[Brandonb]

Billy is in a race and is in last place. Billy is able to overtake everyone in the race, except for the guy in third place, what place is Billy in and why?

[Guest]

Billy is in first place. The guy in third place was in second when he was overtaken by our Billy-boy. Billy then continued his valiant effort to the top.

[Brandonb]

Billy is in first place. The guy in third place was in second when he was overtaken by our Billy-boy. Billy then continued his valiant effort to the top.

But billy had overtaken everyone, except the guy in 3rd. So he couldn't be in first.

[Guest]

Here is my guess

Billy is in a racer in F1. The 1st and second positions cars have lapped everyone other than the third place car. So now the cars are in order.

3,1,2,4,5,6.......

Now since Billy is behind 3 he is in fourth position.

[Guest]

But billy had overtaken everyone, except the guy in 3rd. So he couldn't be in first.

[Guest]

He tied with someone else on first place. The guy he last overtook was the third place(as there were two first place)

[Brandonb]

Here is my guess

Billy is in a racer in F1. The 1st and second positions cars have lapped everyone other than the third place car. So now the cars are in order.

3,1,2,4,5,6.......

Now since Billy is behind 3 he is in fourth position.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that (having laps), but it would work.

-Now, can you figure it out for a race that does not lap? (straight shot beginning to end)

[Brandonb]

He tied with someone else on first place. The guy he last overtook was the third place(as there were two first place)

No one can tie in the race

[Guest]

Maybe he is in race, where the slowest win (we used to have a slow cycling race in our school). So hence he was able to overtake everyone except the one who finished third, he is in second position. The race involves only three people. The person whom he overtook was the slowest and hence won the race.

[Brandonb]

Maybe he is in race, where the slowest win (we used to have a slow cycling race in our school). So hence he was able to overtake everyone except the one who finished third, he is in second position. The race involves only three people. The person whom he overtook was the slowest and hence won the race.

Lol, very creative. Under those circumstances then sure, that could work.

OK... think if this as a normal race, one way, real-world Olympic style.

Ex. a straight shot 400m dash.

[Guest]

Maybe there are only 3 people in the race, and since he starts in last place, he ius also in third. He then overtakes the other two guys, but doesn't overtake the third place guy cause he can't overtake himself.

[Guest]

Lol, very creative. Under those circumstances then sure, that could work.

OK... think if this as a normal race, one way, real-world Olympic style.

Ex. a straight shot 400m dash.

So, it is a running race, right ?

[EventHorizon]

Billy is in a race and is in last place. Billy is able to overtake everyone in the race, except for the guy in third place, what place is Billy in and why?

there are only three people in the race....and the person who was in third place was billy (cannot overtake himself).

[Brandonb]

Ugh, you guys are killing me.

Apparently I left a lot of holes for interpretation in my original post.

-It is not necessarily a running race, but if you choose to think of it that way then that works.

If there were 3 then that would work.

-However, in this race there are at least 5 people.

[Guest]

Ugh, you guys are killing me.

Apparently I left a lot of holes for interpretation in my original post.

-It is not necessarily a running race, but if you choose to think of it that way then that works.

If there were 3 then that would work.

-However, in this race there are at least 5 people.

Lets say third place is pacing himself, and hates the OP guys. He is currently in third place but as soon as he starts to catch up third place hits the gun. Thus they eventually overtake everyone. Leaving third place in first place, and the OP guy in second place.

Edited April 11, 2008 by PolishNorbi

[Guest]

Just because he has the ability to overtake everyone, except third. Doesn't mean he will want to. Since he is in last place and the question asks what place is he in, the answer is last.

Edited April 11, 2008 by PolishNorbi

[Brandonb]

Lets say third place is pacing himself, and hates the OP guys. He is currently in third place but as soon as he starts to catch up third place hits the gun. Thus they eventually overtake everyone. Leaving third place in first place, and the OP guy in second place.

Then he would have overtaken everyone except the guy in 1st.

[Brandonb]

Just because he has the ability to overtake everyone, except third. Doesn't mean he will want to. Since he is in last place and the question asks what place is he in, the answer is last.

I'll say that is the right answer because it is what I came up with after I reread the problem. I'll post a new clarified one.

Forgive me, I'm new to creating clear riddles.

[Guest]

1st and 2nd have already finished, so Billy is behind 3rd...hes in 4th place

[itachi-san]

Isn't this the same puzzle with the flawed logic that we all tried to figure out a day or two ago? I think Eventhorizon had it best when he said the 3rd place guy spontaneously combusted.

[Brandonb]

Isn't this the same puzzle with the flawed logic that we all tried to figure out a day or two ago? I think Eventhorizon had it best when he said the 3rd place guy spontaneously combusted.

Actually, the one from a couple days ago was titled "Race -3". This one is my earlier attempt that had several answers (I wasn't clear in my wording).

So I made another one, then another (#3 - the one that no one could answer). BTW, your flawed logic accusation has been refuted if you would like to go back and read the response. Unless you want to argue that someone who has finished a race is still in a race (I still can't understand how someone could argue that).

[itachi-san]

Actually, the one from a couple days ago was titled "Race -3". This one is my earlier attempt that had several answers (I wasn't clear in my wording).

So I made another one, then another (#3 - the one that no one could answer). BTW, your flawed logic accusation has been refuted if you would like to go back and read the response. Unless you want to argue that someone who has finished a race is still in a race (I still can't understand how someone could argue that).

I would love to argue that. The person who finished first isn't out of the race after they finish... Perhaps you're not familiar with Track lingo. Say it's 8 in the morning and the meet hasn't even started yet. You can name everyone who is the race and guess what? No one is running at the time!

Edit: Can you post a link to the race #3 one? I don't see it anywhere.

Edited April 14, 2008 by itachi-san

[Brandonb]

I would love to argue that. The person who finished first isn't out of the race after they finish... Perhaps you're not familiar with Track lingo. Say it's 8 in the morning and the meet hasn't even started yet. You can name everyone who is the race and guess what? No one is running at the time!

No, you could (with relative though not absolute certainty) name everyone who is going to be in the race. Basically you could read a roster, but you couldn't say who is in the race, only who could be.

[Brandonb]

Oops, it's #2 not #3 (there is no #3).

The Race #2

[itachi-san]

No, you could (with relative though not absolute certainty) name everyone who is going to be in the race. Basically you could read a roster, but you couldn't say who is in the race, only who could be.

From my track experience, no one ever says runners could be in an upcoming race. They say: 'person A, person B , etc... are in the 800m, person C, person D, etc... are in the 400m'

No one ever says 'OK, for the next race here are the possible runners. Or, the following people could be in the 800m, who knows for sure? Maybe a meteor will fall on us all in 10 seconds and there won't be a race.' - not a typical day at the races quote.

[Brandonb]

From my track experience, no one ever says runners could be in an upcoming race. They say: 'person A, person B , etc... are in the 800m, person C, person D, etc... are in the 400m'

No one ever says 'OK, for the next race here are the possible runners. Or, the following people could be in the 800m, who knows for sure? Maybe a meteor will fall on us all in 10 seconds and there won't be a race.' - not a typical day at the races quote.

You're right, it's not typical. Typical speech for those matters refer to someone's future presence in a present tense. The only way that could be logical is that the reference is to someone on the roster. I know, I also ran track myself (actually field events). I was always "in" the discus event and "in" the poll vault event, though they would often occur at the same time, so I would have to choose between them and never actually be in one of them. (I know I know, only one race can occur at a time, but you also see this when runners are rostered to participate in field events).

Either way, all that argument does is reinforce that 1st and 2nd could not have been participating in the race when the OP was stated. If you view the word "in" as someone on the roster, then the OP is impossible (same as if 1st and 2nd hadn't run at all, or if 1st and 2nd had dropped out mid-race). Leaving you with the only relevant definition of "in" which is "participating" or "currently and actively engaged in the race".

The logic wasn't flawed, but the context that most people assumed was that the word "in" meant on the roster, which is obviously impossible given the guidelines of the OP.