Mafia x Mafia

[bonanova]

here, and ready. it may take me a couple of days to post, my birthday is tomorrow, and my mother is going to Minnesota soon, so i have some personal stuff to take care of, but i should post within 3 days.

wonder if that means today or tomorrow.

Agree with going after Nef as a priority. How do we identify her?

Anyone know what means the [question mark] after Nana's death?

[araver]

here, and ready. it may take me a couple of days to post, my birthday is tomorrow, and my mother is going to Minnesota soon, so i have some personal stuff to take care of, but i should post within 3 days.

wonder if that means today or tomorrow.

Agree with going after Nef as a priority. How do we identify her?

Anyone know what means the [question mark] after Nana's death?

The question mark means role unknown. As opposed to the role shown when someone is publicly lynched.

[araver]

I really hate how these tie rules work, so I'm not making a tie unless someone inactive votes until I go to bed (day ends around 6AM my time).

@Framm - I don't see Ant Queen's powers growing. She does get IDs from people she kill. I'm leaning on Neferpitou b/c she also gets info from people killed by Ant Queen + she has a simpler wincon (only 3 dead as opposed to 5) + she gets extra RID Kill if Ant Queen is lynched (Ant Queen can't die otherwise without a redirect in the game. EDIT: except by APR). Chances are Nefer can win faster than AQ and faster if AQ is dead.

What I find interesting so far (mid D1):

- Bonanova voting, although that costs him APR and may lead to an early demise unless he is APR-master

- GM was blocked, so definitely not AQ and not Shoot since he cannot trap himself and not Knuckle since APR exists. So, from a goodies' PoV he could be 1 of 3 other roles. 2 of which are goodie roles. Statistically it's improbable for him to be Nefer. Moreover there is no spy-type that would definitely know him to be Nefer (before D1 ends / after being blocked N1) and push for his lynch (under a randomness pretense). So, I could see Ant Queen or Nefer throwing him under the bus, but not a goodie. And not 2 goodies = 2 votes.

@Bonanova - I don't think anyone of us has a clean way of identifying Nefer before D1 ends: even if Gon made a successful RPS it won't be successful until after Day post and even if Palm followed Nefer N1 and saw someone (probably) acting on self, it still wouldn't be distinguishable from Killua or even Knuckle acting on self.

With no deterministic way ... we're down to basic mind streching in the dark. Right now, I would rather vote one of Phil, Flame and Framm. Preferably an inactive. Or Flame.

Unrelated, I see no way goodies could orchestrate a tie to get both AQ and Nefer in one day, even at the expense of a goodie. But it would be so cool, cooler than ... I forgot what I held as the coolest moment so far. Anyway, just rambling out loud.

[flamebirde]

why me? What have I done that is suspicious?

[Framm 18]

Misread Ant queen powers. Sorry.

[bonanova]

What really interests me, mid-D1, is how I could misread how APR works. No, I don't have a suicide wish or strategy, and so will remove my vote, assuming that's permissible. I thought I had 2 more days to live, regardless, and should therefore be active. Wrong. IDK whether the count was set at (1) because I listed a vote or because this is the first D/N cycle (not yet complete.) I'll leave it as is, and the host can reset it if needed. Also, because of araver's analysis the vote was probably misdirected anyway.

@araver, thanks for the analysis. I don't know what to add at this point, except that I'd be willing to die in a tie-vote with two others as a probable way to snag AQ and/or Nefer.

1) Phil1882
2) Framm18 - voting for Phil
3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster
4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?)
5) GMaster479
6) Araver - voting for Framm
7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

[Yoruichi-san]

​

What really interests me, mid-D1, is how I could misread how APR works. No, I don't have a death wish or strategy, and so will remove my vote, assuming that's permissible. I thought I had 2 more days to live, regardless, and should therefore be active. Wrong. IDK whether the count was set at (1) because I listed a vote or because this is the first D/N cycle (not yet complete.) I'll leave it as is, and Y-S can reset it if needed. Also, because of araver's analysis the vote was probably misdirected anyway.

@araver, thanks for the analysis. I don't know what to add at this point, except that I'd be willing to die in a tie-vote with two others as a probable way to snag AQ and/or Nefer.

Chairman: Yoruichi-san

Roster:

1) Phil1882

2) Framm18 - voting for Phil

3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster

4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote)

5) GMaster479

6) Araver - voting for Framm

7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

Sorry, but it's the act of voting that triggers APR, not the counting of the vote itself, since putting a vote on somebody has consequences in the Day phase, even if you change your mind, so once you vote, it can't be undone.. You can changed your mind as much as you want about actions in the Night phase (before the deadline), they don't go through or have any consequence until the Night Post.

Also, note you just created a tie, so you would die at Day's end if it stays like this, as per the tie rules.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Yoruichi-san

[araver]

Current tie is worse than previous IMHO. I will add my vote on Flame in the next post once I get a chance to quote.

@bonanova - your willingness for the tie would be proof enough. It's in the APR master's hands though. At least I'll lift the tie situation, can't help with the rest.

@Flame - besides voting almost everyone else, absolutely nothing. Care to share something once I cast the vote?

[araver]

1) Phil1882

2) Framm18 - voting for Phil

3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster

4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?)

5) GMaster479

6) Araver - voting for Flame

7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

[Yoruichi-san]

Yes, APR still 1, explained in the previous post.

Also, since the tie rules may not be completely clear on this point (I forgot to add the "(s)" to "player(s) that created the tie" this time): the tie penalty apply for every tie, i.e. if there are more than two players tied, all players responsible to creating each subsequent tie also die.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Yoruichi-san

[araver]

@Y-San - you're killing me ... but not softly enough.

So if I switch to Phil, I break the tie and hence the history of votes cast since it's 2-1. Then if switch back to Flame, I'm the only one creating a 3-way tie or is last vote on Phil/GM also counted?

P.S. You can't possibly dislike ties more than we like to explore and stretch exceptional rules.

[araver]

1) Phil1882

2) Framm18 - voting for Phil

3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster

4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?)

5) GMaster479

6) Araver - voting for Phil

7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

[araver]

1) Phil1882

2) Framm18 - voting for Phil

3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster

4) bonanova {APR 1} - (abstaining from vote: APR still (1)?)

5) GMaster479

6) Araver - voting for Flame

7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen

[Yoruichi-san]

@Y-San - you're killing me ... but not softly enough.

So if I switch to Phil, I break the tie and hence the history of votes cast since it's 2-1. Then if switch back to Flame, I'm the only one creating a 3-way tie or is last vote on Phil/GM also counted?

P.S. You can't possibly dislike ties more than we like to explore and stretch exceptional rules.

Bonanova's (capital here since it's at the beginning of a sentence) removal is what is being counted, since it's what created the tie, not the last vote. Since he created the tie before your voting effected anything, you wouldn't save him, just adding to the mountain of bodies.

P.S. I'd bet I like creating exceptional rules (and roles) more than you like to stretch them ;P...also don't under-estimate my sense of humor...I've already mentally started writing the Quentin Tarantino version of the Day Post .

Edited July 17, 2014 by Yoruichi-san

[araver]

@Y-San - I was using "we" as a numerical shield. Not quite a legion but we might just balance it out. For this particular point in time, I will bow out and accept your wishes on the matter.***

So, as it stands, Framm is the sole survivor of the tie. Does anyone, except Framm of course, have a problem with that? I fear I may have some second thoughts after asking this question out loud.

*** = Whilst bowing out of a tie I cannot change, my mind slipped further to the extreme ... endulge me for a second... down this path, should bonanova choose to cast his vote on Framm right now, it would be a bloody day indeed ... with no clear victor I pressume.

[bonanova]

Well now I have to admit I don't have a clue. The tie was removed and I was not one of the tie-ees. Then another tie was created, but it is not attributed to the player who created it but to me because at an earlier point in time I created a tie then abstained. That is as much a challenge to understand as it is to figure out who is who. I'm not even sure what if anything is open to choice for me at this point.

Edit: I read the tie rule as the way to determine what to do at the end of a day if there is no plurality AT THAT POINT. There is no need for a special rule during the evolution of the final vote during the day.

Note that after the first vote is cast each day, if the second voter does not agree with the first voter, s/he commits suicide! Because, by disagreeing with the first vote, a tie is created, no matter how momentarily.

[flamebirde]

get it all done D1? why not? Let's trust in Framm's goodieness.
However, I would prefer a longer game over a short one just for more mafia in my life.

Hence, I vote Phil.

Incidentally, if you'll look back, I voted for 2 other people. You, and Gmaster. In a game with 6 people left, switching votes once automatically makes me vote for 1/3 of the living players. Really? That's your best reason? If you want something, I'll tell you that I did show up in the N1 post. doubt it'll matter though.

[Yoruichi-san]

Well now I have to admit I don't have a clue. The tie was removed and I was not one of the tie-ees. Then another tie was created, but it is not attributed to the player who created it but to me because at an earlier point in time I created a tie then abstained. That is as much a challenge to understand as it is to figure out who is who. I'm not even sure what if anything is open to choice for me at this point.

Edit: I read the tie rule as the way to determine what to do at the end of a day if there is no plurality AT THAT POINT. There is no need for a special rule during the evolution of the final vote during the day.

Note that after the first vote is cast each day, if the second voter does not agree with the first voter, s/he commits suicide! Because, by disagreeing with the first vote, a tie is created, no matter how momentarily.

I was referring to if it was left that way, i.e. left as a tie at the end of the day. Your removal of your vote created a tie which had not been there previously. Araver did not fix the tie, he only created a three-way tie. If the tie is removed before the end then it obviously does not apply. I.e. the second voter can vote whichever way he wants unless no one else votes and the end of the day sees a 1 to 1 tie that he created.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Yoruichi-san

[Yoruichi-san]

@Y-San - I was using "we" as a numerical shield. Not quite a legion but we might just balance it out. For this particular point in time, I will bow out and accept your wishes on the matter.***

Where's that :rofl: smiley when you need it? I have no idea what you mean, but you really don't know me very well, do you ;P? I'm one of those people who the threat of numbers only serves to strengthen the resolve of, not intimidate. I.e. give me a zombie to slay, and I'll feel sorry for him, give me an army of zombies, and well..."oh my, did Christmas come early this year?" ;D

[Yoruichi-san]

Well now I have to admit I don't have a clue. The tie was removed and I was not one of the tie-ees. Then another tie was created, but it is not attributed to the player who created it but to me because at an earlier point in time I created a tie then abstained. That is as much a challenge to understand as it is to figure out who is who. I'm not even sure what if anything is open to choice for me at this point.

Edit: I read the tie rule as the way to determine what to do at the end of a day if there is no plurality AT THAT POINT. There is no need for a special rule during the evolution of the final vote during the day.

Note that after the first vote is cast each day, if the second voter does not agree with the first voter, s/he commits suicide! Because, by disagreeing with the first vote, a tie is created, no matter how momentarily.

I was referring to if it was left that way, i.e. left as a tie at the end of the day. Your removal of your vote created a tie which had not been there previously. Araver did not fix the tie, he only created a three-way tie. If the tie is removed before the end then it obviously does not apply. I.e. the second voter can vote whichever way he wants unless no one else votes and the end of the day sees a 1 to 1 tie that he created.

Well, or if everyone voted for someone else and there was a 1v1v1v1...etc tie.

Due to the slew of confusion I'm extending the Day to 3PM CST tomorrow 7/18.

Although I was kinda looking forward to Araver Unchained...;P

[araver]

If you want something, I'll tell you that I did show up in the N1 post. doubt it'll matter though.

Yes indeed, I did want something other than voting. An explanation why you voted GM for example. But this is waaay better.

The way I see it, you couldn't have been in the N1 post unless you're the Ant Queen. And it's a pretty flimsy claim to make since N2 post would give you away. Care to back out of the claim?

[araver]

Just to be clear Flame: in the N1 post only AQ and goodie block appeared. APR was added later. And I doubt immensely that you're the goodie block. Tough luck for getting CCed on that, but Nana can't speak for herself. Now if you want to claim AQ, please go ahead. The way you worded it makes it seem like you're Nefer rather than AQ. Having a save around with no block in the game would make Nefer more likely to boldly claim without getting AQ counterclaiming back.

[flamebirde]

Ah, well I didn't say my action showed up. My ROLE did.

[araver]

Ah, well I didn't say my action showed up. My ROLE did.

Yay, that's ... actually not improving your previous answer.

Short recap:

- you're dodging why you voted GM in the first place

- you're dodging why you don't want a tie with Framm as sole survivor

- you mentioned then backed out of a too harsh claim

- you still don't mention why you're voting Phil atm

So, not changing my vote.

[bonanova]

*** = Whilst bowing out of a tie I cannot change, my mind slipped further to the extreme ... endulge me for a second... down this path, should bonanova choose to cast his vote on Framm right now, it would be a bloody day indeed ... with no clear victor I pressume.

Let the blood flow.

1) Phil1882

2) Framm18 - voting for Phil

3) Flamebirde - voting for Gmaster

4) bonanova {APR 1} - voting for Framm

5) GMaster479

6) Araver - voting for Flame

7) Nana77 - DEAD [?] killed by Ant Queen