[Guest]

I don't suppose I need to introduce anybody to the news item about the Dove World Outreach Center and its much publicised planned burning of the Qur'an, and the predictable outrage from the Islamic world. On the face of it, there's no moral dilemma here. The Rev Terry Jones is a media ***** stirring up trouble, most of which will not land on his doorstep. If he goes ahead and burns the Qur'an, there will be riots and other repercussions. The efforts to stabilise Afghanistan and Iraq may be adversely affected. People will die as a result, probably quite a lot of people, and probably quite a lot of them will be innocent bystanders.

However, I can't help but feel that there is something of a dilemma in this. Freedom of speech can not be an absolute right, for sure. If you are in a crowded cinema and shout "FIRE!" (without cause), you are responsible for the resulting stampede and any lives lost in it. If the Rev Jones burns the Qur'an, you may say he is responsible for the lives which will be lost as a result, but also you might say that those lives will be lost because of religious people believing that they can dictate to the rest of the world what we can and cannot do, and responding with violence when their demands are not met. Should the world allow itself to be held hostage by Islam, forced to comply with what Islam wants? Of course the burning of the Qur'an is an unnecessary, provocative and insulting gesture, but so what? Are we to live in the sort of world where such gestures cannot be made?

[Guest]

I had the same initial reaction to the whole thing. When I think of book-burning, I think of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" and the Nazi book burnings; irreconcilable destruction of knowledge in my mind. But this isn't exactly the same in that he's on the fringe, rather than pushing the issue from the top. Also, based on American First Amendment rights, I'm not sure what he wants to do can be prohibited. But what he's doing is most certainly counterproductive to world peace and like you said, at the end of the day, it is nothing more than a craven publicity stunt as far as he's concerned. I doubt that he really cares about the Qu'ran one way or the other, but he does know that burning one will attract media attention. Which is another reason I'd like to stop him; for being such a self-centered something-or-other.

Some people put a lot of stake in symbols. For me it doesn't matter. Conservatives have always decried flag-burning as this horrible desecration of our essence or something. If someone burns the flag to which I pledge allegiance, that has no impact on my allegiance to that flag. The underlying idea behind the flag still exists, just not that particular instance of the flag. The flag is just a symbol. When someone is trying to destroy the underlying meaning of the flag, then I have a problem with it.

I personally would treat books to which I adhere (not that I adhere to any such books) in a similar light. But I know that that isn't the same for other people. Like I said, some people find such symbolism meaningful. I imagine many Christians would be mortified by someone trying to start a Bible-burning session. Whether that would spark violence here or elsewhere in response, I'm not sure, but it certainly is a provocative action that intends to evoke a reaction from someone or some group of people. That should play a part in determining how the situation should be handled.

In this particular instance, we have actionable intelligence from the general in charge that says that this idiot's actions are liable to put troops directly in harm's way. In spite of these warnings, he has so far insisted on going ahead with the Qu'ran burning. It looks like on the surface that he does have the right to do so and there is the factor of considering whether or not peaceful people should be kowtowing to the extremists' whims.

But with any religious doctrine, there will be extremists who are unreasonable and will never change their ways. The best we can do is to marginalize them and work to support the efforts of moderates who do not support the extremes of their religion. This Qu'ran-burning session certainly flies in the face of that sort of effort. It has an immediate adverse effect on the efforts of moderates to combat the extremists in the group. The extremists can show this action to those who are sympathetic to their cause, or who are undecided, as a reason why the West must be fought. The fact that this can have an impact far outside the place where it's occurring certainly bothers me.

As a case in point, the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam in charge of the Cordoba House in Manhattan just wrote an op-ed piece in the New York Times that showcases the efforts of moderates to stem extremism, and how counter-extremism isn't really helping (I guess I'm probably reading a little into his words, but a couple paragraphs jumped out at me):

President Obama and Mayor Michael Bloomberg both spoke out in support of our project. As I traveled overseas, I saw firsthand how their words and actions made a tremendous impact on the Muslim street and on Muslim leaders. It was striking: a Christian president and a Jewish mayor of New York supporting the rights of Muslims. Their statements sent a powerful message about what America stands for, and will be remembered as a milestone in improving American-Muslim relations.

The wonderful outpouring of support for our right to build this community center from across the social, religious and political spectrum seriously undermines the ability of anti-American radicals to recruit young, impressionable Muslims by falsely claiming that America persecutes Muslims for their faith. These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide. This is why Americans must not back away from completion of this project. If we do, we cede the discourse and, essentially, our future to radicals on both sides. The paradigm of a clash between the West and the Muslim world will continue, as it has in recent decades at terrible cost. It is a paradigm we must shift.

What the "'Dove' Outreach Center" is doing is playing right into the hands of those extremists mentioned in the second paragraph. It gives them an opportunity to say that "America persecutes Muslims." Rev. Terry Jones is the other half of the radicals to whom we risk ceding our future...

I'd like there to be a stark, yes or no answer to this question, but I don't have it. All I can say is that the best possible course of action would be that there would be a total media blackout on his stunt since it is first and foremost a publicity stunt and I think that he should be allowed to do it if he really, really wants to, but he shouldn't get the enjoyment of having the media there covering the whole idiotic enterprise. But knowing the media, they can't possibly pass up this shiny stone, even though it's just gypsum at best, cesium at worst. I would like for this not to happen since it helps no one and hurts (potentially) a lot of people. But I don't think I can say that it can be prohibited as an idea (though I've heard that the Fire Marshall says he can't do it as a matter of public safety, so that may intervene where the First Amendment cannot tread ).

[Guest]

I didn't know anything about it (I'm not american and I don't watch/read news much) so I read this CNN article

I thought I didn't even know what the Qur'an was, but it turns out it has a different name in Portuguese. Anyway, I think both these religions consider an old text to be more important than human lives and anything else, and I think they're both wrong in that. People can have their religions, but they shouldn't tease and harm others with different beliefs. That is a point that should be made, but this event is not the right way to make it. So, although I disagree with much of what muslims have done, I think this event (as well as the other event planned by this church) should be cancelled, for the good of all of us.

[Guest]

I feel that it is personally wrong. Why? Because it is wrong to believe that all Muslims are terrorists. Sure, there are Muslim extremist groups, but that doesn't change the fact that Islam is pretty much like any other religion. (Don't kill and other moral points).

There have been plenty of crimes done in the name of God, or some other entity, but that doesn't change the fact that most religions are peaceful and should not be discriminated against.

[Izzy]

Incinerate the books!

The idiot will go to jail for not having a permit to start a large scale fire, anyway (he's been informed and stil plans to go through with it). This goes for religions and philosophies of all sorts: practice the peace you teach. Write the redneck and his followers off as some dispensable layer of filth polluting the ground of the world that they'll never rise above. There's no reason to start a holy war over it. If anything, burn some bibles to make it even (yay, mutual benefits!). It irritates me so deeply that people still haven't realized that their provocative elementary-level playground stunts and cries for attention serve no purpose and do way more harm than good. =/

To be fair, I recall several flag burnings from the middle east being boardcasted on the news. I have a total lack of empathy for people that take their patriotism seriously to the extent that they'll retaliate with physical attacks. As far as was ever reported (yay censorship ), America handled it fairly well. I don't understand why we should expect differently now that they've been placed in the same shoes the Americans once stood in. If there's some outbreak, *shrug* they'll sort it out themselves. I know what the f'uckwit is doing is morally unjustified and on par with complete idiocy, but we shouldn't stop him from doing it on the basis of offending people. That's one of the things I love about America.

Mmm, this reminds me of some song lyrics.

I'll throw a pie in the face of piety

I'll torch a Torah right off a bridge

I am a reverend of irreverence

I'm a shill for any sacrilege

[...]

Anything that is your holy or sacred

I'm gonna desecrate and use in jest

But you'll never hear a crack about Mohammad

'Cause I don't wanna get shot in the chest

Blasphemy, isn't this fun?

Rob a rabbi, bugger a nun!

Blasphemy, want some more?

Mother Mary, the virgin w'hore!

Edited September 8, 2010 by Izzy

[phaze]

Burn Izzys post

:mob:

[Izzy]

^ Eh, the Bananaman already did it for you by destroying The Origin of the Species. (Which.. I guess is as close to a "holy book" as you'll get.)

[phaze]

The only record of "Origin of the species" being burnt was as satire on Family Guy

[Izzy]

Not what I meant. What he did was worse.

[phaze]

So how does it feel to have someone mess with your holy cow?

[Izzy]

I'm largely unaffected by it. The only potential problem it will pose is if people start citing his version of the book as an argument against evolution because of the "lack of evidence". It would bother me less if he burned it than his rewriting of it. ....Haha, the Qur'an is derived from the Bible so I guess Christians are sort of in the same boat.

Except, you know, the minor difference being that Darwin's theory is factually based (and doesn't attempt to disprove any god, I don't see why so many people take a problem with it ), so the omissions take away from the academic integrity while going from Bible to Qur'an is about as significant as Santa wearing black or brown boots.. This is in small and gray font because I feel the difference should be noted, though I didn't necessarily want to point it out. ..Yeah)

[phaze]

I think stirring up contention via book burning is not a wise idea. What we need in this world is more forgiveness for offenses rather than people who cause more issues by poring more fuel onto already flammable arguments. I tire of the "But, he hit me first argument". Probably the smartest thing any religious community could do in this circumstance is apply the contents of the book rather than be incensed about the physical manifestation of the book. A religious community that does this deserves our respect.

[Izzy]

Just realized this is happening in Florida. I swear, we have all the crazy people.

[EDM]

This is a sick, twisted and extremely disgusting thing for anyone to be doing......How would they feel if someone went to burn Bibles on easter or christmas??? This is absurd, and frankly, I'm totally against it.....

I believe in peace between all religions/non-religious.......why should one jerk ruin everything that our world has been working for for so long?

I bet the morons haven't even read the Qur'an......If they did, then they'd never even dream of it......It's people like them who cause wars and terror everywhere......I mean, stooping to the level of a terrorist?

UGH!!! I feel like throwing up already......

And I bet that idiot who came up with the idea is about as low as Osama.....

That dirty Pastor is no Christian.......true christians would NEVER even dream of such a thing as this.....I bet he's in league with the devil, himself......

Stupid extremist devil freak!!!

Edited September 9, 2010 by EDM

[Quag]

I know what the f'uckwit is doing is morally unjustified and on par with complete idiocy, but we shouldn't stop him from doing it on the basis of offending people.

basically i agree withthis bit. the guy is an idiot. but fortunately being an idiot is not against the law, otherwise there would be more people in prison than out of prison.

America is a free country that means you are free to be a jerk if you want. shame really but the alternative where we make it illegal to be a jerk/idiot takes away everyones freedom.

[Guest]

This is a sick, twisted and extremely disgusting thing for anyone to be doing......How would they feel if someone went to burn Bibles on easter or christmas???

It is sick and twisted, though I lol'd at the bit about easter or christmas. As far as I know, September 11th isn't [yet] a muslim holiday (though it used to be a public holiday in Pakistan). Still, maybe the problem is that Rev Jones is burning the Qur'an for the wrong reason, that being the desire for publicity and fuss. The right reason to burn a Qur'an is because people hold it sacred. Maybe it would be better to have small private Qur'an-burning sessions. If you do not have a Qur'an, another holy book or an American flag will also do.

[EDM]

It is wrong to burn ANY holy book.....or any book for that matter.......take it from a religious point of view, a moral or ethical point of view, and even an environmental point of view (burning a book is about the same as burning trees....)

The easter/christmas thing is because this year, Eid is tomorrow and the day after (10th and 11th)......same thing, right?

That so-called Rev. is nothing but a fraud; especially if he's gonna do something that is condemnable in the eyes of his religion, morals, etc.

Burning the Qur'an is about the same as burning the Bible; almost the same stuff on life......prophets and history of the old books are same.....so it proves that he doesn't know anything.......

[Guest]

It is wrong to burn ANY holy book.....or any book for that matter.......take it from a religious point of view, a moral or ethical point of view, and even an environmental point of view (burning a book is about the same as burning trees....)

I agree with the environmental aspect of that. Burning books has a negative symbolic connotation. I also wouldn't want to imply any sympathy for Rev Jones.

However the burning of a holy book is different from the burning of a normal book. There is no real destruction of information going on, since there are plenty of other copies about. More to the point it is an act of sacrilege, and in that regard I consider it a good thing.

[EDM]

Yes....burning a holy book is different because it is sacred to us religious.......It's not like burning a normal book; it's worse......not just sentiments.....everything that a christian believes in (peace, love, tolerance, etc.) is just discarded when something like this is done.......

If someone were to come up and take a copy of the constitution and burn it, would you accept it? even with the excuse 'there are many copies around; no real distruction of information going on....', would you let it happen??? *assuming there are many copies of it....*

Edited September 9, 2010 by EDM

[Izzy]

EDM, the only thing it is "WRONG" to burn are children, animals, and things that don't belong to you. Who cares what it symbolizes?

[Izzy]

Burn the constitution! Burn the holy books! Burn the Star Wars movies (in case people thought I was being biased here). Why? It means you're standing up for something you believe in and are taking a non-violent (ish) approach to a political protest. Why else? Because it doesn't actually matter. People need to stop getting offended over *everything*.

[EDM]

didn't you say that you don't mind who does what as long as it doesn't harm others around them?

well.....here, if a holy book is burned, the people will be emotionally affected, the radicals will just become worse and attack us more......a war may break out, harming everyone around us......do you still think it's ok?

*Izzy, you may not understand what it means to us.....but it's wrong to burn the book, that's it.....

Edited September 9, 2010 by EDM

[Izzy]

Yeah, and that's their fault for taking something seriously to the extent to start a war over it. Considering Islam preaches peace, they're huge hypocrites if this gets out of hand. Which is why I think the extremists are just looking for another excuse to attack and recruit, which wouldn't change even if this didn't happen.

[phaze]

In the name of freedom of expression burn Izzys posts!

Edit: Surely they aren't more important than the works of George Lucas

Edited September 9, 2010 by phaze

[Izzy]

If you want to print them out and make a video of yourself burning them, be my guest. I'll certainly be entertained.

[Guest]

Burn the Star Wars movies

You went too far! (unless you mean episodes I to III, I already burned them)