[peace*out]

To not get "off topic" in the other thread...

...Drugs can actually be very beneficial. Lemme know if you want to discuss it haha.

For starters: I know they can relive you from pain, but i'm not trying to talk about advil. I'm talking meth, crack, you - the stuff.

I have a friend who use to do drugs, and even he says not to.

hmmmmm...so anyways, here's a new topic that may be widely argued...

[Izzy]

Hmm. Can we stick to this thread merely being the pros/cons of various narcotics, not whether they should be legalized? (Uhh, for legal purposes, all things described below are limited to someone I know, not me.)

I'm probably going to talk more about positive emotional benefits than health benefits, haha. I assure you this stuff is hardly worse than a few meals at MaccyD's.

Ima start with meth, because amphetamines are what I've been most interested in lately. >_> I've actually accidentally done meth twice, and I didn't experience any of the teeth falling/face destroying symptoms demonizers usually go on about. Then again, I probably didn't do enough. However, regular amphetamine, is just lamping (f**king) amazing. This, under the brand name Adderall, is actually prescribe to kids under five to help deal with their ADHD. But when someone who doesn't have ADHD takes it, you just get completely wired. You'll literally be able to stay up for hours and crash for an exam, or write an essay, or whatever. There's also ways to split it up. Like, if you have to write an essay, snort 5 mg, and for two hours it's like you and that essay are the only things that exist. Or, if you need to learn a few hours' worth of material in a night, take like 30 mg oral, and you're good. The best I've ever heard it described is caffeine on caffeine. It's an *incredible* study aid. Someone who isn't me (from here on out will be referred to as SWIM) hasn't used it enough to experience any negative side effects. It's really just brilliant. Not physically addicting, though you'll probably enjoy it so much that you'll want to do it again periodically.

Then there's MDMA. Omfg. As long as you remember to stay hydrated, you're good bro. You'll feel happier than you've felt in your life. You'll be so lamping energized that you'll feel like you can do anything. Your serotonin receptors are going crazy. It's like you're at peace with the world and everything's awesome. I mean, go ahead and call it a delusion, but what's reality anyway? So long as *you're* happy, why does it matter where that happiness comes from? I can't even really describe that. You know when you like someone and you found out they like you back, and you get butterflies in your stomach, and it just feels like you can jump to the moon? It's that times 1000. MDMA in the past was actually used to treat people with depression. Also, you're one with the music. This can help artists really bond with the world, culturally and socially, feeling the waves of every trance. Seriously hypnotic. Sort of like with mushrooms/LSD and dissociative anapestics (Ketamine, DXM), you won't really know where you end and the world begins. Hallucinogens are seriously a good way to spend a few hours. You can have such a huge experience just in your closet. Blast some Aphex Twin, watch the ceiling pulse, and leave your world into the world of your mind, into a stream of self-discovery. Dance with aliens, swim on the moon, ride a dragon. It's just all so surreal. I know it isn't real, but its real for those few hours it's happening, and I swear I've never regretted any of it. It's really hard to explain. I've watched music, heard sounds, twisted inside out of myself. I've hung from the ceiling and divided by zero. Hallucinogens, especially dissociatives = <333.

Then there's opiates, which.. I'm still kinda undecided about. SWIM's experiences have been about half good half bad. It'll either go like this: "Wooah, mannn. I feel so.. numb...and indifferent.. nothing matters.. I'm so free... Meh.." but it's the best "meh" you've ever felt. ..Or, you'll throw up a lot. I also recognize their addictive properties, which.. can be a little intimidating.

Pot I just don't like. I'm sure people will call me on this, haha, but it just isn't for me.

That about wraps it up. Could do with elaboration, but I've typed so much today.

Btw, I'm not encouraging drug use in minors. I just think people should have the freedom to their body, and drugs are a nice way to pass some time, so long as you aren't abusing. If you want any advice, hit up Erowid.org or send me a PM. Drugs CAN be dangerous, but DARE has demonized them way too much I sorta feel like not everyone knows what they're really about.

Oh, so to summarize, benefits: You'll feel amazing. And htat's all that matters.

[unreality]

Yeah we all know about the terrible stuff, the crack cocaine and methamphetamine and heroin (and other abusable strong opiates), but people have way too many misconceptions about other, safer drugs. For example, most people think ecstasy (MDMA) is a "hard drug", when really it's not (the main downside is getting worse chemicals and amphetamines cut in with the pills, a danger that would be go away if it were legalized). People also associate gangs with drugs, which is true, but the majority of gang income and violence is related to the illegal drug trade, a problem that would be solved immensely by legalizing most substances.

Moving away from chemicals for a second and focusing on just plants, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that any government could be as impudent to say any living plant is "illegal". Obviously thinking about marijuana here, but many other plants as well. Have you heard of the church UDV that had to struggle just to be given the religious freedom to practice spiritual rites with psychedelic tea? Have you heard of the millions and billions of dollars governments have spent on fighting mostly harmless drugs? What about kids that die from inhaling dangerous household products because there are no other options? What about millions of square acres of environment DESTROYED by governments in South America spraying chemicals to prevent coca plant growth?

Regardless of what you think of other drugs, alcohol and tobacco are two of the most dangerous substances in existence. They have killed more people than almost anything else and especially any other legal or illegal drug. So legality is clearly not a result of "it's for your own safety". and if you don't think alcoholism is real I have stories for you. A grand total of ZERO people have died from marijuana usage. LSD and other psychedelics are almost impossible to overdose on, the worst is a bad trip.

Marijuana has a long list of health benefits I can rattle off if you wish, as well as other things (it's good for the environment, relatively easy to grow, can be made into all kinds of paper products, medicines, etc, and reduce use of deadly and carcinogenic plastics, etc)... but someone inevitably already has, here check out TotoroSanjay's post here: http://askville.amazon.com/marijuana-considered-drug-opinion/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=701268

In short, I stay away from amphetamines, cocaine and other stimulants (I even feel bad drinking caffeine but I've had to a few times, my abstinence from it though means that I never build up a tolerance to caffeine). Alcohol is a bad-good thing. It and marijuana are so ingrained in our society that it's hard to judge... but I think that cigarettes should be illegal, they should sell the natural tobacco & cannabis plants and people can make their own. As far as opiates go, I'm glad they're illegal but I think codeine should be sold OTC. Beyond that they're just far too addicting. I do think that all hallucinogenics and psychedelics including dissociatives should be legal. I also think all plants (yes, including the opium poppy and the coca leaf) should be legal.

Well there's my opinion/philosophy/experience on the matter

[Izzy]

In short, I stay away from amphetamines, cocaine and other stimulants (I even feel bad drinking caffeine but I've had to a few times, my abstinence from it though means that I never build up a tolerance to caffeine).

I'm going to agree with most of what you said, but disagree with amphetamines. I LOVE caffeine, and I've never had the urge to do cocaine, so can't argue there, but amphetamines are no where near as bad they're made out to be.

Let's go over the health effects, which can be found here.

Lemme copy and paste the common ones.

1. Cardiovascular Stress: Increased heart rate and blood pressure. Tachycardia (fast heart) and palpitations are common at high doses.

Frequency: very common.

Certainty: clear causation.

*shrug* Same with DXM. Since it's a temporary increase, I don't consider it a problem. If you know you're at risk of heart attacks/stroke, avoid the drug.

2.Overheating: High doses can cause overheating (hyperthermia) which can be dangerous in certain environments or for vulnerable people.

Frequency: common.

Certainty: clear causation.

Remember to stay hydrated and in a cool environment. This shouldn't be a problem when used as a study aid. Part recreational use of amphetamines has never really appealed to me. That's what MDMA is for, and is arguably its only downside. Just know when you've had to much.

3.Poor Sleep Quality: Mild sleep disruptions are very common and include difficulty falling asleep and poor sleep quality.

Frequency: typical.

Certainty: clear causation.

I'm totally cool with this. No different from caffeine, and if your intention is to stay awake, that's pretty much what's happening.

4. Bad Driving: Lack of sleep can lead to impaired judgement and poor driving.

Frequency: common with sleep deprivation.

Certainty: link established.

I'm going to assume we all know not to drive under the influence/after not sleeping for a very long time. This is actually given to members of the military (especially fighter pilots) to make them more aware of their surroundings and more attentive.

5.Damage to Teeth and Gums : Jaw tension can lead to teeth grinding (bruxia/bruxism) and permanent wear and cracking. Long-term use of amphetamines can result in tooth rot (dental caries) and loss of teeth. [shaner 2002] Regular amphetamine use can lead to gingivitis (inflammation of the gums). This may be the result of prolonged dry mouth which can cause the gums to become inflamed, worsening oral health. [Hasan 2004].

Frequency: common.

Certainty: link established.

Definitely the worst one on the list. I don't really know how to avoid it (wear a retainer?) but try to avoid chronic use, and always brush your teeth/floss. I'm actually convinced it's controllable, but.. *shrug* have a good dentist!

6. Dry Mucus Membranes: Dried mucus membranes can lead to bloody noses, painful sinus dryness, and increased likelihood of sinus infections.

Frequency: common.

Certainty: link established.

This is actually also a benefit because it reduces allergy and cold symptoms.

..Not really that bad. Worth the benefits.

[unreality]

I'm going to agree with most of what you said, but disagree with amphetamines. I LOVE caffeine, and I've never had the urge to do cocaine, so can't argue there, but amphetamines are no where near as bad they're made out to be.

Let's go over the health effects, which can be found here.

Lemme copy and paste the common ones.

1. Cardiovascular Stress: Increased heart rate and blood pressure. Tachycardia (fast heart) and palpitations are common at high doses.

Frequency: very common.

Certainty: clear causation.

*shrug* Same with DXM. Since it's a temporary increase, I don't consider it a problem. If you know you're at risk of heart attacks/stroke, avoid the drug.

I don't think that's a recognized effect of DXM haha. But I agree that's not in general a problem but is for daily users of caffeine (or amphetamines)

2.Overheating: High doses can cause overheating (hyperthermia) which can be dangerous in certain environments or for vulnerable people.

Frequency: common.

Certainty: clear causation.

Remember to stay hydrated and in a cool environment. This shouldn't be a problem when used as a study aid. Part recreational use of amphetamines has never really appealed to me. That's what MDMA is for, and is arguably its only downside. Just know when you've had to much.

agreed

3.Poor Sleep Quality: Mild sleep disruptions are very common and include difficulty falling asleep and poor sleep quality.

Frequency: typical.

Certainty: clear causation.

I'm totally cool with this. No different from caffeine, and if your intention is to stay awake, that's pretty much what's happening.

indeed but I hate messing with the biological sleep schedule, one of the main reasons I don't really like stimulants nor depressants haha. But it can't really be avoided with something like this, especially if you're trying to do that. But have you heard of Provigil? It can keep people alert for a long time without some of the other negative effects of caffeine/amphs

4. Bad Driving: Lack of sleep can lead to impaired judgement and poor driving.

Frequency: common with sleep deprivation.

Certainty: link established.

I'm going to assume we all know not to drive under the influence/after not sleeping for a very long time. This is actually given to members of the military (especially fighter pilots) to make them more aware of their surroundings and more attentive.

5.Damage to Teeth and Gums : Jaw tension can lead to teeth grinding (bruxia/bruxism) and permanent wear and cracking. Long-term use of amphetamines can result in tooth rot (dental caries) and loss of teeth. [shaner 2002] Regular amphetamine use can lead to gingivitis (inflammation of the gums). This may be the result of prolonged dry mouth which can cause the gums to become inflamed, worsening oral health. [Hasan 2004].

Frequency: common.

Certainty: link established.

Definitely the worst one on the list. I don't really know how to avoid it (wear a retainer?) but try to avoid chronic use, and always brush your teeth/floss. I'm actually convinced it's controllable, but.. *shrug* have a good dentist!

6. Dry Mucus Membranes: Dried mucus membranes can lead to bloody noses, painful sinus dryness, and increased likelihood of sinus infections.

Frequency: common.

Certainty: link established.

This is actually also a benefit because it reduces allergy and cold symptoms.

..Not really that bad. Worth the benefits.

the losing-your-teeth thing does it in for me, sorry

[Izzy]

I don't think that's a recognized effect of DXM haha. But I agree that's not in general a problem but is for daily users of caffeine (or amphetamines)

Not for everyone, but it has been noted: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/dxm_general_info.shtml .

indeed but I hate messing with the biological sleep schedule, one of the main reasons I don't really like stimulants nor depressants haha. But it can't really be avoided with something like this, especially if you're trying to do that. But have you heard of Provigil? It can keep people alert for a long time without some of the other negative effects of caffeine/amphs

Hah, I sometimes find sleep either unnecessary or inconvenient. If it can occasionally be bypassed when necessary, mehs why not. ;P

I've never heard of Provigil.

the losing-your-teeth thing does it in for me, sorry

Yeah, I agree with that. That's why I'm going to enjoy extreme moderation.

[peace*out]

I also think all plants (yes, including the opium poppy and the coca leaf) should be legal.

quite funny how i did a whole slideshow on opium for health...lemme go dig it up...

ok: so the slide show's not there anymore, but i still have some info on it. the basic stuff on it is that you can get withdrawl if you withdrawl. you start depending on it.

but the thing i think is most...dangerous is if someone is driving, or being in public with it. It would make the death rate go up because of car crashes, then many people would want it illegal again.

SHORT TERM EFFECTS:

~euphoria (happiness and content) followed by a sense of well being and calm drowsiness or sedation

~breathing slows - potentially to uncontioustess (though rare, death with large doses), slowed heartbeat

~nausea, confusion, constipation, itchiness

~when used with alcohol: antihistamines, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, or general anesthetics increases the risk of life threatening respiratory depression

~relief of pain, diarrhea, and coughing

~Feeling warmth, security and well-being

~uncoordinated movement & dizziness

LONG TERMMM:

~drug tolerance (you need more of the drug to get similar effects)

~physical dependance and addiction

~withdrawal if long term is reduced or stopped

you can also die...i understand that some people wouldn't abuse it, but the people who would are going to ruin it for everyone.

[peace*out]

Hah, I sometimes find sleep either unnecessary or inconvenient.

why am i suddenly taken back the that faux letter that you wrote for me about not needing sleep...

ahhh well...

izzy: the losing - your - teeth thing isn't really good at ALL!!!!

just sayin!

[Izzy]

^ Omg. Itchiness. <3

Abuse is with everything though. That in and of itself shouldn't be reason enough to criminalize a drug. People are going to get it anyway, and at east if it's regulated by people that aren't drug dealers, quality is insured, and some of the risks associated with, say MDMA, significantly decreases.

I'm definitely going to say the benefits of moderate opiate use definitely outweigh the negatives, as long as you control yourself. As a rule of thumb, I avoid heroin, haha. Morphine tops, though more comfortable with oxy/hydro.

[Izzy]

why am i suddenly taken back the that faux letter that you wrote for me about not needing sleep...

ahhh well...

izzy: the losing - your - teeth thing isn't really good at ALL!!!!

just sayin!

Haha, what letter? You'll find my opinions change occasionally. >_>

Yeeah, I know. I still have all my teeth, with no cavities or gum diseases, and they're pretty white. If that counts for anything.

[peace*out]

^ Omg. Itchiness. <3

you LIKE itchiness..?

Abuse is with everything though. That in and of itself shouldn't be reason enough to criminalize a drug. People are going to get it anyway, and at east if it's regulated by people that aren't drug dealers, quality is insured, and some of the risks associated with, say MDMA, significantly decreases.

it's not the abuse, i think. It's what will happen when those under the influence interact in public. I get your point in terms of the quality. But people will get addicted, and USA will be even more in debt (if that's possible).

I'm definitely going to say the benefits of moderate opiate use definitely outweigh the negatives, as long as you control yourself. As a rule of thumb, I avoid heroin, haha. Morphine tops, though more comfortable with oxy/hydro.

yes. MODERATE. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't over abuse it, but other people out there...im not so sure.

did you know that some of the stuff in opium is used to make heroin?

Opium is a substance used medicianlly and recreationally, which is illegal in most countries. When used medicinally, three things are extracted: morphine (used to make heroin), codeine, and thobaine. Thobaine is a very powerful painkiller. Opium can be smoked (the safest way), dissolved into tea, or eaten.

[peace*out]

Haha, what letter? You'll find my opinions change occasionally. >_>

Yeeah, I know. I still have all my teeth, with no cavities or gum diseases, and they're pretty white. If that counts for anything.

AGAIN:

that's YOU!!! not others. If everyone knew that the drug would be used in small amounts and appropriatly, then that would be fine. but it's NOT!!

and i shall find that letter for you...

[Izzy]

you LIKE itchiness..?

I know that sounds weird, but it grows on you. You begin to crave it and associate every itch, from bug bites to hair brushing across your face with opiate use. It's like a little pseudohigh, and it's.. awesome. >_>

it's not the abuse, i think. It's what will happen when those under the influence interact in public. I get your point in terms of the quality. But people will get addicted, and USA will be even more in debt (if that's possible).

Oh, I totally agree. I don't even think people should be allowed to smoke in public because of the negative effects is has on everyone else. I think there should be a time and a place. In your own home, surely. Maybe at concert venues and such.

yes. MODERATE. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't over abuse it, but other people out there...im not so sure.

did you know that some of the stuff in opium is used to make heroin?

Opium is a substance used medicianlly and recreationally, which is illegal in most countries. When used medicinally, three things are extracted: morphine (used to make heroin), codeine, and thobaine. Thobaine is a very powerful painkiller. Opium can be smoked (the safest way), dissolved into tea, or eaten.

I think if people were properly educated properly about drugs, and not just all attacked with an "THEY'RE ALL BAD", problems would, to some degree, be taken care of. Abuse can be a problem with so many things, but there are proper rehabilitation programs/medicines to help get people off of drugs.

Yeah, I've been aware of that. Heated up morphine = heroine.

Codeine is pretty harmless and awesome, if you can stomach it. I think I've mentioned it before, but SWIM throws up about half the time. Don't chew oxy/hydro pills, btw. It rapes your stomach, even if you do get a larger surface are digestion ratio.

[Izzy]

If everyone knew that the drug would be used in small amounts and appropriatly, then that would be fine. but it's NOT!!

See, drugs don't destroy lives. People destroy lives. It's all about education. Erowid.org = omniscience.

[peace*out]

Oh, I totally agree. I don't even think people should be allowed to smoke in public because of the negative effects is has on everyone else. I think there should be a time and a place. In your own home, surely. Maybe at concert venues and such.

abuse abuse abuse abuse. they should but they WONT. If the drugs make you go loopy, they might "forget", or acually forget.

I think if people were properly educated properly about drugs, and not just all attacked with an "THEY'RE ALL BAD", problems would, to some degree, be taken care of. Abuse can be a problem with so many things, but there are proper rehabilitation programs/medicines to help get people off of drugs.

true...but how many people will acually LISTEN?

Yeah, I've been aware of that. Heated up morphine = heroine.

yeah...

Codeine is pretty harmless and awesome, if you can stomach it. I think I've mentioned it before, but SWIM throws up about half the time. Don't chew oxy/hydro pills, btw. It rapes your stomach, even if you do get a larger surface are digestion ratio.

good to know...

[peace*out]

See, drugs don't destroy lives. People destroy lives. It's all about education. Erowid.org = omniscience.

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

some wont listen. if they did, then great! but other's wont.

and for the record, you're right about the pounding it into your skull: drugs are bad thing. they have a program with some guy named carl (apparently he's awesome, i wouldn't know) who used to be hooked. he's giving out the message too.

I think that for the most part, drugs aren't good if you're hooked. and bad things can happen with them. if they were used responsibly and carefully...

where did "SWIM" get all those anyways...??? aren't they under the counter or something?

[Izzy]

abuse abuse abuse abuse. they should but they WONT. If the drugs make you go loopy, they might "forget", or acually forget.

Then have consequences, such as the ones for drinking and driving.

true...but how many people will acually LISTEN?

I kind of get the feeling that when people realize it's in their best interest, they'll listen.

[Izzy]

abuse abuse abuse abuse. they should but they WONT. If the drugs make you go loopy, they might "forget", or acually forget.

Then have consequences, such as the ones for drinking and driving.

true...but how many people will acually LISTEN?

I kind of get the feeling that when people realize it's in their best interest, they'll listen.

[peace*out]

Then have consequences, such as the ones for drinking and driving.

...and notice how often those ones get broken...

I kind of get the feeling that when people realize it's in their best interest, they'll listen.

then you should go to my school, and think about THAT again...

[Izzy]

I think that for the most part, drugs aren't good if you're hooked. and bad things can happen with them. if they were used responsibly and carefully...

where did "SWIM" get all those anyways...??? aren't they under the counter or something?

Yeah... I wouldn't know. ;P

SWIM knows people, I assume. DXM is actually legal, and mushrooms are legal in SWIM's state. ;D Codeine/other opiates and amphetamines can be prescribed. Other things are harder. It depends on where you're at.

[Izzy]

...and notice how often those ones get broken...

then you should go to my school, and think about THAT again...

Haha yeah. Adults and teenagers alike are STUPID. Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to use drugs. They need their brain cells. A bit o personal philosophy.

[unreality]

peace*out, when I said that the opium poppy and coca leaf plants should be legal, I was assuming that you did know that they could be made to make some of the most addictive drugs in existence (opium, morphine, heroin, cocaine/crack), drugs I would never ever try, my point was that even in that case, I think the plant itself should be legal. All plants should be legal. The actual chemicals of heroin, opium, morphine, thobaine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, fentanyl (and a bazillion more opiates, etc) should remain controlled by hospitals and pharmacies, because they are dangerous, with the exception of codeine maybe (but even that should be regulated to some extent I think).

But the actual origin plant itself which can be used (if you know your stuff and are good at chemistry) for good or for bad, should be legal IMO.

[unreality]

but for me, the only legality statuses that really NEED to change are those for cannabis/marijuana/hashish and for most psychedelics/hallucinogens. I think the laws for most other substances are adequate

[Izzy]

^I agree with you to some extent. Other peoples' abuse of "hard drugs" does freak me out a bit, but I don't think we should go so far as to make them (er, keep them) illegal. Think back to the alcohol prohibition. If the plant is around and people want the chems, they'll still make their own. Might as well get the good quality by knowing it's from a legit source.

DMT for example. That stuff can *really* mess some people up, but it's secreted in the pancreas and can be made from plants (mimbusa habillis or something, don't feel like looking in the Guide right now).

Maybe hospitals should give you the chems a few times every year for recreational use to prevent abuse? SWIM limits themselves anyway, but other people don't. This might help in that region.

[Izzy]

but for me, the only legality statuses that really NEED to change are those for cannabis/marijuana/hashish and for most psychedelics/hallucinogens. I think the laws for most other substances are adequate

MDMA, MDA, etc. Though, doesn't that come down to preference, though? An experience from opiates could be just as bad, health wise, as a bad trip from ketamine. PCP is a hallucinogen, but is just absolute shite. ..Yeah, the difference is the physical addiction, but hallucinogens can offer a psychological addiction. I know that sounds a bit.. strange, because after some it's like "Wow, that was awesome, but I really don't want to do that again soon", but.. yeah. Idk how to explain it. At least give people their codeine, maybe occasional hydro/oxy/morphine. I meh at heroin.

Poppy seeds in tea? Wonder what that's like.

[peace*out]

ll plants should be legal. The actual chemicals of heroin, opium, morphine, thobaine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, fentanyl (and a bazillion more opiates, etc) should remain controlled by hospitals and pharmacies, because they are dangerous, with the exception of codeine maybe (but even that should be regulated to some extent I think).

and how's that going to work?? you're saying that people can grow them, but they wont harvest them?

really?