Government for the people. How?

[Izzy]

The objective of this thread is to altruistically* design a political structure wherein the needs and interests of EVERY inhabitant of this country are met. (None of this "general public" crap, we should try to make everyone happy. ) It's impossible to not be aware of how inconceivable this sounds, but I think by being mindful of what we're trying to accomplish, but.. just might be feasible?**

Now, before we can even begin devising laws, creating our constitution, bill of rights, etc., I think it's best we assemble a list of what people want from their government. Feel free to contribute ANYTHING. (I stole some of these from the world's smallest political quiz and the bill of rights. >_>)

1. Government should not censor speech, press, media, or internet.
2. Military service should be voluntary.
3. There should be no laws regarding sex for consenting adults, where a consenting adult is anyone of 16 years of age or older.
4. Repeal laws prohibiting adult possession and use of drugs.
5. End government barriers to international free trade.
6. Let people control their own retirement; privatize Social Security.
7. Keep government welfare, but no taxation without representation.
8. Freedom of speech, religion, sexuality, peaceful protests, and petition.
9. Soldiers may not be quartered in a house without the consent of the owner.
10. People may not be unreasonably searched or kept in captivity.
11. The right to a free, public, and speedy trial.
12. Laws are to remain the same from State to State.
13. Eventual globalization is a priority.

*We can get into the semantics of altruism later. I have.. mixed feelings, but this most closely elucidates my intentions. (Lol, I swear, I bounce back and forth from being the apathetic hippy civilian who just wants to live to the extremely fervent humanitarian practically daily. >_>)
** Eh, truthfully, it isn't. Too many people disagree on matters of religion, which define the moral code for a LOT of people (even if they don't strictly adhere to it, haha). We need to agree now to define morals for ourselves and not base them off of religious texts. Like, if someone proposes "Don't kill", that's perfectly acceptable, and I expect it to be fully ratified. If someone else suggests "Love God", this is more open to debate. While you can submit ideas that coincide with religious texts, submit them because they are mandates you want and agree with, not just because your scripture of choice tells you to follow them.

Edited February 13, 2014 by bonanova

[unreality]

how about no abortions at all? Because if you kill it in the first trimester, it could have easily looked like a baby 5 months later. That's a terrible excuse. Izzy just because religious people think abortion is bad for another reason doesn't mean you have to think it's good. It's like murder - they think it's bad because they'll go to hell. You think it's bad because it's wrong in your moral sense. To me, it's the same with abortion. It's an act of extreme selfishness to kill your own child, even if you don't think you're ready for it- there are other people that are ready for one and can't find it. The excuse of "there are unwanted children in the world so we should do abortions" is just cruel. Would you rather be alive and unwanted, or dead? And the argument "women will just get them anyway, they'll go to more dangerous back-alley abortions" is a valid one but I think that will actually deter women from doing that unless they really are desperate enough to do that.

How about a compromise and having like a first-week-only "post facto birth control" option? But it has to come with counseling and other support. And we'll boost support for orphanages, adoption agencies, women who have to give birth, etc.

[Framm 18]

I know that y'all are past this point, but I wanted to reply back

I also believe that people should make money based on how much they work, and that the rich should be taxed more than the middle class or poor. (I'm part socialist =)

I would still like to know why you think that the rich should be taxed more. If I am not mistaken the taxes here are based off a percentage of what you make, so even if they are making more money, they also pay more taxes. Here in the US anyways.

Framm, with the work deal, I think that's a good idea, but don't start it at 16. High school doesn't even end until you're 18, and most people tend to go to uni afterwards. If you have no intentions of going back to school, then you should get a job, but if you're family-less and getting a PhD, you shouldn't be forced to work through it. I think once you've gotten a degree you're satisfied with, you should have at least 2 years to chill, and then get a job, or attempt. ..But, what do we do with people that thought? It doesn't seem right to throw them in jail.

I just threw numbers out there, if someone wants to get a job out there at 16 then let them. College is the same way, if they want a job, they cn have it. I am not so sure on the 2 year relaxing though, it would be kind of hard to feed yourself let alone pay for rent and stuff if they don't have a job.

They don't go to jail, just the government will not grant them any kind of welfare. They would have to give documentation that they applied for the job and give numbers for the jobs that they were given interviews for, they would only be checked after a certain time period to make sure that they are not just job hunting to stay on welfare.

Oh and I am for a mandatory 3 year Military stint, then you could stay in or remove yourself from the military. That way everyone has some military experience just in case.

This seems like a wishlist of how society should run (I may be wrong, but that is just how it seems). I am not getting into the whole abortion thing again, there is a whole thread devoted to it.

[gvg]

Unreality: What if having the child would kill the mother? And what in the case of rape? These are times when it's OK to me. Your birth control thing is a good idea though.

Framm: I live in the US, and I remember Bush's tax cuts for the rich. NOT cool. I just don't want something like that, and I want the percentage to increase the higher you go. For ex., 25% for rich, 8% or lower for middle, nearly nil, maybe 1%, for poor. And military shouldn't be mandatory. If war is made illegal, there wouldn't be a need for a military anyway =). I still think my idea with the illegal immigrants would work; until they're legal, they have to serve. It should scare them away. I agree with you about the welfare thing; only help those who attempt to, or do, help themselves.

[Izzy]

Woooooah. No mandatory military! Entirely optional, if it all discourage. Also, militaries should NOT be permitted to come to high schools to try to recruit students. It makes me sick to my stomach every time I see them on my campus. One of my friends registered, and I'm so scared.. =/ I don't want to live in a country that will force me to die for it. I'm mostly pacifist anyway, and I strongly believe EVERY situation has a diplomatic solution.

Unreality, but what about if the woman just *didn't* know? By your own argument, the first week is no different from the first trimester. An abortion is a serious decision, and the woman will need time to think it out. The point is it ISN'T a human, it ISN'T alive, and it DOES NOT have rights. Most pregnancy tests don't even work until a week or two after conception. By the same standards, you might as well make male masturbation illegal and female menstruation, because every time either happens a potential life is killed. There's no difference when the sperm and the egg meet, it's the same potential, but it isn't a person.

By all means, don't criminalize the morning after pill or anything, but abortions are.. I guess "good" ways of rectifying stupid mistakes. Idk.. Women will STILL get them, or women will give birth to their baby and kill it. *shrug* I think that's a lot worse.

[Guest]

I disagree with making drugs legal. You can't trust the common man to know what is best for them. Not everyone is an expert on everything. I don't really like the fact, but it is fact nonetheless.

[unreality]

Unreality, but what about if the woman just *didn't* know?

didn't know what? That they are the vessel for the next generation?

By your own argument, the first week is no different from the first trimester.

Oh i know. It's all about the potential. That week thing was just an attempt to make a compromise with you and gvg

. The point is it ISN'T a human, it ISN'T alive, and it DOES NOT have rights.

We're inventing a government system here - that includes saying what has rights. It IS alive, by the way. Or will be, if you let nature play its course.

Most pregnancy tests don't even work until a week or two after conception. By the same standards, you might as well make male masturbation illegal and female menstruation, because every time either happens a potential life is killed. There's no difference when the sperm and the egg meet, it's the same potential, but it isn't a person.

they're zygotes until they meet up -then they're a person. It's not a unique person until conception happens, IMO.

By all means, don't criminalize the morning after pill or anything, but abortions are.. I guess "good" ways of rectifying stupid mistakes. Idk.. Women will STILL get them, or women will give birth to their baby and kill it. *shrug* I think that's a lot worse.

I don't know,I just don't know

[Izzy]

NickFleming, we will rewrite DARE classes so everyone is thoroughly informed. It won't be this "DRUGS ARE BAD FOR YOU, JUST SAY NO!" sh*t. It'll be legitimate information, a lot of it similar to the vaults of Erowid. The average man will know, just like the average man knows of the dangers of tobacco.

Unreality, didn't know that they were pregnant. People are going to have sex, there's no way we can stop that. People also use condoms and other forms of birth control. Unwanted pregnancies still happen, do to stupidity or unprotected one night stands or whatever. The embryo is still a) not human, b) a parasite c)living inside a human being who has rights over her own body. It *is alive*, but it's not human by any standards. *shrug*

Unless you propose we stop eating animals (lol, please don't), then.. I can't take your argument. Would having a miscarriage be manslaughter? Accidentally killing your baby is murder..

It's.. not a unique "person". It's a unique bundle of cells. ..It really isn't any more special than the animal slides we look at under microscopes in middle school biology.

Blackmarket abortions will be SOOO much more dangerous. If we start a war against abortion, it'll be just as bad as the current war on drugs.

(Wow, I can't believe I'm fighting so adamantly for something I hate.)

[gvg]

Izzy: I agree with everything you said about the military. However, once again, I believe that a fetus is alive (Cells are living, after all) and after a while deserve some rights, at least after month eight. Can we agree that month eight and up, abortions are illegal, and in the second trimester, it's heavily taxed? Also, if it is a rape or can cause MAJOR harm or death to the woman, the government can help pay. Why should they be punished for the stupid mistake of someone else?

And yes, reforming the DARE program is a good idea.

Unreality: I agree with your compromise. =)

Nick Fleming: I agree with you. Not everyone is an expert, but I do suppose, as Izzy said, that giving them proper information would help.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think teaching Intelligent Design in public schools is a good idea. Anyone disagree?

Edited July 10, 2010 by gvg

[Izzy]

Yeah, eight month and up = illegal. They've had more than enough time, and that baby is perfectly capable of surviving on its own. I agree the fetuses are alive, but they aren't human yet, they're still parasites. I think something is "human" when it is capable of livng outside of the host's body, as babies generally eight months and up can do.

Nothing is to be taught in schools that is not scientifically verified if it falls into the scientific curriciulum. That means no ID, or creationism under any other name they decide to give it.

Oh, it should be illegal to blast music from your car that outsiders can hear it. Maybe we can make it so speakers don't even go that loud?

[Framm 18]

Framm: I live in the US, and I remember Bush's tax cuts for the rich. NOT cool. I just don't want something like that, and I want the percentage to increase the higher you go. For ex., 25% for rich, 8% or lower for middle, nearly nil, maybe 1%, for poor. And military shouldn't be mandatory. If war is made illegal, there wouldn't be a need for a military anyway =). I still think my idea with the illegal immigrants would work; until they're legal, they have to serve. It should scare them away. I agree with you about the welfare thing; only help those who attempt to, or do, help themselves.

I still don't get why though. They are paying more taxes as it is, so why should they have to pay a higher percentage just because they earn more money?

Woooooah. No mandatory military! Entirely optional, if it all discourage. Also, militaries should NOT be permitted to come to high schools to try to recruit students. It makes me sick to my stomach every time I see them on my campus. One of my friends registered, and I'm so scared.. =/ I don't want to live in a country that will force me to die for it. I'm mostly pacifist anyway, and I strongly believe EVERY situation has a diplomatic solution.

As for the Military idea, Switzerland (the most war neutral country, IMO. Still don't know how they stayed out of either World War. ) has a mandatory Military stint. I just think that preparing for the inevitable, is a necessary precaution. I don't like war either, but it is something that cannot be avoided as long as there are humans still around. @gvg: How can you make war illegal, and if you did, do you really think that the instigators (sp?) would really care?

@Izzy: It only takes one nutcase to cause a war. *cough*Hitler*cough* (first one to pop into my head).

And can we not get into that debate again, it has been played to death.

[Izzy]

..I think everyone should pay the same percent. I've never taken an economics class, so I'm not really sure how taxation works, but let me play this out for you. There are five men. One makes $1,000 a year, the second makes $10,000, third $100,000, fourth $1,000,000 and the fith $10,000,000.

Now, say every year, we tax them 10% (I have no idea how much this is compared to current taxes, but this is totally hypothetical). From the first man, the government will get $100, second $1000, third $10,000, fourth $100,000, and fifth $1,000,000. That $1 million vs. $1 hundred is a HUGE difference. We don't need to up the percentage for richer people. We need to find out the budget our government needs to be stable and know the income of the country's residents. We then tax them based off of that (churches too!), and we should have enough money to support ourselves.

I still don't think military should be mandatory. Maybe mandatory training, but not active service? Like dude, I'll totally "become a traitor" or bang a chick to get kicked out of the military if it means I don't have to serve in Iraq.

[Guest]

On abortion. According to the Journal of the American Medical Association a pregnancy is perfectly viable after the 27th week (over 6 months) and is completely inviable before the 21st week (so anything before 5 months give or take a week or so.) I understand we each have our own opinions on the matter, but I doubt any of us our doctors Therefore, I propose to simply have late-term abortion illegal and leave it at that. This goes with what was mentioned earlier on that there are people fully capable and willing to accept these children into their lives.

Now on whether or not a fetus is considered "human"or not seems to be highly differential depending on whom you ask. There really is no exact definition on when a fetus is considered human. Now I personally believe that if it's capable of being a viable birth, or in other words, the baby is fully functional (no bodily or other damage to the brain, etc.) that is should be considered human. At this point in time, the baby is mostly/if not entirely developed and therefore can be considered a homo-sapien.

*Thoughts?

Edited July 10, 2010 by Zerep

[Izzy]

^ I agree entirely. You said what I was trying to say with a lot more clarity.

[Guest]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but.. what are the thought's on continuing America's love for oil? I think she's turned out to be a bit.. I don't know, if not just a tad, but a bit harmful? I'm all for a greener america

[Guest]

^ I agree entirely. You said what I was trying to say with a lot more clarity.

The magic of google

[Izzy]

I think we should do everything in our power to turn into a solar powered and much greener world. I saw on the news yesterday a plane that flew for 26 hours powered solely on solar power (the only complaints, the pilots iPod died ). It landed with more power than when it took off. Granted, it only went 26 mph, but this is faster than the Wright brother's first plane, and it went much furhter (all the way around the world). There is *definitely* major potential in such a investment. If it can power planes, why not simpler things like automobiles?

I'm also for public transport. The north has an incredible system of interconnected trains and entire cities are easily accesible (Boston being a prime example). Here in Florida, we don't have that. If you want to go someone and you don't have a car, you're stuck. I think we should make green public transportation a goal.

[Guest]

Maglev trains? They're powered by the force of magnetism and travel at incredible speeds.

[Izzy]

Wasn't there a proposition to build those here, and then construction started and the plan was shut down due to budgeting and general opposition? =/

(Also, accidentally closed FB. Back now.)

[Izzy]

..I just heard some inspirational lyrics that.. we should... definitely heed, for better or for worse haha. Caution: Cursing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro3Io3YN4Mo

Lyrics:

I walk the line, the line I choose

I see the people in front of me

I climb the wall, the wall of news

I watch them show the tragedy

If you were me, could you defend

The given rights to all of men?

Let's f*ck the world with all its trend

They say it's all about to end

They say it's all about to end

They say, they say

There's a prison that's gone, but the fear lives on

I watch you walking on the dotted line

Maybe you don't see what's in front of me

Maybe you won't stand the test of time

For we live in sin, for we will win

I watch the president kiss his family

For we live in sin, for we will win

I watch the president f*ck society

If you were me, could you defend

The given rights to all of men?

Let's f*ck the world with all its trend

They say it's all about to end

They say it's all about to end

They say, they say

I fall in love with the old times

I've never mentioned my own mind

Let's f*ck the world with all its trend

Thank god it's all about to end

They say it's all about to end

They say, they say

They say, they say

They say it's all about to end

[gvg]

I agree with making greener technology. It makes no sense to give the middle east, our apparent worst enemies, money for there oil. They basically control us now; we are dependent on their prices. And we're NOT drilling in Alaska or other places like that, so green energy development is a plus. My favorite to power homes is geothermal, but there's many more. =)

And I'm glad we can agree: no late term abortions.

And about the taxing: Think about this: Those 100 dollars matter more to the man making 1,000 a year than that million does to the man with 10,000,000 a year. That's my reasoning. Also, I don't think that people that fall within 130% of the poverty line (eligible for Medicaid) should pay anything. It wouldn't help them get out of poverty, but deeper into it. Also, the government cannot take money out of your bank account. That's NOT cool.

Edited July 10, 2010 by gvg

[Izzy]

Isn't that why savings accounts give you money back, but with interest. (This was explained to me when I was like seven, lol, bear with me.) They borrow some, and when you get it back, it's a little more? ..Or maybe it's just an incentive to use a certain bank, idk.

Sorry I don't undertsand statisitics over 130%, unless we're talking about an increase in something. I agree that the super poor (including the unlucky kid bagging my groceries at Publix) shouldn't pay anything. Isn't that what tax refunds are for?

[gvg]

What I mean by money being taken: I was watching The Pursuit of Happiness (GREAT movie btw). In it, he kept waiting to pay his taxes because he was very poor. Then one day, without warning, instead of helping him, the government took his money and he was broke. I don't want something like that to happen. And they do NOT give it back; that's the banks.

[Izzy]

I understand we each have our own opinions on the matter, but I doubt any of us our doctors

Well, actually, I've been chilling in the Bahamas a widower for some time, so you can consider me Professor Doctor Sir Maw Mivvelton Martin K. Rombridge Beeblebrox, Esquire, Honorary Vice President of Mgubalkwala. ..But that's a philosophical degree, I'm not MD, but your point is a valid one. (Sorry, you probably won't get that joke Eli. )

[Quag]

although it seems interesting at first solar power is extremly limited. if the entire USA was covered with solar panels and there was never any cloud cover the energy provided would not even come close to covering the needs of the country. However scientists are proposing solar satellites. heard on radio the other day, 100km in diamater to collect then send through microwaves back to receptors on earth (10km across)each satellite/receptor could produce 5MW energy, now were talking about some usefullness. the tech already exist it is the scale. ie. an engineering solution not a science one that is the problem. BTW wind power has same limitations as solar panels here on earth, there is no way we could get enough energy for our needs. ATM only nuclear power can do so, doesnt mean wind/solar cant help but they are not a feasible alternative.

[Izzy]

Nuclear power is another good one, imo, but I don't think solar is as limited as you might suggest. If it can power a plane, things like televisions and computers shouldn't be a problem.

....This is probably a stupid question.. but.. if we use the energy for other things, will it not be as hot. >_> (If so, a potential global warming solution, lmao.)

Edited July 11, 2010 by Izzy