[Guest]

Me and Darth Legion have created Magicians Mafia: Rise of the sceptics, but we want any suggestions or ways to improve it.

Goodies: magic circle (wincon: confuse all baddies)

Master magician: The most skilled of all so even the sceptics respect him, can use said respect to influence everyone, cannot be killed at night, can make a vote count 0x 1x or 2x.

El mysterio: tricks have a tendency to be violent, kill

Mind masher: Has very astounding tricks, can keep people wondering how he does them all night, block

Mr. magic: Specialises in making people disappear and they are often not found for 24 hours, trap

The apprentice: Due to them being only a trainee magician tricks can go wrong in any way, random action 1-kill 2-block 3-save 4-spy 5-redirect 6-no action.

The shadow: Due to him being nimble from tricks that require contortion and an ability to go unnoticed he can use sleight of hand to grab any evidence,spy

Mentality: Can use suggestion to get someone to change their action target, redirect

Baddies:sceptics, have NK and BTSC (wincon: kill or confuse all others)

Sgt. Jackson: Very serious ex-soldier,thinks magic isn't serious enough, due to training can keep hidden and find out who someone is, spy.

Dr. Henderson: A scientist, wants to show everyone magic is nonsense and instead keep people busy with a scientific debate, block.

Revalio: Was a very good magician once, but couldn't get into the magic circle and now holds a grudge. Can use his magicianship to make people trust him and do as he says, redirect.

Indies: (wincon: live and maintain views on magic)

John: wants magic to be easier to understand but doesn't want to eliminate it, everyone wants to impress the undecide and John uses this to make people do as he wants, vote manipulator

block > spy > night kill > save > redirect > trap > kill > vote manipulation

If someone is confused it means they had the most votes and are unsure about there opinion of Magic.

Suggestions welcome!

[araver]

OK, first suggestion - magic colors

Now on a more serious note:

- I like the role descriptions (see below).

- I have a slight prob reading the Indy WinCon: "live" (till the end?) "and maintain view on magic" = undecided? This means be the last faction standing?

- Indy vote manipulation is secret? or is make one vote x0, x1,x2, or smth?

- Order of actions looks a bit new: "block > spy > night kill > save > redirect > trap > kill > vote manipulation".

If I read this correctly:

- if you trap someone, he can still NK, save, redirect and all the other actions ?

- saves don't protect from a NK, yet the NK can be blocked?

Dr. Henderson: A scientist, wants to show everyone magic is nonsense and instead keep people busy with a scientific debate, block.

This reminds me of someone

Revalio: Was a very good magician once, but couldn't get into the magic circle and now holds a grudge. Can use his magicianship to make people trust him and do as he says, redirect.

This also

[Molly Mae]

I also think the baddie faction should be called "Skeptics". Sceptics makes more for a silent 'c' so I think of septic--which is something no mafia should ever be about.

[Guest]

OK, first suggestion - magic colors

Now on a more serious note:

- I like the role descriptions (see below).

- I have a slight prob reading the Indy WinCon: "live" (till the end?) "and maintain view on magic" = undecided? This means be the last faction standing?

- Indy vote manipulation is secret? or is make one vote x0, x1,x2, or smth?

- Order of actions looks a bit new: "block > spy > night kill > save > redirect > trap > kill > vote manipulation".

If I read this correctly:

- if you trap someone, he can still NK, save, redirect and all the other actions ?

- saves don't protect from a NK, yet the NK can be blocked?

This reminds me of someone

This also

I couldn't get colours to work, sorry.

DL came up with order of actions, can those questions be directed at him

Indy vote manip is maling vote count 0x, 1x or 2x, do you think I should change that?

[araver]

I couldn't get colours to work, sorry.

DL came up with order of actions, can those questions be directed at him

Indy vote manip is maling vote count 0x, 1x or 2x, do you think I should change that?

Just select the text you want to color and hit the button next to Sizes - it will color the whole text.

Or alternatively

[color=red]write these tags before and after[/color]

to get a red text.

Indy vote manip should be stated clearly (as well as if he can manipulate ANY vote or just his OWN). Less confusion that way.

Question regarding Indy WinCon is still open: is his wincon to be the last standing?

[Guest]

I am taking suggestions for the change of the order of operations now, araver. What do you propose?

[Guest]

Just select the text you want to color and hit the button next to Sizes - it will color the whole text.

Or alternatively

[color=red]write these tags before and after[/color]

to get a red text.

Indy vote manip should be stated clearly (as well as if he can manipulate ANY vote or just his OWN). Less confusion that way.

Question regarding Indy WinCon is still open: is his wincon to be the last standing?

Pretty much, yes

[Guest]

Goodies: magic circle (wincon: confuse all baddies)

Master magician: The most skilled of all so even the sceptics respect him, can use said respect to influence everyone, cannot be killed at night, can make a vote count 0x 1x or 2x.

El mysterio: tricks have a tendency to be violent, kill

Mind masher: Has very astounding tricks, can keep people wondering how he does them all night, block

Mr. magic: Specialises in making people disappear and they are often not found for 24 hours, trap

The apprentice: Due to them being only a trainee magician tricks can go wrong in any way, random action 1-kill 2-block 3-save 4-spy 5-redirect 6-no action.

The shadow: Due to him being nimble from tricks that require contortion and an ability to go unnoticed he can use sleight of hand to grab any evidence,spy

Mentality: Can use suggestion to get someone to change their action target, redirect

Baddies:sceptics, have NK and BTSC (wincon: kill or confuse all others)

Sgt. Jackson: Very serious ex-soldier,thinks magic isn't serious enough, due to training can keep hidden and find out who someone is, spy.

Dr. Henderson: A scientist, wants to show everyone magic is nonsense and instead keep people busy with a scientific debate, block.

Revalio: Was a very good magician once, but couldn't get into the magic circle and now holds a grudge. Can use his magicianship to make people trust him and do as he says, redirect.

Indies: (wincon: live and maintain views on magic{ be last on standing})

John: wants magic to be easier to understand but doesn't want to eliminate it, everyone wants to impress the undecide and John uses this to make people do as he wants, vote manipulator

Coloured list

[Molly Mae]

Without a kill, it makes it hard to be the last one standing (the vote manip makes it not impossible). Being, perhaps, among the last two or three players would be more fitting.

6 v 3 v 1, with a Magician kill and a roll action (possible kill).

I would change an action for the roll to Choice of Action. 1-kill 2-block 3-save 4-spy 5-Choice (Kill, Block, Save, Spy, or Redirect) 6-no action.

[araver]

I am taking suggestions for the change of the order of operations now, araver. What do you propose?

I did not have a suggestion per se, just questions so far regarding "block > spy > night kill > save > redirect > trap > kill > vote manipulation"

If this is the way you want it i.e. the intended effect, no problem. Just wanted to make clear what I find a little weird:

1) If you trap someone, he can still NK, save, redirect and all the other actions ?

block > spy > night kill > save > redirect > trap > kill > vote manipulation

This means that a trap is basically useless except to stop the goodie kill. Just saying that a goodie trap only stopping goodie kills is ... kinda weird.

If you had given that trap ability to the baddies, it would have made some sense to me, but now it just looks like the goodie trapper is better off not acting for fear of interfering with goodie kills.

2) Saves don't protect from a NK, yet the NK can be blocked?

block > spy > night kill > save > redirect > trap > kill > vote manipulation

This is a little weird: the NK being able to be blocked means it has to be carried out by a specific baddie. And basically the save role is the one usually counteracting the NK (Even if it is a group kill).

In your current order, the save helps only save from goodie kills, which again, makes that role a shot in the dark which might likely interfere with goodie kills only and has no real benefit for the goodies.

And I agree with Molly Mae, it's very hard for the Indy (without a RID Kill at least if not a kill) to win this. The last standing WinCon usually asks for either powerful Indy abilities or a bigger Indy faction (in numbers).

Ways out of this: as Molly suggested (one of the last 3 standing), or a secret WinCon (like choosing and winning with a side), or give him a kill (and Last Standing) or a RID kill (and change WinCon to taking a number of targets out, even if he dies while RID killing the last target).

About the roll action - choice=kill in later nights (and usually spy in the first night). So giving the roll 2 possible kills affects the balance a lot in favor of the goodies (see Molly Mae's actions in Tombstone, he had 2 different rolls used as kills). Giving only 1 kill (as original stated by you) would make it more balanced in my opinion.

Also, try to play a game (actually several) by assigning random actions to each player

You'll get:

- a good feeling and experience on how actions interact / clash and will anticipate this before the actual hosting.

- a good feeling on the overall balance (e.g. even playing Indy's action as optimal and others as random, I would still not see a Indy win happening).

EDIT: Grammar and stuff...

Edited February 10, 2011 by araver

[Guest]

I put the order of actions together in five minutes and I'm still really noob, should the trap be further up?

[Guest]

That's up to you DL. I'd say you ask yourself these questions for various action pairs (triplets even) If X acts on Y and Y acts on Z what do I want to have happen. If X acts on Y and Y acts on X, what do I want to have happen? Those answers will help you determine order of actions. Then you just need to make sure you can explain it to the players. Typically X > Y > Z suffices...

[MissKitten]

Maybe the order of actions could be "block > spy > save > night kill > trap > redirect > kill > vote manipulation"?

I'm a noob, too. This just sounds a little better to me.

[Guest]

block > spy > save > redirect > night kill > trap > kill > vote manipulation: this look okay?

[araver]

Yeah, what Maurice said

I'm not trying to change your order (there is no "better") just trying to understand if this is the effect you intended. It's yours to tweak as you please

Also, on a related note (and I can't show you and external link atm unfortunately) people understand "Order of actions" differently. We're still trying to completely label them to avoid confusion, but until that is encompass in the Guide to Mafia, here's the short discussion (leaving a lot of details aside):

There are two key words used in the past "precedence" and "order of". I'm gonna list the extreme POVs only:

(1) To some (me and Molly included), ORDER suggests a mathematical order ( extreme POV: a turn-based/ chronological order or as executing instructions in a priority queue).

E.g. actions are "executed" in the order of actions "block > kill > redirect > spy" means:

- blocks are executed first (so they can block a spy or a kill or a redirect the blocked target intended)

- afterwards non-blocked kills are executed (preventing any redirect/spy the dead target intended)

- afterwards redirects are played ( which therefore cannot affect blocks or kills which come before)

- afterwards spies (if the spy was not blocked/killed before)

Finer grains can be obtained by using two types of order ">" or ">>" to catch for e.g.

block >> redirect - a redirect cannot ever affect a block

block > redirect - a block can stop a redirecter from acting, BUT the redirecter can affect a blocker that is not targeting him.

There are a lot of ordered universes possible FROM extreme=purely chronological= only >>

TO some in between = some relations are >> but most are > (allowing an action with less priority to affect an action with higher priority if that action does not target the origin of lesser action - e.g. above).

(2)PRECEDENCE of actions (maurice, GMaster and others)

Basically all actions happen at the same time, and the precedence ONLY comes into play if actions affect each other and cause a loop that needs to be broken:

E.g. block > redirect is called ONLY when loops occur such as "A tries to block B and B tries to redirect A to C", giving precedence to the block so that B is blocked before acting. There are other PRECEDENCE-based universes (GM's ) which I still can't grasp completely because of some weird stuff that is not representable even as a partial order (it does not even give a planar graph so that I can represent it nicely).

I'm more biased toward the (1), but I've seen very good programmers (such as dawh/SH) biased towards (2) because of the real-time analogy.

Anyway, the choice is yours, just need to tell others somehow so that they are on the same page (while they interpret the night-post)

P.S: Maurice and I have a nice example (from Tombstone) on how different universes work, but that will have to wait till we can post it properly.

EDITS: typos and stuff.

Edited February 10, 2011 by araver

[Guest]

I was assuming the use of method one.

[araver]

I was assuming the use of method one.

block > spy > save > redirect > night kill > trap > kill > vote manipulation: this look okay?

In this case, NK needs to have a carrier (since it can be blocked and redirected) which is fine.

And traps are slightly weaker than usual (usually traps act as a block and a save combined - it both blocks the target and protect it from outer-interferences).

If I were you, I'd simply switch trap and block:

trap > spy > save > redirect > night kill > block >  kill > vote manipulation

with these effects/differences:

- the (goodie) trap is now able to prevent the NK by trapping the NK carrier

- the goodie block can no longer stop the NK

- the (goodie) trap can now act a save if played on the NK target (ONLY IF you specify this - but usually that's a difference between "block" and "trap")

- the baddie block is still able to prevent a goodie kill (and does not interfere with the baddie NK)

- out of {trap, block} exactly one is still redirectable

Also, I did not ask and the 24 hours in the description might have mislead me ("in making people disappear and they are often not found for 24 hours, trap"). Is the trap intended to work only in the night or does it extend to the next day (where the trapped cannot vote or be voted for)?

[Guest]

trap > spy > save > redirect > night kill > block > kill > vote manipulationSure, this will work lol.

[Guest]

trap > spy > save > redirect > night kill > block > kill > vote manipulationSure, this will work lol.

Just make sure araver gets the vote manipulater role

[Guest]

HAHA lol.

[araver]

Just make sure araver gets the vote manipulater role

I have no problem with the vote manipulator. Except I don't expect to survive long enough to use it

EDIT: Scratch that, just saw "cannot be killed at night, can make a vote count 0x 1x or 2x". Yeah, I would definitely want that

Edited February 10, 2011 by araver

[Guest]

But since it falls under order of actions, I assume I can block it or even redirect it

[Guest]

But since it falls under order of actions, I assume I can block it or even redirect it

Vote manipulation is a day action.

[Guest]

If someone needs to have the NK make it the soldier.

[Molly Mae]

If someone needs to have the NK make it the soldier.

This can be given to a specific role, but typically the baddies decide each night who will carry it out.

[Aaryan]

when do signups start?