Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Dawh, you are lying. "GC said he was the Space Agent and said he might as well since the M4F14 already know his identity" The mafia know the ID of Robie the Robot, not the Agent. Why make such an obvious lying statement? Its so easy to disprove. But the AcroBot (a M4F1050) tried to rob the house of the Space Agent and failed. Because they chose a person to steal from (ie. GC,) they knew that GC was the Space Agent. That's what GC was saying earlier; since they already knew his identity, he though it safest to let everyone else know as well so that he could be protected if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 (edited) That could be true (if I didn't know better,) but like GC said, the M4F14 also know his role, so your claiming to know it doesn't help you. At this point the best strategy for the M4F14 is to cause as much mayhem as possible and keep the innocents confused. I hope that the innocents see through it. Oh of coarse you do. You ( baddie) hope that we (innocents) see through it(your lies). And luckily we do! Or I do. edit: Oh crud! I just outted a baddie! Um Uh could a saving role please get my back? I may have someone after me tonight! I'm too young to die. Edited August 28, 2008 by crazypainter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I know because I am the Uber-Hacker. If this is the case (in which I know it is not), then you should tell us everything you know. There is no point holding it a secret (except for seven), This is day two, so you should have two bits on information? Why did you bother to check me anyway? What a waste? There were other people who were accused og been bad, would have been a lot more of a sensible choice. Why waste a check on me.. Why Indeed; prehaps because you are just trying to find a reason to jestify you secondary objective as a QA? I think people are on to you. The REAL uber-hacker knows you are not truthful, it is only time until everyone else finds out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoruichi-san Posted August 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 But the AcroBot (a M4F1050) tried to rob the house of the Space Agent and failed. Because they chose a person to steal from (ie. GC,) they knew that GC was the Space Agent. That's what GC was saying earlier; since they already knew his identity, he though it safest to let everyone else know as well so that he could be protected if need be. If the AcroBot tries to steal from the SA, the steal fails but counts as a use. Hence the M4F14 would know the identity of the SA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 That could be true (if I didn't know better,) but like GC said, the M4F14 also know his role, so your claiming to know it doesn't help you. At this point the best strategy for the M4F14 is to cause as much mayhem as possible and keep the innocents confused. I hope that the innocents see through it. Actually, the M4F14 have done a good job on laying low, so why would they mess that up now with coming out and creating drama? Nobody has mentioned anything about being suspicious on who is M4F14 (except when Brandonb suspected Phaze was one, since it said "baddie"). Other than that, there have been no supported suspicions. I also know another character's role, and hopefully that person will be one of those that backs me up, since I tried to tell them I know their role earlier, but I don't want to out them unnecessarily and make them a target. You just got caught, that's why you are suddenly pointing the finger at me. There has been no suspicion on me, even with Brandonb voting for me, but I think that's because I was starting a vote for him (again). He hasn't put out any other reason, and it just seems like a revenge vote. I would have no other reason to come out with my role if it weren't for you claiming to be the uber-hacker. Think of it! What advantage would I have by drawing the light onto myself? If I'm M4F14, that would be a bad move bringing myself to attention. If I'm a QA, again, bad move since 2 have already been found, and with onetruth dead, I would have unlimited access to killing every night. It would be better for me to keep quiet, and try to get my target killed, like Brandonb suggested you're trying to do to taliesin which doesn't really prove my point since you came out with it. You were doing good at putting some suspicion on Taliesin until you came out with a fake role. And if I were Zero, that would be not smart, and I would become a likely target for 7. I don't think you're a QA, because then you could just kill taliesin at night after onetruth is dead. Maybe you're M4F14, but I doubt that. I think you may be Zero, and think that taliesin is 7 and his claim for 7 to come out was a way to disguise his role to make himself less of a target for Zero, and that's why you're focusing on that particular post as reason that you're trying to say he's Zero... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 If the AcroBot tries to steal from the SA, the steal fails but counts as a use. Hence the M4F14 would know the identity of the SA. ohh cruuuud..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Host AIs: Y-S4N and L1S Roster: 1) Frozen - voting for onetruth 2) Mekal 3) ThunderChicken - DEAD [?] (killed by...Everyone???) 4) onetruth - cannot vote 5) twoaday 6) Kat - voting for onetruth 7) Crazypainter voting for Brandonb 8) GC - voting for onetruth 9) Nayana- voting for Frozen 10) Slickster - DEAD [bioEngineer] (killed by M4F14) 11) Dusty - voting for dawh 12) Dawh 13) Sinistral - DEAD [?] (killed by Zero) 14) taliesin - voting for dawh 15) woon - voting for Kat 16) Ben Law - voting for Brandonb 17) Phaze - DEAD [?] (killed by Mimic) 18) SoKrisky 19) Brandonb - voting for Dusty 20) Joe's Student - voting for onetruth I think you are onto something here Dusty, I also vote for Dwah. Also Dusty, have you discovered any Mafia in you travels as the uber-haxor? We know the QA's and if the Mutant is in fact dead, they will all die by the day's end. We have no solid idea's going around about mafia? What do you think? Also just pointing out that brendonb attacks again tonight, hopefully he keeps his word, if not i suggest we vote him the Day after next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I have some suggestions, totally just ideas and people don't have to follow. If we let onetruth survive the day, the Mad Scientist could target onetruth and onetruth will vaporize the next day. Or if the mad scientist has another person in mind for the QA... The other QA's identity is still unknown, and although it's a possibility they will choose the same target and kill them, it's not for sure. Also, Brandonb as the mimic needs to kill a baddie in order to fulfill his goal in order to win, and in self preservation, he'll probably kill onetruth if we let her survive the day. Although, his target is probably Zero since that win scenario would be easier to fulfill. Y-54N, does Brandonb find the other QAs identity since they met up, and that's part of the QA ability? If so, I might have to rethink this all. Since I KNOW that dawh is lying, I wonder why. It must be because he's bad, and therefore must die. I don't know exactly what his role is, but if he's Zero, which I'm leaning towards, then it would definitely be a good thing to get him out of the way. If he's M4F14, then it would be a good thing to take one of them down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I think you are onto something here Dusty, I also vote for Dwah. Also Dusty, have you discovered any Mafia in you travels as the uber-haxor? We know the QA's and if the Mutant is in fact dead, they will all die by the day's end. We have no solid idea's going around about mafia? What do you think? Also just pointing out that brendonb attacks again tonight, hopefully he keeps his word, if not i suggest we vote him the Day after next I have only found out the Space Agent (GC) and the Mad Scientist (not telling if I don't have to). Sorry, I've been looking for baddies through people that have kept more quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 If this is the case (in which I know it is not), then you should tell us everything you know. There is no point holding it a secret (except for seven), This is day two, so you should have two bits on information? Why did you bother to check me anyway? What a waste? There were other people who were accused og been bad, would have been a lot more of a sensible choice. Why waste a check on me.. Why Indeed; prehaps because you are just trying to find a reason to jestify you secondary objective as a QA? I think people are on to you. The REAL uber-hacker knows you are not truthful, it is only time until everyone else finds out. Well I couldn't exactly contribute to the discussion on the first day (the CD saw to that, <_< ) and people were voting for me for no obvious reason that I could see, so I thought I'd investigate that avenue further. Usually the most dangerous people are the ones who say the least because no one knows who they are, and of those people, I picked the one who seemed the most suspect. As to the other identity I know, let's just say it's my lucky charm... Everyone seems to be confused about my identity even though I've made it perfectly clear who I am. You say I'm one thing and Dusty is saying I could be one of a couple of others. I know I can't get you on my side (for obvious reasons,) but I'm hoping that the rest of the Innocents will see the truth of the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 but I'm hoping that the rest of the Innocents will see the truth of the matter. me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Actually, the M4F14 have done a good job on laying low, so why would they mess that up now with coming out and creating drama? Nobody has mentioned anything about being suspicious on who is M4F14 (except when Brandonb suspected Phaze was one, since it said "baddie"). Other than that, there have been no supported suspicions. I also know another character's role, and hopefully that person will be one of those that backs me up, since I tried to tell them I know their role earlier, but I don't want to out them unnecessarily and make them a target. You just got caught, that's why you are suddenly pointing the finger at me. There has been no suspicion on me, even with Brandonb voting for me, but I think that's because I was starting a vote for him (again). He hasn't put out any other reason, and it just seems like a revenge vote. I would have no other reason to come out with my role if it weren't for you claiming to be the uber-hacker. Think of it! What advantage would I have by drawing the light onto myself? If I'm M4F14, that would be a bad move bringing myself to attention. If I'm a QA, again, bad move since 2 have already been found, and with onetruth dead, I would have unlimited access to killing every night. It would be better for me to keep quiet, and try to get my target killed, like Brandonb suggested you're trying to do to taliesin which doesn't really prove my point since you came out with it. You were doing good at putting some suspicion on Taliesin until you came out with a fake role. And if I were Zero, that would be not smart, and I would become a likely target for 7. I don't think you're a QA, because then you could just kill taliesin at night after onetruth is dead. Maybe you're M4F14, but I doubt that. I think you may be Zero, and think that taliesin is 7 and his claim for 7 to come out was a way to disguise his role to make himself less of a target for Zero, and that's why you're focusing on that particular post as reason that you're trying to say he's Zero... I gave my reasons for why the M4F14 might want to come out (as innocents.) They want the other baddies to survive as long as possible so that they can continue to hide amongst the innocents while the other baddies take the rap. If too many baddies die at once, then the innocents can turn their entire focus onto rooting out M4F14. I can't be sure why you are lying about your role, but I was pointing out one possible theory. I think it is valid because the chances are against my being lynched since there are other more obvious targets available. So you wait for someone (me) to make an unsubstantiated claim (ie. "I am the Uber-Hacker,") then say that I am lying with the expectation that someone else will get airlocked. After all, the innocents will want to avoid killing one of their own if at all possible. Then you hope that there is enough confusion among the innocents so that you can kill me tonight and then no one will be able to prove it one way or the other. It's really an ingenious strategy as I see it, and it's certainly a tactic I might employ if I saw a good opportunity as a M4F1050 (which, of course, I'm not. ) If people really want to test this, go ahead and lynch me. I just hope that the innocents know better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandonb Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Dusty... Remember what I said? That if I vote for anyone, no one else will join me? You should be thanking me for voting against you and not changing my vote yet Seriously though, I've been confused about what is going on. Dawh and Dusty are both claiming the UberHacker role. Well, I was in the process of discerning between the two, to figure out who is what. So I went back to the most recent roster. The fact is... the first thing someone would do, if there was a conflict in roles, is to vote for the person claiming to be their role! ...Dawh still hasn't voted.... He's been on alot. He's been active in the discussion. He's been making his accusations... but why not vote? It may not be solid proof against Dawh, and I normally wouldn't want to vote against the possible "zero" but I'm pretty sure that he is a M4F14, so having him alive isn't really going to help me. Host AIs: Y-S4N and L1S Roster: 1) Frozen - voting for onetruth 2) Mekal 3) ThunderChicken - DEAD [?] (killed by...Everyone???) 4) onetruth - cannot vote 5) twoaday 6) Kat - voting for onetruth 7) Crazypainter voting for Brandonb 8) GC - voting for onetruth 9) Nayana- voting for Frozen 10) Slickster - DEAD [bioEngineer] (killed by M4F14) 11) Dusty - voting for dawh 12) Dawh 13) Sinistral - DEAD [?] (killed by Zero) 14) taliesin - voting for dawh 15) woon - voting for Kat 16) Ben Law - voting for Brandonb 17) Phaze - DEAD [?] (killed by Mimic) 18) SoKrisky 19) Brandonb - voting for Dusty 20) Joe's Student - voting for onetruth Like I said... It's not solid evidence or anything. And all in all I guess I'm better off not voting against other baddies. Plus, my vote is like the daytime version of the medbot. You're welcome Dusty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Dusty... Remember what I said? That if I vote for anyone, no one else will join me? You should be thanking me for voting against you and not changing my vote yet You're welcome Dusty Thank you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Seriously though, I've been confused about what is going on. Dawh and Dusty are both claiming the UberHacker role. Well, I was in the process of discerning between the two, to figure out who is what. So I went back to the most recent roster. The fact is... the first thing someone would do, if there was a conflict in roles, is to vote for the person claiming to be their role! ...Dawh still hasn't voted.... He's been on alot. He's been active in the discussion. He's been making his accusations... but why not vote? It may not be solid proof against Dawh, and I normally wouldn't want to vote against the possible "zero" but I'm pretty sure that he is a M4F14, so having him alive isn't really going to help me. Like I said... It's not solid evidence or anything. And all in all I guess I'm better off not voting against other baddies. Plus, my vote is like the daytime version of the medbot. You're welcome Dusty I can garentee that Dawh is not who he says he is.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Well I couldn't exactly contribute to the discussion on the first day (the CD saw to that, <_< ) and people were voting for me for no obvious reason that I could see, so I thought I'd investigate that avenue further. Usually the most dangerous people are the ones who say the least because no one knows who they are, and of those people, I picked the one who seemed the most suspect. As to the other identity I know, let's just say it's my lucky charm... Everyone seems to be confused about my identity even though I've made it perfectly clear who I am. You say I'm one thing and Dusty is saying I could be one of a couple of others. I know I can't get you on my side (for obvious reasons,) but I'm hoping that the rest of the Innocents will see the truth of the matter. I know your lucky charm doesn't exist, you say you checked up on me. What exacly did you get in the reply. I know you got nothing from the AI's. Anyways, I not going to be on until I finish work. My boss sits behind me an see's me on here all the time. Its not a good look. I encorage you all to think about your vote, now that 2 people a claiming to be the h4x0r. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 I can garentee that Dawh is not who he says he is.. Did you spy on me j/k I'll be off for a while, not suspicious or anything, but I'm getting off work, and heading out for several hours. The day has another 9 hours, or something like that, right? I should be back before the voting ends, but unless someone proves more suspicious to me than Dawh, I'm keeping my vote there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandonb Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Did you spy on me j/k I'll be off for a while, not suspicious or anything, but I'm getting off work, and heading out for several hours. The day has another 9 hours, or something like that, right? I should be back before the voting ends, but unless someone proves more suspicious to me than Dawh, I'm keeping my vote there. How on earth could anyone be more suspicious than someone claiming the same role as you? Unless...... they were a confirmed baddie lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 @BrendonB: Do people keep voting for you because you are into law and because previous games? That is the picture I get anyways! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandonb Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 @BrandonB: Do people keep voting for you because you are into law and because previous games? That is the picture I get anyways! I'm sure I take most of the voting flak because of my methods in the previous games. Even though previous games are not supposed to come into play... I guess I have just developed a reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Dusty... Remember what I said? That if I vote for anyone, no one else will join me? You should be thanking me for voting against you and not changing my vote yet Seriously though, I've been confused about what is going on. Dawh and Dusty are both claiming the UberHacker role. Well, I was in the process of discerning between the two, to figure out who is what. So I went back to the most recent roster. The fact is... the first thing someone would do, if there was a conflict in roles, is to vote for the person claiming to be their role! ...Dawh still hasn't voted.... He's been on alot. He's been active in the discussion. He's been making his accusations... but why not vote? It may not be solid proof against Dawh, and I normally wouldn't want to vote against the possible "zero" but I'm pretty sure that he is a M4F14, so having him alive isn't really going to help me. Host AIs: Y-S4N and L1S Roster: 1) Frozen - voting for onetruth 2) Mekal 3) ThunderChicken - DEAD [?] (killed by...Everyone???) 4) onetruth - cannot vote 5) twoaday 6) Kat - voting for onetruth 7) Crazypainter voting for Brandonb 8) GC - voting for onetruth 9) Nayana- voting for Frozen 10) Slickster - DEAD [bioEngineer] (killed by M4F14) 11) Dusty - voting for dawh 12) Dawh 13) Sinistral - DEAD [?] (killed by Zero) 14) taliesin - voting for dawh 15) woon - voting for Kat 16) Ben Law - voting for Brandonb 17) Phaze - DEAD [?] (killed by Mimic) 18) SoKrisky 19) Brandonb - voting for Dusty 20) Joe's Student - voting for onetruth Like I said... It's not solid evidence or anything. And all in all I guess I'm better off not voting against other baddies. Plus, my vote is like the daytime version of the medbot. You're welcome Dusty I removed my vote earlier because I thought it was generating the wrong impression. I have to say I'm confused about your statement Brandonb. Why should I reflex vote against Dusty just because she's claiming I'm lying and voting for me? That would be more in the vein of revenge voting and besides, there are more obvious choices for people to choose than me or Dusty and one of them will likely take the cake today. If I tried to start a lynch vote against Dusty because she is claiming my role, it could clear up the controversy, but the other innocents have to pick wisely. They could vote with me (or with her for that matter,) but if they choose the wrong one of us to lynch, we lose an innocent and the other person (a baddie) will live to kill another day. So of course the obvious choice would be to make no decision and choose either onetruth or you (Bb, ) but I am claiming that that is what is expected to happen and what the M4F14 are counting on. Then at least one of us (you all know which one I mean) will die tonight and the mystery will remain for the next day and people won't know who to trust. That's one reason I'm still for airlocking Taliesin. Lynching him will prove my innocence and it will further the innocent's goals by removing a dangerous baddie and increasing the pressure on the remaining baddies. Of course, I've had my say and Dusty's had her say and it's really up to those still on the fence to decide which person should be airlocked and who is lying. I will gladly lynch any of the confirmed baddies, it's just that Taliesin is my preference (even though he technically isn't confirmed to anyone except me.) If Dusty and I go head to head, it doesn't really help the Innocent's goals because for the most part it's all hearsay right now. And Taliesin, I was saying that my lucky charm (ie. other investigation) was my (and the innocent's) lucky number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandonb Posted August 28, 2008 Report Share Posted August 28, 2008 Oh yeah! I forgot, you were the one accusing Taliesin, sorry. You're the baddie... the other QA, I completely forgot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe's Student Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 (edited) Ok again alot happens while im away lol. Sooo first of all we're pretty much accepting the onetruth is a QA theory. Secondly there has been the development between Dawh, Dusty and Taliesin... Although i was suspicious of taliesin earlier on i'm inclined to believe Dusty and be uber-suspicious of Dawh. Dusty (if he was Mafia) would have no reason to come out as the uber-hacker if he wasn't would cast far too much suspicion on himself. Unnecessarily. So i believe Dusty is telling the truth and that Dawh is the final QA trying to accomplish his secondary objective. We're guessing his objective is taliesin (obviously lol) which would confirm taliesin as an innocent. Also notice how Dawh tries to cast suspicion over TC being the Mutant with whats emboldened: However, as I see it, the most imminent threat to the Innocent's victory is Zero since he only needs to kill Seven to win (and we can be sure that Zero has been hunting diligently for Seven (and even more sure that Brandonb has been searching desperately for both of them. )) Assuming that ThunderChicken was the Mutant (I see that there is some doubt about this, ) that means that regardless of whether or not onetruth is airlocked, she will die at the end of the day. So we can airlock onetruth and leave Zero with the chance to kill Seven, or Brandonb with the chance to kill both of them, or we can nip that problem in the bud and kill the QAs and Zero and eliminate another win condition for Brandonb if we can airlock Zero today. If people believe the mutant isn't dead then there's no question of the secondary objective and people wouldn't be as suspicious as to why Dawh was pressing the vote on taliesin. Scenarios: 1. Airlock Dawh, onetruth dies b/c mission has failed (two baddies dead) 2. Airlock onetruth, Dawh dies b/c mission has failed (two baddies dead) 3. Airlock Brandonb, one baddie dead. I say option number 1 b/c: definite baddie being killed (onetruth) with high possibility of Dawh dying also. Whereas if we airlock Dawh, we can't be as sure he's a baddie and we could be killing just the one (with the remote chance of hiim being an innocent). This leaves Bb who i believe should be targeted by whoever has the ability (possibly) to kill tonight (i.e Seven, Space Agent). Which would mean a successful day/night in which 3 baddies were killed. Bit long i know.. sorry lol Edited August 29, 2008 by Joe's Student Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekal Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 Host AIs: Y-S4N and L1S Roster: 1) Frozen - voting for onetruth 2) Mekal - voting for onetruth 3) ThunderChicken - DEAD [?] (killed by...Everyone???) 4) onetruth - cannot vote 5) twoaday 6) Kat - voting for onetruth 7) Crazypainter voting for Brandonb 8) GC - voting for onetruth 9) Nayana- voting for Frozen 10) Slickster - DEAD [bioEngineer] (killed by M4F14) 11) Dusty - voting for dawh 12) Dawh 13) Sinistral - DEAD [?] (killed by Zero) 14) taliesin - voting for dawh 15) woon - voting for Kat 16) Ben Law - voting for Brandonb 17) Phaze - DEAD [?] (killed by Mimic) 18) SoKrisky 19) Brandonb - voting for Dusty 20) Joe's Student - voting for onetruth just saying... i voted for onetruth WAY BACK... i twill be another hour till i get on... i have alot of homework Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 Roster: 1) Frozen - voting for onetruth 2) Mekal - voting for onetruth 3) ThunderChicken - DEAD [?] (killed by...Everyone???) 4) onetruth - cannot vote 5) twoaday 6) Kat - voting for onetruth 7) Crazypainter voting for dawh 8) GC - voting for onetruth 9) Nayana- voting for Frozen 10) Slickster - DEAD [bioEngineer] (killed by M4F14) 11) Dusty - voting for dawh 12) Dawh 13) Sinistral - DEAD [?] (killed by Zero) 14) taliesin - voting for dawh 15) woon - voting for Kat 16) Ben Law - voting for Brandonb 17) Phaze - DEAD [?] (killed by Mimic) 18) SoKrisky 19) Brandonb - voting for Dusty 20) Joe's Student - voting for onetruth Damn, either I am way to gullible or easily moved? *tapping nails on desk* I dont want Bb to get away since he seems to slip away each time. And now I am getting so anxious to see the day post! And read Ysan's story. And i wish the day would end! Grrrr So, MY suspicious list has Bb, Dawh, Onetruth, and Kat on it. I fully agree that the baddies are keeping quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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