that would be sad, I don't like that idea. Therefore We do survive our own deaths, and there is someone 'up there' who rewards and punishes in the 'afterlife.'"

A complete Non Sequitur based on nothing but wishful thinking!

Seriously?! It's true because you want it to be true, or you don't LIKE the idea that it isn't true?!

My turn :

I believe in a giant diamond being buried in my backyard simply because without some buried bling, some sort of finanical reward would not be there for me when I come to need it, then this is all pointless.

You are wrong in that final conclusion, you just have to grow up and find your own "point", your own purposes and meanings. But ever stop to think that there might not be any "ultimate" point? And that no matter how much you personally don't like the idea, reality does not owe you anything, so it might be the case anyway? Or do you think that just because you personally want it to be true, the universe will oblige your desires and grant it to you?!

Perhaps you might weigh this up against the primitive belief that the world MUST be flat because if it wasn't then people would fall off the bottom!

Or that;

"I believe in demons simply because without some kind if invisible spirits, the diseases we get would not be caused by these spirits punishing the wicked, then all of this disease is pointless." [That really is how people thought when Germ Theory was first proposed.]

I know that you're gonna harp on me for saying this, but what I'm saying is 100% true and beyond any arguement or doubt.

Why do people think that simply asserting that what they say is "100% true and beyond any argument or doubt" solves and closes the issue?!

Since I started in that manner

"The moon IS made of Green Cheese! But before you think you can argue against this; realise that what I'm saying is 100% true and beyond any argument or doubt. Case closed, so there!"

Without some design, if all life was randomly created, than nothing you or I will ever do will have any real affect on anything ever. Period.

Creationist Straw Man canard.

It is not Design or random chance. That is a False Dilemma devised by creationist apologists.

Which uses a confused and inane Straw Man image of evolution (and science) in order to baffle believers and the scientifically illiterate public with such outright lies.

There is no point to doing anything, even something like curing cancer, if we all just die and fade away.

Really? I am sorry. Is YOUR life really so wretched and meaningless that you see no value in it whatsoever, that you have to imagine some mystical fantasy realm exists "beyond" in order to get any sense of purpose, meaning or value?!

I know that this is why many people of "low station" such as (former and current) slave populations (such as the U.S. African slave population) and the otherwise downtrodden, often take to such beliefs readily and with a passion and. It is really quite sad. And it highlights that this belief is based on wishful thinking and the willingness to cling to any offered "rope of hope" no matter how insubstantial. On imagination and emotion bereft of reason.

I don't believe in God because there's loads of scientific proof, that wouldn't make any sense.

Um what?

So it "makes no sense" to believe in something if there is good reason to do so?!

You should only believe in things for NO reason then?! You are making my head hurt.

We don't get kudos because we belive a table exists, it's right there and anyone can see it (please don't reply with any Matrix alternate existence crap).

Wouldn't dream of it. No need for such deep philosophy for this one.

If there was lots of proof about God, then what's the big deal? We wouldn't have earned anything. Don't trust anyone who says that believing is easy. It's not. Even the greatest heroes from the Bible fought with God many times. Believing in God is a struggle, as it should be.

Oh, I've heard this one before. It's a laugh riot!

They actually believe that the less reason to believe something, the better! And they even go so far as to assert that in some way the complete lack of evidence or reason is itself a subtle form of evidence! No really, I'm not kidding folks!

And if we emerge from that struggle without compromising our beliefs, then we go to Heaven.

Translation: Dogmatic, fixed, stagnant belief is a good thing! A "Good believer" doesn't let trifles like evidence or truth (not to be confused with Truth^TM) change their mind. No siree!

Listen up folks: Believe that the world is flat. Don't let any of that evidence, of ships going over the horizon, spaceships taking photos of the Earth as a sphere or any of the mountains of evidence, change your mind! Just believe Believe Believe! And you will get this shiny prize (that I can't show you right now, but I promise it's real. Just believe that one as well!)

Listen Marinja; this "heaven promise" canard is just ANOTHER Appeal to Consequences Logical Fallacy.

This one promises you a consequence (the reward of Heaven) if you believe the claim. It doesn't even bother to defend the claim. It's like this (another analogy - I know, you just bring them out in me):

I (ADParker) am your god; and you must give me all of your worldly possessions. I won't bother proving that at all (I wouldn't be so crass, and I am above such things anyway, and besides you wouldn't get to use Faith if I did that, and Faith is a Virtue don't you know?) , but if you believe me, and believe absolutely without doubt or question, you will be rewarded after you die, with wonders beyond imaging! So let's get things started Marinja; what's your bank account number?

If you can find the flaw in that one, think about what it says for your claim. (if you can't see it; just shoot me a PM with those account numbers )

There's a reason it's called Faith, not Proof.

Indeed there is:

Faith = Belief through the (wilful) abandonment of Reason.

That means that one ignores proof and evidence. That one relies solely on emotion - (personal desires and fears, like being rewarded with heaven or punished with hell or the denial of heaven, and imagination - Just Imagine this claimed but evidence free "Heaven" place is real, and that you can really survive your own death, don't bother actually thinking about whether there is any reason to think that any of it is true or not (that would spoil it, wouldn't it?)

You (and others) might be interested in this post I made on the topic of Faith: Debate commentary: Faith barrier to Truth?

Or this one here

Or try the Bible: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (KJV; Hebrews 11:1)

Which parses out to mean Faith is belief based on emotion (hope) and imagination (evidence you only imagine is there - "not seen.) But not the third member of the human mind trio: Reason!

Adding "Faith" to an argument is like adding "negative two (-2)" to an equation.

I will tell you right now, I'm losing it. For the past few years I've felt my sanity begin to slip. And not just some "American Psycho" crap, stuff's happening that I can't even begin to explain. Some of it has really stressed my relationship with Christ, and in some ways, enhanced it. But overall, I am stronger because of God.

In all seriousness, were it not for the fear of Hell, I would have ended my life a long time ago.

That's a crying shame. I suffer from Depression myself.

Personally; if you want to rely on your happy little delusion to get you through the night, go right ahead, I really don't care; enjoy your little fantasy world. Some of us prefer to see what reality has to offer, but to each their own.

The only reason I argue against what you have said here is that you have chosen to go that one unacceptable step further: And tried to push your emotion and imagination driven, reason free, delusions on to others. You have tried to argue and reason (while at the same time belittling reason itself! Work that one out ) that your belief should be accepted and taken up by others.

In closing: No thanks Marinja; I will not be abandoning reason and critical thinking in favour of irrational belief, not today. Thanks for the offer though. Buh bye.

[Izzy]

ADParker, I love how you have all the common fallacies memorized. Awesome post (as usual).

[Guest]

i know you guys believe your own thing, im just saying theres A LOT of proof of God. oh by the way if you wanna see a REAL christian look up the member DaddysPeachTree

he rocks

[Izzy]

Dath, see my post here (in another thread on this site) to understand what qualifies as a proof. If you have a proof, bring it forth. If you have any evidence, bring it forth. However, do not just claim that there's "A LOT" of proof out there for something, and then bring forth nothing compelling to justify your allegations.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Izzy

[Guest]

I'm sorry you guys, I really am. I feel like I'm wasting everyone's time (especially mine) and now I'll do it some more...

It's really easy to criticize line-by-line what I say if I can't say it right. I mean, if we were having this conversation face to face, it would be easy for me to convey my point. But me typing a little bit, then a couple of hours you type a little bit, then me again a day later, something gets lost in the translation, you know?

If you knew me at all, you'd know that I do not believe anything easily. (unfortunatly you don't; a con for debating over an internet forum). You assumed from what I wrote that I follow the bible blindly because faith, not reason, is all I need.Maybe that's my fault, maybe that's how it sounded. But that's not what I meant at all. When anything sounds the least bit fishy at church, I'm more than willing to interrupt and nag and nag until it makes sense. I've made pastors explain to me the point of prayer. I don't follow anything blindly: church, school, parents, friends, tv, anything. That's why this is so frustrating: you are all much more skilled and experienced at putting your thoughts into words than I.

By the way, Mr. or Mrs. ADParker, it's really easy to refute someone's statement's line by line, because they are easily taken out of context. There's a reason why I posted the whole thing and not just the single pieces you attacked one by one. That's why many of you Athiests get passages of the Bible wrong; you take little pieces and verses that are part of a larger message, which you fail to grasp (here I'm talking specifically to you, Izzy). And Parker, you and Jesus have something in common: you both love to talk with metaphors and parables. And with good reason! They're easiy to come up with but hard to prove wrong. I however, do notice flaws in your anecdotes of diamonds and cheesy moons. Unfortunatly, I've recently ceased to care what your opinions are and while this post may entertain you, it is more for my benifit to vent a little. (and I might be tempted to whip out a metaphor of my own, too)

After this I'm probably going to stop posting for this or any topic of such controversy. It's all such a waste of time. Here's basically what I've already expressed to Izzy:

Any religous debate on this or any website is a waste of time. Anyone going into a topic like this is going to carry some bias with them. No one contributing their opinion has any intention of being swayed by someone else's.

When I come across something in the Bible, I question it until it makes sense. When an Atheist comes across something in the Bible, they question it until it doesn't make sense. A theist looks for truth and an Athiest looks for lies, so naturally both find what they want.

Aethiests generaly have false views of theists (and vise versa). But I suppose that this cannot be helped, as we will naturally develop false views one another. I'm sure there are many people who call themselves "Athiests" who you believe give Athiesim a bad name, just as I know many people who call themselves "Christians" who give Christianinty a bad name...

We're all overly-biased hypocrites, many of the things you accuse of Theists I can show you Athiests acting similar (they employ the "straw man technique" just as often as you say we do). You pride yourselves in using logic, but just like everybody else, what's right only appeals to you when it follows your preconcieved notions of right. I swear, watching Brainden is like watching a political debate. I mean, you constantly talk about the "Catholic Church" being big and bad and brainwashing people, but it's all part of the cycle. Now it's the church that's being bullied, God's being taken out of everywhere (and I'm sure you're extremely proud of that). But there's a good chance it will swing the other way again. Just look at the Democrats and Republicans, both think they're right in their own eyes. For the last 8 years anyone who's not a Republican probably thinks they've abused their power. And anyone who's not a Democrat thinks their doing the same now. Neither party is always right. Try switching from CNN to Fox News back and forth while they cover the same big topic. It's like night and day! Neither tells you the truth (and neither wants to) they just want to recruit you. It's the same with Theists and Athiests, it's a party struggle. Seriously. The only theist in this topic you didn't bash was IDNE, because he straddled the fence, and only criticized a fellow (former) beliver). So he's given respect for being open-minded. I'm not saying being open-minded is bad, but rewarding it while not being it yourselves is...

Why doesn't anyone care about this here at Brainden? Because the Aethiests are clearly in control. It's like the freakin Super Bowl! If the crowd is 85% Pittsburgh, how can Arizona hope to win? But you Aethiests don't know/care about it cause your in control and everything seems fine. I complain because, well, my side's losing, and it pleads with a very small voice. If it were flip-flopped, you can bet that I'd be completely unaware while you're all either fighting or converting under pressure (I'm sorry, CSG).

But that's human nature. We're all equally stupid, selfish hypocritical you are. And if you don't belive that, than it just proves how stupid, selfish and hypocritical you are... (I bet you all can have a field day with that statement)

It's unfathomable how much more I have to say, but I've completely lost all interest in a topic that goes no where. Maybe if we were actually talking I might be willing to talk your faces off, but not like this. No one with any major belifefs (whether in a God or not) is going to come out of this with a life changing epiphany.

One last thing though- can we all stop being so crazy condescending? First off, I hate it when fellow Christians aren't making any headway in an arguement, they say something like "I'll pray for you." I really do hate that. It's like what? the conversation's over now because you can't say anything important to anyone but God now?

But on the flip side, Athiest's have this habit (present company not excluded) of assuming that Theists believe in God because their not as smart. Like the only thing separating believers from non-believers are IQ points? Really? You and I have just as many smart (and stupid) people in our ranks.

Can't we agree that althoug we disagree, we're equal?

Wow! I wrote a lot. Again... Sorry...

In closing:

is this a ninja? 'cause that's freakin' awesome!

[Guest]

I believe in God simply because without some higher power, some sort of accountability in the end for what we've done in life, then this is all pointless.

Why do we need to be held "accountable" when our lives are over? Aren't we accountable during our lives? It is true that people often get away with doing bad things. Life isn't always fair. Sometimes you just have to suck it up.

Why do you need an afterlife to give your life meaning? I see it the other way: what's the point of our brief corporeal existence if we're just going to spend eternity in Heaven anyway? Why don't we just kill babies immediately following baptism (or whatever ritual your god prefers), and send them straight to heaven? How does the existence of God or Heaven make your life on Earth any more meaningful?

I know that you're gonna harp on me for saying this, but what I'm saying is 100% true and beyond any arguement or doubt.

If it were 100% true, beyond any argument or doubt, nobody would argue or doubt it!!!

Without some design, if all life was randomly created, than nothing you or I will ever do will have any real affect on anything ever. Period.

It is commonly believed that evolutionary development is random. This is false. A particular genetic variation may be random, but the process of natural selection is anything but random.

In the grand scheme of things, it is probably true that nothing we ever do will have a measurable effect on the universe. I doubt that many, if any, of my ancestors did anything to significantly affect the course of events on this planet in the past thousand years or more, apart from producing the long forgotten offspring that led to me and my living relatives. And that's just our little teeny weeny Earth. Our (equally insignificant) sun is scheduled to die in a few billion years. If our species survives that long (which is doubtful) and we haven't been able to reach a suitably inhabitable planet by then (a long shot), then for the rest of eternity, nothing and nobody in the universe will ever know that we had existed. That's a scary thought, but does that mean that we might as well give up now and commit mass suicide? Of course not! Just because you won't be remembered forever doesn't mean there is nothing to live for.

There is no point to doing anything, even something like curing cancer, if we all just die and fade away.

You say that now, but if you get cancer, you might feel quite differently. The strongest urge of living things is simply to live. That's why it is easy to believe somebody who tells us what we want to hear: that we can survive death.

I don't believe in God because there's loads of scientific proof, that wouldn't make any sense.

Let me get this straight: if somebody could "scientifically" prove the existence of God, you would stop believing?

We don't get kudos because we belive a table exists, it's right there and anyone can see it (please don't reply with any Matrix alternate existence crap). If there was lots of proof about God, then what's the big deal? We wouldn't have earned anything. Don't trust anyone who says that believing is easy. It's not. Even the greatest heroes from the Bible fought with God many times. Believing in God is a struggle, as it should be. And if we emerge from that struggle without compromising our beliefs, then we go to Heaven.

There's a reason it's called Faith, not Proof.

Ah, right. I forgot that God was all about kudos and points. You get points if you build big buildings in His honor. You get points if you go to those buildings and sing songs about Him. You get points if you humiliate yourself in His worship. You get points if you do His bidding unquestioningly. You get points if you give Him money, so His minions can build more big buildings in His honor, and convert or smite non-believers.

You get points taken away if you do things He doesn't like, such as getting a haircut, or wearing blended fabric clothing. You get all your points taken away if you get angry with Him when He's a jerk, or question His judgement.

God loves us? That's not love, it's coercion, fear-mongering, blackmail, and tyranny -- the motivational tools of despots and dictators. If I'm wrong, and you do make it to heaven, tell Him I said He's an A$$hole.

I will tell you right now, I'm losing it. For the past few years I've felt my sanity begin to slip. And not just some "American Psycho" crap, stuff's happening that I can't even begin to explain. Some of it has really stressed my relationship with Christ, and in some ways, enhanced it. But overall, I am stronger because of God.

In all seriousness, were it not for the fear of Hell, I would have ended my life a long time ago.

I don't know what's more upsetting: that you had (have?) suicidal feelings, or that fear of Hell is the only thing that made you want to live. I can't tell yo how glad I am that I don't have to live with that kind of fear...

[Guest]

to Marinja

...I believe in God simply because without some higher power, some sort of accountability in the end for what we've done in life, then this is all pointless...

I do not believe in god but I do believe in reincarnation...so what we do in this life DOES matter

...nothing you or I will ever do will have any real affect on anything ever. Period...

...if U believe that nothing U do has an effect on anything then U believe that U R not important...and I think that is your own problem...

[Guest]

i know you guys believe your own thing, im just saying theres A LOT of proof of God. oh by the way if you wanna see a REAL christian look up the member DaddysPeachTree

he rocks

Why don't you invite him over? And (ignoring that you meant evidence, not proof) could you refer us to any of this proof?

[Guest]

ADParker, I love how you have all the common fallacies memorized. Awesome post (as usual).

They come naturally after a while, especially when they are so (oh so) often repeated.

The RichardDawkins.net Forum has a lot of religious apologists, including many creationists. So over there one really gets to practice the old logical fallacy detecting skills. It's come to the point that I never look for them anymore, they just present themselves naturally. (Studying philosophy including formal logic in Uni probably didn't hurt either. )

[Guest]

i know you guys believe your own thing,

Personally I prefer to Think rather than Believe, myself. True there is a great deal of overlap in the two terms, but important differences as well.

im just saying theres A LOT of proof of God.

So I have been told (from my earliest childhood memories actually) by many many people.

It really makes you wonder why in all that time, and all my (and others') askance, NONE of this claimed proof has been forthcoming.

And reallY? "Proof" you say, not mere evidence, but actual proof. Oh goody. Care to lay some on us then? Oh pretty please?

Okay that was a tad ("tad" he says ) condescending, no? But in all seriousness and honesty: What proof? Would you be willing to present some to us, or at least point us poor sinners in the right direction?

oh by the way if you wanna see a REAL christian look up the member DaddysPeachTree

he rocks

"REAL Christian" sounds like too much of a No True Scotman Fallacy to me (sorry couldn't resist )

But the guy has said hardly a thing here, only 21 short posts, all in "New Puzzles" and all within a period of about 10 days. And has said next to nothing about his beliefs. How do you know anything about him really?

[Guest]

I'm sorry you guys, I really am. I feel like I'm wasting everyone's time (especially mine) and now I'll do it some more...

It's really easy to criticize line-by-line what I say if I can't say it right. I mean, if we were having this conversation face to face, it would be easy for me to convey my point. But me typing a little bit, then a couple of hours you type a little bit, then me again a day later, something gets lost in the translation, you know?

Hi Marinja

I prefer to go through posts "line by line" as you say, because that way (unlike in verbal conversation) I miss nothing. I do read the whole post first, and then consider the whole when responding. So I feel that I argue/discuss things more fully than otherwise.

In fact; on what I consider my "home forum" people often get rather frustrated when people (theists for the most part for some reason) do not directly respond to specific points in posts due to not quoting it at all, or not going through it piece by piece. Less seems to be said that way, and a lot of significant points are missed. Not to mention far too many vague references, which I will address further below.

Also I do it as a sign of respect in many ways: I am willing to put the time and effort (extensive at times - a few of my posts of this sort have taken over 3 hours to compile and have been as long as about a quarter of a PhD thesis!) in order to do you the courtesy of carefully examining and assessing every little thing you say.

If you knew me at all, you'd know that I do not believe anything easily. (unfortunatly you don't; a con for debating over an internet forum).

This is true. For instance I am a terribly shy kind of guy, but can get quite verbose and open online (to the point of talking about my own personal dealings with mental illness and the like!)

I often wonder what some of the people I regularly converse with are really like "out there."

You assumed from what I wrote that I follow the bible blindly because faith, not reason, is all I need.

You may have assumed that that was what I was assuming. But it really wasn't. In fact I made every effort (and succeeded) to make no assumptions and no remarks about your person. I simply (but forthrightly; I don't pussyfoot around, that benefits no one, not really) assessed the arguments as you made them, that's all.

Maybe that's my fault, maybe that's how it sounded. But that's not what I meant at all. When anything sounds the least bit fishy at church, I'm more than willing to interrupt and nag and nag until it makes sense. I've made pastors explain to me the point of prayer. I don't follow anything blindly: church, school, parents, friends, tv, anything. That's why this is so frustrating: you are all much more skilled and experienced at putting your thoughts into words than I.

That's a good thing. Scepticism is what a hel of a lot of people need a hel of a lot more of, coupled with some basic critical thinking skills (which should be standard from the earliest opportunity in schooling in my opinion!) would do us all a world of good.

*Totally off topic and random: The "O" on my keyboard sticks, so when I write "good" it keeps coming out as "god" - is it trying to tell me something?!

By the way, Mr. or Mrs. ADParker,

"Mr." But I don't mind, whatever. As a matter of fact I would prefer there to be a good gender neutral label for such times as this. Wouldn't that help to break down a few gender bias barriers?

So just plain old "ADParker" would be my personal preference.

it's really easy to refute someone's statement's line by line, because they are easily taken out of context.

I am a serious reason, logic, science and philosophy buff. So if I mistakenly took anything out of context then please correct me on it directly.

Actually: see this is why I try to respond directly to each point, so it is clear as to precisely what I am referring to. Unlike vague generalities like you just gave: You imply out of context errors (basically quote mining) but offer not one such example? Do you see how that can easily be taken as a backhanded slur? Because it offers me no opportunity to address it properly; to correct your mis-comprehension, or recognise my own mistake. Which I assure you I would be quite happy to do, if warranted.

There's a reason why I posted the whole thing and not just the single pieces you attacked one by one. That's why many of you Athiests get passages of the Bible wrong; you take little pieces and verses that are part of a larger message, which you fail to grasp (here I'm talking specifically to you, Izzy).

Many of us who are not theists (for various reasons beyond this forum I have gotten a little tired of the term "atheist" of late, all it means is that one is not a theist anyway) used to be theists, even Christians. So be careful not to (not that you have yet) presume that we are ignorant of the bible just because we don't happen to believe it's stories to be anything other than fiction. I just say that because too many religious apologists make that mistake.

And Parker, you and Jesus have something in common: you both love to talk with metaphors and parables.

Thanks, in many ways I like Jesus (Yeshua of Nazareth) as a character (and in some I don't) and I think that at the time he was probably significantly ahead his time in his philosophies.

And with good reason! They're easiy to come up with but hard to prove wrong.

Actually it was driven by two factor mainly in this instance:

1. (As I said) Your comments put me on something of a roll there.

2. The analogy method; basically replacing 'variables' in an argument, with either other variables or even placeholders; like if X then Y, is a standard method of Philosophy, especially formal Logic. From well before the time of Jesus actually. And that is for a very good reason: It works, and is the best way to show flaws in logic and reasoning. It was a vital aspect of my Formal Logic papers as a result.

I however, do notice flaws in your anecdotes of diamonds and cheesy moons. Unfortunatly, I've recently ceased to care what your opinions are and while this post may entertain you, it is more for my benifit to vent a little. (and I might be tempted to whip out a metaphor of my own, too)

Well, that wasn't very nice.

A pity; again you offer what amounted to a slur on my reasoning ability, yet refuse to put me straight at all! It appears that thanks to you, I will be stuck with that erroneous way of thinking, because I can't see it, and you would rather point and laugh than correct my errors.

And by the way: "recently"? We have only just met (haven't we?)

(I wonder? Did she perhaps just recognise the flaws they were designed to highlight, and then mistakenly attributed them to my making a mistake, instead of realising that they were showing up the same flaws in the things she had written?! I guess we will never know now. Because apparently she has no interest in improving human understanding and reasoning. )

Unfortunately this forum doesn't like people going through line by line too much either. Once again it's excessively restrictive quote tag limit forces me to cut this post into three parts...

[Guest]

Part 2:

After this I'm probably going to stop posting for this or any topic of such controversy. It's all such a waste of time. Here's basically what I've already expressed to Izzy:

Any religous debate on this or any website is a waste of time. Anyone going into a topic like this is going to carry some bias with them. No one contributing their opinion has any intention of being swayed by someone else's.

When I come across something in the Bible, I question it until it makes sense. When an Atheist comes across something in the Bible, they question it until it doesn't make sense. A theist looks for truth and an Athiest looks for lies, so naturally both find what they want.

Aethiests generaly have false views of theists (and vise versa). But I suppose that this cannot be helped, as we will naturally develop false views one another. I'm sure there are many people who call themselves "Athiests" who you believe give Athiesim a bad name, just as I know many people who call themselves "Christians" who give Christianinty a bad name...

Okay; that was rather a lot of stereotyping there to be honest.

My "home" forum has a huge religious component, whith atheists and theists of all stripes and degrees. And many a productive discussion has ensued.

There are indeed many biases often taken into such discussions. And it is true that a lot are far too fixed. BUT I have seen many such biases shattered and relinquished in my time there. And even a few de-conversions, followed my a number of interesting slow "rebuilds" of new 'worldviews.' So very real progress can be made in such discussions.

But for me; the point is never about theism and atheism (one reason the "atheist" label has become rather bothersome for me lately) I am, if one must have a label; by nature a "Reasonist". I love and value Reason. And feel the compunction to address it when I see it being abused or mishandled. That it sometimes comes from theistic sources is largely irrelevant.

I say "largely" not "completely" because there are a number of aspects of most religions that seem to me to be pointedly abusing to reason itself. But even then it is the anti-reason angle, not the "what they happen to believe" one that is my focus.

Note for example how I was pointing out the logical fallacies; the errors in Reason in your post, not merely poking fun at your beliefs. I have even gone so far on a number of occasions to point out that my personal opinion on, say your religious beliefs for instance, is that:

There might in fact be a god, it might even be your god (God) precisely as you believe him to be, BUT I see no Reason to believe that it does in fact exist, that's all.

Okay; what else did you say there?

The Bible: You make the erroneous assumption that atheists (all of us who are not theists?! That IS how your worded it) look for lies in that book, and interestingly that theists seek truth.

A bit of (unintentional I expect) lopsidedness there I think.

First, to get it out of the way: It is not of course "theists" that look for truths in the bible, but only that subset of them that are Christian.

But what you seem to be implying is that atheists just try to disprove it, that they believe it false from the start and try to confirm that.

If being consistent; then you imply that "theists" do the same; use confirmation bias to see the bible as true, no matter what.

Now Confirmation Bias is a very real human tendency, and an all too easy one to slip into. And people do it, no matter what beliefs it is they have. But one thing I have found is that some theistic apologists make the mistake of arguing that confirmation bias, as long as to confirm their particular beliefs, is a good thing, noble, and the sign of a "true Christian" even. How many times have I been asked if I have really tried to find God, to believe in God with all my Heart? (Note; not Mind but Heart.) And even that I should first make every effort to really believe, and only then the evidence and reason I seek will be provided. That is blatant Confirmation bias talk.

You should also remember that many of us were brought up as believers, and thus once believed as you do, and wanted (sometimes desperately) to keep that belief but our reason would not allow it. I even know one who, before becoming an atheist, was a Baptist Minister. Cool guy; he's a paleontologist now.

On the rare occasion that I do address biblical passages (usually only when offered by a theist) I try to critically assess it's truth, and rational, value. True or false, valid or invalid. And make every effort to leave any biases I might have at the door.

So: Some might try to find the truth in it (to the detriment of failing to see any errors)

Another might try to find the flaws (to the detriment of failing to see what good is to be found)

But those truly dedicated to reason and the truth, no matter what it might be, endeavour (to the best of their ability) to uncover it's truth-value. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Atheism a bad name"? You know, not really. Just that people make the mistake of attributing their wrong-doing to them being an atheist. Which is almost always fallacious; as "atheism" merely describes what we are not, a set of beliefs that we do not happen to hold. It is not a belief system in an of itself. And personally I think those Christians you allude to give no-one but themselves a bad name. But there are of cause "Institutions" that can and do include certain dogmatic beliefs etc. which result in specific groups all holding the same problematic beliefs, so on those occasions there is fair reason to direct argument and the like to those establishments, or more rightly those that promote and run them. But again that is more specific than "atheism, theism or even Christianity."

We're all overly-biased hypocrites, many of the things you accuse of Theists I can show you Atheists acting similar (they employ the "straw man technique" just as often as you say we do).

Yes some individuals do, and I have pulled them up on it when I have seen it. Theist or Atheist, no matter what they happen to believe. I didn't happen to see it nearly as often in atheists as theists on the forum I usually stick to, but that is due to the rather singular nature of that community - The atheists are by in large, also very much dedicated to a very real appreciation of science, and for rational clear thinking. They do not, I fully recognise, represent a typical snapshot of people as a whole.

You pride yourselves in using logic, but just like everybody else, what's right only appeals to you when it follows your preconcieved notions of right.

Actually I truly value reason, logic being a specialised form of that. And I do 'pride' myself on making every effort to practice logical thinking, and improve my capabilities as a result. And I have studied it formally as well.

And formal logic is not as susceptible to personal bias as you might think; it is the mathematics of philosophy. In fact it is thought that perhaps there are only two fields in which actual Proof and absolute knowledge can be obtained, and those are Mathematics and Formal Logic!

2+2 always equals 4

And:

If A then B

B

Therfore A, is always a logically invalid argument.

No matter what anyone happens to think or believe.

I swear, watching Brainden is like watching a political debate. I mean, you constantly talk about the "Catholic Church" being big and bad and brainwashing people, but it's all part of the cycle.

Never said a thing against the Catholic Church. Well except for a few facts perhaps, such as the Pope declaring that the Earth wasn't stationary after all, in 1992. A mere 360 years after Kepler and Galileo established it as the case.

Now it's the church that's being bullied, God's being taken out of everywhere (and I'm sure you're extremely proud of that).

<Shrug> It is a part of (your?) constitution etc.

Why would I be proud? I didn't do it. I might be glad of in in a number of specific cases, but thats different. I personally don't want my kids to go to their place of learning and be told that they have to pray to the All-Father Odin every morning (esp. if told the sun won't rise or something if it doesn't.) Children are too susceptible and are too likely to accept it as they do the other things they are taught there. They aren't equipped with the metal tools to distinguish religious practice and doctrine from reasoned fact.

But there's a good chance it will swing the other way again. Just look at the Democrats and Republicans, both think they're right in their own eyes. For the last 8 years anyone who's not a Republican probably thinks they've abused their power. And anyone who's not a Democrat thinks their doing the same now. Neither party is always right. Try switching from CNN to Fox News back and forth while they cover the same big topic. It's like night and day! Neither tells you the truth (and neither wants to) they just want to recruit you.

Politics

I'm not a U.S.American. Why do people keep talking to me as if I was? (Just a weird thing I have noticed from some Yanks.)

You are right, none of the parties are perfect. In fact in this country (which has two predominant parties, plus a number of others) there is a bit of a problem at the moment due to each party becoming more and more "central" (less and less left vs right) that they have become far too much the same.

This quote from Winston Churchill comes to mind:

"Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Often rewarded as something like: "Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all of the others."

Personally I think your new guy is a vast improvement on your last, but that IS just my opinion, and time will tell.

It's the same with Theists and Athiests, it's a party struggle. Seriously. The only theist in this topic you didn't bash was IDNE, because he straddled the fence, and only criticized a fellow (former) beliver). So he's given respect for being open-minded. I'm not saying being open-minded is bad, but rewarding it while not being it yourselves is...

Who? Oh IDoNotExist.

Perhaps he was the only one not to make a rational error, I don't recall.

I never "bashed" anyone, I just critically assessed people's arguments. Not my fault that some take that personally and react to rational argument with emotional responses.

I freely admit that I don't pussyfoot around, and never compromise my rational integrity, but nor do I go out of my way to be mean or criticise.

I play hard but fair.

part 3 follows...

Edited April 3, 2009 by ADParker

[Guest]

..Part 3:

Why doesn't anyone care about this here at Brainden? Because the Aethiests are clearly in control. It's like the freakin Super Bowl! If the crowd is 85% Pittsburgh, how can Arizona hope to win? But you Aethiests don't know/care about it cause your in control and everything seems fine. I complain because, well, my side's losing, and it pleads with a very small voice. If it were flip-flopped, you can bet that I'd be completely unaware while you're all either fighting or converting under pressure (I'm sorry, CSG).

Winning and losing is a childish way to see it. Sadly too many do.

It saddens me for instance when I write a long thought out post, only to have the person I am talking to just ignore it and leave the thread, rather than address it. Because I am here for the dialogue, and that ony works when it's two ways (at least, had some interesting multiple way discussions!) Because it is only through open dialogue, with all parties enganging and "playing the game" (that is all honestly trying to engage in rational debate) that any real progress can be made.

You bemoan the atheist domination here? But do you understand why this is the case? When I first game here (being invited from that home forum of mine) there was a discussion going on where the theists were dominant really. But subsequently the theists voices were muted due to them essentially opting out of the discussions, often through playing the hurt feelings card. There are a few theists that have come on this thread for instance, but how much have they contributed other than their initial declarations? Notice how it seems to go:

"These are my religious beliefs, this is why they should be followed/believed/accepted"

One or two people try to engage them in serious discussion by critiquing their post.

They respond with what often amounts to little more than "you're mean!"

Far too many times do I see theistic apologists making assertions with great gusto, but failing to follow through. Often it seems that this is because they really want to preach, not argue. They want to say what they say and have it accepted, not discussed, certainly not in any negative manner. But what is the point of a discussion if everyone is on the same side?! Sometimes I think that (for some at least) that they are too used to this "from the pulpit"as it were, that they think that it is the only way to 'discuss.' And/or it is he only way they know how to.

You for example: You made that post. I took the effort to make a lengthy detailed reply, in the attempt at starting a potentially fruitful dialogue. One where you hopefully try to further explain your various arguments and claims based on my responses to them. Hopefully with us both coming out of it a little wiser (Something I have been a part of on many an occasion, and am the better for it I feel.) But it is you, the theist, who simply refuse to engage. And why? It seems that hurt feelings play a large part.

It's all too common, and very frustrating to a lover of reason and rational debate. Why won't anyone play with me?! Do I play too rough? Well I'm afraid I can't put on the kiddie gloves, because that compromise will only result in a trivial mockery of the kind of 'game' I wish to play. I have grown out of the junior league arguments, I need the full on thing. (That's why I call that other forum home, I am playing with people who include professional scientists, logicians, and the odd theologian as well; the big boys! - Being largely anonymous; that has resulted in some amusing occurrences though. I remember one particular Creationist accused a member of not knowing anything about paleontology or the bible! You guessed it; it was that Professional PhD holding Paleontologist ex-Baptist Minister that I mentioned above, that he was accusing! )

If you want there to be a fair balance between theists and atheists debating a topic (such as this one) then you should put in the effort to engage in the debate then. It is really that simple. For my part I often lament the fact that (esp on that other forum) most theists don't stick around, and most that do are just too stubborn and closed minded that they don't really engage, but just spout off their rhetoric and mostly ignore any responses. There is that rare few however. But too many run away at the first sign of a fair fight, and then accuse US of not playing fair and picking on them! I recall a few for example that made a new thread to post something (of something basically along the lines of your earlier post) and when a whole bunch of us each independently saw fit to respond to it, a few of us in great depth, their first (and a couple of times; only) response was to complain that we were picking on them, by giving so many responses! Personally I would have been flattered that so many thought it worthy of response! On the other hand a few have gloated/complained that when they get few responses, that we are all to scared to face them.

But that's human nature. We're all equally stupid, selfish hypocritical you are. And if you don't belive that, than it just proves how stupid, selfish and hypocritical you are... (I bet you all can have a field day with that statement)

Sure why not:

Calling people stupid etc. counts as a personal attack. (You would get a formal warning for that on the other forum.) Please try to attack the argument, not the person.

But if you want to point out that I said something that was stupid, selfish or hypocritical. Then by all means please do so. BUT make sure that you expressly show exactly what I did. Vague slurs like this are not appreciated, and as they are say far more about the speaker than those they mean to insult.

It's unfathomable how much more I have to say, but I've completely lost all interest in a topic that goes no where. Maybe if we were actually talking I might be willing to talk your faces off, but not like this. No one with any major belifefs (whether in a God or not) is going to come out of this with a life changing epiphany.

Not likely no. You see your "opposing" position is not another belief system, but rather; reasoned sceptical secularism. That is not a thing of "revelation" so much as of slow intellectual and emotional growth. It's not a quick fix, easy answer, kind of deal. It's not easy, but it is rewarding, continually rewarding once certain hurdles are overcome actually!) As a result what does tend to happen from discussions such as these is that those that enter into it with some degree of true open-mindedness, an openness to change, go away from it with some interesting 'seeds' of doubt and inquiry, that just might sprout and bear fruit if given the chance. I have seen a few significant changes in my time however. Creationists becoming atheists being the most notable, but just as rewarding is those who come in making bold claims, realising that they didn't know nearly as much as they thought they did, and bringing themselves to start asking honest questions (rather than the sneering pseudo-questions which were really challenges and assertions that we can't answer them) and trying to improve their own understanding. Far too few I must say, but a few at least.

And as is often repeated: We are not really doing it on many occasions, for those we debate, as their minds are usually too set in stone, but for those who are listening in. A fair number of them have chimed in with comments that even if our opponent didn't listen or get anything out of it, they certainly did ("I never knew that was a logical fallacy! Do you know how long I believed that was a good argument?!"..."MY pastor has been using that argument for years! OMG!!!")

One last thing though- can we all stop being so crazy condescending?

Again; you are wasting everyones time if you can't be bothered to reference one single example, vague generalisations are worthless.

Try doing what I do (and did with your post before;) Explain that THIS POINT here was of this nature here (logical fallacy X, an insult, condescending etc.) Don't just complain that there has been some condescension, some flaws... in the arguments somewhere or other.

To use another analogy; it's like waiting for your professor/teacher to cover the whole board in calculations and equations, and complaining vaguely that he made a mistake in there "somewhere."

First off, I hate it when fellow Christians aren't making any headway in an arguement, they say something like "I'll pray for you." I really do hate that. It's like what? the conversation's over now because you can't say anything important to anyone but God now?

But on the flip side, Athiest's have this habit (present company not excluded) of assuming that Theists believe in God because their not as smart. Like the only thing separating believers from non-believers are IQ points? Really? You and I have just as many smart (and stupid) people in our ranks.

And that occurred where in this thread?!

I don't recall one (even disguised and backhanded) implication about theistic intellect.

Can't we agree that althoug we disagree, we're equal?

Sure, not that I have ever done otherwise.

Wow! I wrote a lot. Again... Sorry...

You should see some of my mammoth posts! Oy vey!

In closing:

is this a ninja? 'cause that's freakin' awesome!

Certainly looks like it to me, although its code is "ph34r" which is (I looked it up) l33t-sp33k for "fear."

[andromeda]

Seriously?! It's true because you want it to be true, or you don't LIKE the idea that it isn't true?!

Hey ADParker!

I do agree with you, but I think I have a solution to this one - it's true because it's the only truth that they can live with, regardless whether it's really true or not. How about that?

[Guest]

Hey ADParker!

I do agree with you, but I think I have a solution to this one - it's true because it's the only truth that they can live with, regardless whether it's really true or not. How about that?

But why is that the only truth they can live with?

I'd contend it's part of the cognitive infrastructure their parents endowed them with at a young age. Their understanding of the world has built on these basic foundations ever since. So, even when they realise their church has lied to them, they're still looking for a meaning in the same context. The understanding of the world they've built, makes no sense except within the framework of sentient causation. It takes effort and bravery to throw out those tried and trusted lies to really think about things.

Take the typical anti-atheist complaint "without a god there's no meaning to life".

It's a non-statement, but it gets used all the time. To even see that the meaning to life is held within each of us, and is something each person decides/stumbles on requires the thinker to look at their own goals and desires. So the sheeples won't. Meaning has to come from an external source or they'd have to look into their own mind, and they won't do that.

/rant