[Guest]

I don't suppose I need to introduce anybody to the news item about the Dove World Outreach Center and its much publicised planned burning of the Qur'an, and the predictable outrage from the Islamic world. On the face of it, there's no moral dilemma here. The Rev Terry Jones is a media ***** stirring up trouble, most of which will not land on his doorstep. If he goes ahead and burns the Qur'an, there will be riots and other repercussions. The efforts to stabilise Afghanistan and Iraq may be adversely affected. People will die as a result, probably quite a lot of people, and probably quite a lot of them will be innocent bystanders.

However, I can't help but feel that there is something of a dilemma in this. Freedom of speech can not be an absolute right, for sure. If you are in a crowded cinema and shout "FIRE!" (without cause), you are responsible for the resulting stampede and any lives lost in it. If the Rev Jones burns the Qur'an, you may say he is responsible for the lives which will be lost as a result, but also you might say that those lives will be lost because of religious people believing that they can dictate to the rest of the world what we can and cannot do, and responding with violence when their demands are not met. Should the world allow itself to be held hostage by Islam, forced to comply with what Islam wants? Of course the burning of the Qur'an is an unnecessary, provocative and insulting gesture, but so what? Are we to live in the sort of world where such gestures cannot be made?

[Guest]

If you want to print them out and make a video of yourself burning them, be my guest.

Ohh, that's what he meant. I'll stop trying to set fire to my monitor now.

[Izzy]

You went too far! (unless you mean episodes I to III, I already burned them)

*cringe* *eye twitch* THEY WERE GOOD MOVIES. Burn the ending to Episode VI, no one needs to see that... Necessary censorship right there..

Ohh, that's what he meant. I'll stop trying to set fire to my monitor now.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Izzy

[phaze]

Are you prepared to make a video of the video of me burning your posts?

Edit Sorry: are you prepared to make a video of you burning the video you made of the video of me burning your posts?

Edited September 9, 2010 by phaze

[Izzy]

Of course! I'll even mirror it all over the internetz if you like. Then I'll make a video of me burning your post while playing the video of you burning my post in the background. I'll ship it off to the middle east labeled "A guide on how to handle this!", and will accept my Noble Peace Prize on any day this week besides Saturday. Get to it.

[phaze]

Oh Izzy...

In all your rationality you still lack compassion

When we have burnt all the videos and purposely burnt all the books (science ones included)to purposely offend everyone, what then?

You are on the path to the dark side...

[Izzy]

Bleh, it doesn't offend anyone to burn books. On a scale that large, it's honestly just a waste of resources. Ready for some compassion?

OMG. WTF?!

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — The minister of a Florida church said he has canceled plans to burn copies of the Quran because the leader of a much-opposed plan to build an Islamic Center near ground zero has agreed to move its location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed.

The Rev. Terry Jones said Thursday that Americans oppose the mosque being built at the location and that Muslims do not want the Quran burned. He said instead of his plan to burn the books on Saturday to mark the ninth anniversary of 9/11, he will be flying to New York to speak to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf about moving the mosque.

"We are, of course, now against any other group burning Qurans," Jones said during a news conference. We would right now ask no one to burn Qurans. We are absolutely strong on that. It is not the time to do it."

Wtfffffffffffff. What a douchebag, this was probably his plan all along. I hope they don't have to move the community center because the pastor used to media to fulfill his unfair agenda.

*edit* The dark side has cookies.. Look, as Jedi, I'm a defender of peace, but my allegiance isn't to the Republic, it's to the Jedi Order, which involves defending peoples' rights first and foremost.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Izzy

[phaze]

Bleh, it doesn't offend anyone to burn books.

Not everyone is as hard to offend as you..

Maybe on some unconscious level you may still be offended

Because I don't live in US when you mentioned bananaman I had no idea you were talking about Ray Comfort and thought it referred to a Saturday morning cartoon.

Yes, it probably was his intention all along, He needs to read his bible more to learn to forgive.

[Guest]

These people wouldn't burn the Qur'an if they had loved ones serving in the ranks. They wouldn't burn the Qur'an if they knew any Muslims.

What these Qur'an-burners are doing isn't illegal.

But I would invite them to join the Army, ship out to Afghanistan, and burn a Qur'an there. I invite all Qur'an-burners to burn a Qur'an in Kabul. Don't hide behind the protection our brave men and women pay for daily with their lives, only to commit acts that jeopardize their lives. You make a mockery of their sacrifice.

Burning the Qur'an on US soil is an act of un-American cowards. Our country deserves better. To General Petreus, and to all soldiers serving in the United States armed forces, I apologize for this offense; I for one thank you for your service, and I pray for your safe return home

In a perfect world, you could burn whatever book you want and no one would care (but no one would want to burn any book, because it would be a perfect world). But that's not the world we live in. The act of burning the Qur'an is unnecessary and disrespectful in itself. The fact that it puts human lives in (further) danger makes it even worse.

[Izzy]

Not everyone is as hard to offend as you..

Maybe on some unconscious level you may still be offended

Yes, it probably was his intention all along, He needs to read his bible more to learn to forgive.

I'm pretty easily offended if you actually insult me. Insulting my (lack of) religion or any of my other beliefs will just let me reach the obvious conclusion that you're (not you, anyone) an inflammatory idiot that isn't worth anything more than a laugh. People that get upset over religious, country-related, etc. insults are just as bad. Guys, you've all been indoctrinated into your religious affiliation and patriotism. Either over come it, or realize people from other cultures go through the exact same thing with different beliefs, meaning you shouldn't whine about it when two two different world views clash. Gawd, humanity is annoying.

Doubtful. Trust me, if I'm offended, it will be known.

Lawl, agreed.

[Guest]

Bleh, it doesn't offend anyone to burn books. On a scale that large, it's honestly just a waste of resources. Ready for some compassion?

OMG. WTF?!

Wtfffffffffffff. What a douchebag, this was probably his plan all along. I hope they don't have to move the community center because the pastor used to media to fulfill his unfair agenda.

*edit* The dark side has cookies.. Look, as Jedi, I'm a defender of peace, but my allegiance isn't to the Republic, it's to the Jedi Order, which involves defending peoples' rights first and foremost.

Yeah, I read that, but the follow-up seems to be that Feisal Rauf agreed to meet with "Rev." Jones and nothing more, though personally, I find that to be a cop-out on the Imam's part because Jones doesn't deserve the time of day he's already received.

Also, have you read Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451"?

[Izzy]

Matters are only going to worsen if they agree to move it, eugh. *sighhhh*

I have not. Why?

[Guest]

Jones doesn't deserve the time of day he's already received.

And yet the dafter this saga gets, the more compelling it is. I figured he'd back off after God told him to, but doing a deal that wasn't really a deal with the imam planning the mosque near ground zero? Awesome

[Izzy]

How long do you think the chain will get? I want some scientologists to step in and threaten with Bible Burning if the Rev doesn't lay off the Muslims.

It's never felt so good to be on the sidelines.

[Quag]

thos thread is getting silly, just like the dude who wants to burn books.

silly is silly and shoudl be laughed at o better yet ignored. if this guy was ignored he would go away

[Izzy]

Responding to silliness with silliness is the best way to go about it, no? Gawd forbid anyone take this man seriously.. Oh wait, people did.

[Guest]

[M]aybe the problem is that Rev Jones is burning the Qur'an for the wrong reason, that being the desire for publicity and fuss.

Of course he's doing it for the publicity! I'm sure his goal is simply to be irritating, betting that he will incite hysteria in at least part of the extremist minority. Unfortunately, that's a pretty safe bet, and he will undoubtedly end up feeling vindicated. An interesting thing about human nature is how the reaction of the injured party or parties often changes people's opinion of the original offense. If we all ignored him, Rev. Jones would simply look like a douche. However, if he manages to provoke somebody into being even douchier, he will gain support simply by being the lesser of two douches. I'll bet he's on his knees right now praying for a death-sentence proclamation from some Imam nobody's ever heard of, so he can then denounce all Muslims as barbaric heathens. What he doesn't seem to realize, however, is that he is also providing Muslim extremists a point from which to rally support. Just as the only news we receive from the middle east concern terrorist attacks, all they ever hear of us are stories such as this. Acceptance and tolerance aren't newsworthy anywhere. Or maybe he just doesn't care, as long as he ends up with more sheep in his flock. Whatever his motives, the only thing he is guaranteed to accomplish is further polarizing the world. Well done, douche.

The fact that Rev. Jones has so much support, that this is even controversial, and the (ridiculous) outcry over a Muslim community center in NYC (none of which I can believe is even news, let alone a matter the President feels the need to comment on), is a sad commentary on the state of humanity. We really need to grow up, or at least grow thicker skin.

Regarding the OP, you're basically asking where we should draw the line between freedom of expression and hate-crime. Unfortunately, nobody can provide a answer that is satisfactory to everybody, simply because everybody has a different opinion when it comes to deciding to what degree an act or expression is hateful.

[EDM]

Just found out about the update on Jones.....

Great.....he's worse than a disgraceful low person......he's a celeb hog!!!

Stupid freak!!!!

[Guest]

It makes me wonder: why is religion such a compelling topic? Everyone seems to have strong and unyielding opinions, and people keep discussing over and over without anyone ever changing anyone's mind. And I don't know about you, but I can't stop thinking about it. I'm trying to read a text on scientific method for my Engineering course, and while reading the part about Galileo and the Inquisition, I can't stop thinking about all the arguments I have seem and made about the disagreement between religion and science. That's interesting, and rather annoying at the same time. Maybe I should start a topic about that, but I don't feel like doing so right now.

[phaze]

<snip/>Everyone seems to have strong and unyielding opinions, and people keep discussing over and over without anyone ever changing anyone's mind. <snip/> Maybe I should start a topic about that, but I don't feel like doing so right now.

Anyone else see the irony in this?

[Guest]

Anyone else see the irony in this?

I meant I should start another topic because my reply was off topic. But you're right, discussing that is pointless. I Just thought it was worth mentioning.

[Quag]

pontless perhaps but it can be amusing (or is that confusing?)

[Izzy]

It's simple, really. Science is true, regardless of religion. Religion may be true, unless stated otherwise by science. What's the problem here? Empirical facts > fairy tales.

[Izzy]

It's simple, really. Science is true, regardless of religion. Religion may be true, unless stated otherwise by science. What's the problem here? Empirical facts > fairy tales.

Might as well address this before anyone brings it up: I'm not suggesting science is infallible. Mistakes are made, and theories are appropriately thrown out when that happens. However, when experiments are repeated leading to the same results, obviously that should give people *some* incentive to accept the conclusion, irrespective of the implications it may have on their other beliefs.

[Guest]

From what I've read this afternoon, it seems that science doesn't take anything as "true". Only expalanations that make sense. For example, we see the light of the Sun, feel it's heat, Earth "seems" to be orbitating it, so the most obvious explanation is that there's a giant fireball there. But science doesn't take that as absolute and undeniable truth. There are other, more complicated explanations. In fact, after quantum mechanics, scientists realized that nothing really exists. Everything is nothing. Or maybe I just read it wrong. I think I'm gonna read it all over again (actually I don't really have a choice).

[EDM]

It's simple, really. Science is true, regardless of religion. Religion may be true, unless stated otherwise by science. What's the problem here? Empirical facts > fairy tales.

Thankfully, Religion is NOT fairy tales....

Correcting Statement: Empirical facts = Religious historical facts >>> fairy tales and other garbage.......