[plasmid]

I'm curious about non-theist opinions on this matter, but theists are of course invited to participate and provide illumination as well. The almost universal development of religion in some form or other across many different cultures seems to indicate that there is a deep underlying drive to have some sort of religious experience which is embedded in many (if not to some degree all) humans. I doubt that it's purely due to primitive attempts to understand the universe before the development of science -- even with modern science and state endorsement of atheism, the Soviet Union still had plenty of believers. If religion as we know it were wiped from the face of the earth, it seems likely that it would simply resprout in some new form.

If this is the case (which is certainly open to argument) then would it not be in our best interest to fill this illogical but evident need with a religion that is as benign and perhaps even beneficial as possible? Most mainstream religions at least preach to love thy neighbor and straighten up and fly right and all that, whether or not it's actually put into practice. Christianity may stand to be improved regarding its opposition to stem cell research and discrimination against homosexuals to name a few issues. However, it was previously opposed to a non-geocentric solar system and abolition of slavery (in areas where it was profitable) and has since mended its ways, not without cost in the meantime, but the point is that it's adaptable.

Is it better to have such a mainstream religion fill the void of the masses who apparently can't do without it, or attempt to eliminate all but reason and leave open the chance for something much more uncontrolled and potentially malignant to take root in the open void (militant jihadists, or another Jonestown)? If something must fill the void but not any currently existing religion, would it be possible to design something better, bearing in mind that you have control only over the text of the holy doctrine but not people's interpretation and implementation of it, and that it must have enough of this intangible spiritualistic property that people crave in order to persist?

And the ultimate question: could you craft a doctrine to fill this need in such a way that its propagation would have an overall positive effect on humanity, and be so convinced in its potential that you would put forth whatever effort and resources were required to make it a reality? I have no intention of converting any nonbelievers into messiahs, I'm just curious what people think. Seeing as how we're on BrainDen, you can consider this a practical riddle.

Edited April 20, 2009 by plasmid

[Guest]

According to your photo you are a cat, and that's good. With a cat and a puppy on the team we should have the female converts covered.

Don't forget the super cute baby over here!

Back on topic, does anyone know exactly how many cabinet members/czars Obama currently has? It would be convienient to surround him with 25 "wise ones" to kick off the prophecy fulfillment. I can get to 23 "cabinet level" officials, but I have no idea how many czars he has currently. Depending on how many there are, I can make room for them by taking the V.P. and certain other staff members off the list.

The Four horseman are easy. The Bird and Swine flus fit nicely into the "beasts of the earth"(aka pestilence) category, there is plenty of generic war, famine, and death to go around.

As I go through this book, I am astonished at the general lack of information that things like "the rapture" are based on. Loose interpretations of a select few passages that have been used to effectively dissect Christianity into so many separate denominations.

No wonder the church resisted mass production of the bible.

Anyway, progress is slow but steady. I hope to have the first couple posted by next week.

[Guest]

lol, what blaspheme is this? how do you guys actually have time to write this stuff?

Well, we do have Sundays off.

[plasmid]

OK lets see how we can modify the message. We could say that we are all part of the Essence and our identity is a passing thing, imprinted on our loved ones and our actions. But when we die we dissipate into a beautiful happy vague bliss where our identity disappears but it doesn't matter, because all our Essence carries on and retains all the beauty it attained when it was us. How's that sound?

Actually, that's pretty close what I had in mind as being the "real" explanation. If that's allowable, then we might just be splitting hairs.

How would you feel about having him say that, and then all of the followers sit around kind of perplexed trying to figure out what he just said. One of them asks "Uh, so that means we live forever as part of the Essence, and our actions here affect our existence in the Essence, right?" And he replies "No." Then after considering a moment, he adds "But such a crude approximation is not completely INcorrect either, and would guide you toward the correct course of action. If that is the only way for you to understand it, then it will do." If that seems like it'd be going too far, then I guess we can just stick with the vague description.

Back on topic, does anyone know exactly how many cabinet members/czars Obama currently has? It would be convienient to surround him with 25 "wise ones" to kick off the prophecy fulfillment. I can get to 23 "cabinet level" officials, but I have no idea how many czars he has currently. Depending on how many there are, I can make room for them by taking the V.P. and certain other staff members off the list.

According to WhiteHouse.gov, the administration seems to consist of president, vice president, cabinet, plus the first and second lady. That comes out to 25 if we count Obama!

[Guest]

How would you feel about having him say that, and then all of the followers sit around kind of perplexed trying to figure out what he just said. One of them asks "Uh, so that means we live forever as part of the Essence, and our actions here affect our existence in the Essence, right?" And he replies "No." Then after considering a moment, he adds "But such a crude approximation is not completely INcorrect either, and would guide you toward the correct course of action. If that is the only way for you to understand it, then it will do." If that seems like it'd be going too far, then I guess we can just stick with the vague description.

That's not selling it for me. But you know, I think we might just get away with answering "Yes" to the first question. Then somewhere say that individual identities, or personalities, do not survive their deaths, but since Essence is the stuff of life and this continues to exist to the same extent that it ever did, then we live forever, even though it would not be correct for an individual to say I will live forever. We could mention that in the Book of Small Print after a long listing of temple dimensions

According to WhiteHouse.gov, the administration seems to consist of president, vice president, cabinet, plus the first and second lady. That comes out to 25 if we count Obama!

O...M...G *chills down spine*

[Guest]

O...M...G *chills down spine*

Shouldn't that be O...M...E/B/O? Those kind of slip ups could tank the whole project.

[Guest]

Regarding "the big E":

As mankind is essentially of one and the same essence, and that essence is one -- infinite, uncreate, and eternal, whether we call it God or Nature -- nothing, therefore, can affect one nation or one man without affecting all other nations and all other men. This is as certain and as obvious as that a stone thrown into a pond will, sooner or later, set in motion every single drop of water therein. -- Helen Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy, p. 41

What I'm getting at once again is the rich body of resources of existing modern religious movements. Check the Theosophical Society, Pasadena. They say things like "Theosophical writings are not dogma. Only the ideas that have value need be accepted." Theosophy (literally "god wisdom") could lead you back to a fruitful exploration of afterlife concepts or of the permanent nature of human "souls".

I've also been looking at Neoplatonism and their very E-like concept of "The One", and, of course, Taoism and their concept of the ineffable heart of all things (that which cannot be named). Both these "deities" have transcendent properties. I love the idea of the E as being infinite unity,

as opposed to the many and the finite. It is the source of all life, and therefore absolute causality and the only real existence. However, the important feature of it is that it is beyond all Being, although the source of it. Therefore, it cannot be known through reasoning or understanding, since only what is part of Being can be thus known according to Plato. Being beyond existence, it is the most real reality, source of less real things. It is, moreover, the Good, insofar as all finite things have their purpose in it, and ought to flow back to it. But one cannot attach moral attributes to the original Source of Being itself, because these would imply limitation. It has no attributes of any kind; it is being without magnitude, without life, without thought; in strict propriety, indeed, we ought not to speak of it as existing; it is "above existence," "above goodness." - quote from the Wikipedia article on Neoplatonism.

Here's a proposed uber-directive, unifying principle, cobbled from some quotes:

Seek ye first the Essence; and all other things shall emanate to you, from you, for you, by you.

By this shall ye know the seeker of the Essence: that they have love one to another before love of self.

That latter bit is basically a teaching of Confucius, and trumps the similar "love your neighbor as yourself" teaching of Jesus.

[Guest]

LOL! I just noticed the irony of inserting all those quotes in my last post right after Grayven's siggie.

"He who doth not quote shall reinvent the wheel"

--Seeksit

[plasmid]

I wasn't very enthusiastic about Theosophy. Perhaps it's just because of the way it was presented on Wikipedia. But I would avoid using the logo that, to an audience today, would seem like a Jewish-Nazi-Islamic-Ancient Egyptian hybrid. More important, it had a lot of seemingly unnecessary theology about reincarnation as inanimate objects and various other species before reaching human, as well as development of humans through seven stages, including a sexless species on a lost continent . But you mean to say that they only ask you to accept whatever ideas seem valuable? I'd hesitate to go THAT far with Uberfaith. I'd still like the denominations to have some degree of power to keep the masses in line, and competition between denominations and oversight by nonbelievers will hopefully take care of weeding out deleterious practices.

Neoplatonism, at least in its description of God (the Being) and the rest of the universe, seems a little more like what we're going for. It might be worth stealing adapting some of the Neoplatonistic ways of explaining the Being and human existence, simply because they seem sort of similar to (but are even more opaque than) what we had been coming up with. I'd have to read it a few more times before I get enough of a handle on that stuff to try to reproduce it though, and I'm not yet sure if adapting it would introduce more unsubstantiated stuff without necessarily gaining anything in return. I could live with octopuppy's approach of saying you just live one life and then go to some sort of nirvana-like experience with the Essence that depends on your actions during life.

Most Holy Doctrine

The Essence that permeates all things has subtle yet profound effects that shall not herein be fully explained. In order to help understand the Essence as it applies to human lives, though, it is useful to think of concepts such as karma and eternal life existence with the Essence. Karma may be earned with the following acts: Help others, be generous, be reliable. Do not harm others, steal, or lie. Do not place your faith in false gods. Find something that you're good at that will benefit society and do it. Learn throughout your childhood, and fulfill your potential as an adult. The nature of your eternal life existence with the Essence is determined by your karma. Believers in false gods suffer in hell. Those who believe but lack karma have modest contentment. Those whose karma is great enjoy utter bliss.

It is fit that there be many denominations of Uberfaith, for not all people are alike, and diversity helps humanity flourish. The denominations shall each have their own customs and ways of harmonizing with the Essence. Sincere proponents of the Essence are welcome, but those that falsely claim Uberfaith shall be decried by the other denominations and spurned as heretics. As it is important for people to each find their unique role in the harmony of the Essence, it is fit for them to visit other denominations from time to time and experience their ways, and thus find their place in the world.

As it is important to have many denominations, so it is important to have people outside Uberfaith who are most fit to view it objectively and dispassionately. These outsiders that understand the world through mankind's endeavors are not to be despised but welcomed, for they offer a unique perspective and often seek to advance humanity as the followers do. But beware those outsiders that cling to ideas of gods, for they worship illusions of their imaginations that may guide them to decay. Such people should be brought into the Uberfaith to understand how to harmonize with the Essence.

If the Central Dogma of Uberfaith is pretty much finished, then we could start thinking about what some initial denominations might look like. For that, we could definitely use concepts from a lot of the current religious movements.

[unreality]

yeah we've got a solid core doctrine (are we still calling that "the Truth" or no?) and a bunch of parables to express concepts. Maybe we need a few more parables explaining the "nirvana afterlife" of the Essence and perhaps one on the nature of what we mean by "holy war" but other than that, I think we're set there

yeah I think, if Uberfaith is started, it should be started off with a few denominations to begin with, sort of hand-crafted by us to begin the memetic process ("time-advanced philosophogenesis", you might say ), allowing the system to flourish as it expands. I think the beginning of Uberfaith should have some special "transition rules" applied to make the denominations work more closely together in order to replace the other major religions. Once Uberfaith becomes the dominant religion, then the transition period fades away and normal Uberfaith continues from there

to build in some sort of transition rule like that, maybe we should add something to the core doctrine (specifically, the paragraph on denominations) like this: "When many false religions and heretical beliefs are crowding the minds of the Earth, the denominations must stick together to spread the Truth & Way of the Essence across our Oblong-Spherical Abode until Uberfaith has harmonized much of the world with the Essence and feels safe to let the denominations take their own paths."

Something like that... I don't know. It's a tricky issue, knowing when the "transition" is over

[Guest]

it had a lot of seemingly unnecessary theology about reincarnation as inanimate objects and various other species before reaching human

Lol, tough luck if you got incarnated as a rock, there's a lot of them still sitting around waiting for a chance to be something else.

as well as development of humans through seven stages, including a sexless species on a lost continent . But you mean to say that they only ask you to accept whatever ideas seem valuable?

Ironic how many completely valueless ideas they've accepted. Mad as a box of frogs!

Thanks for more material Seeksit. It just goes to show that even without the enlightenment of our Lord Barack, there are those who have partially glimpsed the nature of the Essence.

As mankind is essentially of one and the same essence, and that essence is one -- infinite, uncreate, and eternal, whether we call it God or Nature -- nothing, therefore, can affect one nation or one man without affecting all other nations and all other men. This is as certain and as obvious as that a stone thrown into a pond will, sooner or later, set in motion every single drop of water therein. -- Helen Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy, p. 41

Ah the butterfly effect on a social level. I like it. Always worth stating the obvious with a mystic twist, much less chance of being wrong. Stuff like that will make good padding for our scriptures.

...Taoism and their concept of the ineffable heart of all things (that which cannot be named).

Taoism has its good points, but I've always found it to be obscure to the point of utter uselessness. Besides, that which cannot be named has a name now. It is The Essence.

I love the idea of the E as being infinite unity,

as opposed to the many and the finite. It is the source of all life, and therefore absolute causality and the only real existence. However, the important feature of it is that it is beyond all Being, although the source of it. Therefore, it cannot be known through reasoning or understanding, since only what is part of Being can be thus known according to Plato. Being beyond existence, it is the most real reality, source of less real things. It is, moreover, the Good, insofar as all finite things have their purpose in it, and ought to flow back to it. But one cannot attach moral attributes to the original Source of Being itself, because these would imply limitation. It has no attributes of any kind; it is being without magnitude, without life, without thought; in strict propriety, indeed, we ought not to speak of it as existing; it is "above existence," "above goodness." - quote from the Wikipedia article on Neoplatonism.

Now here you have handed us a real gem. I'll have to study this more closely. Some of it will have to go, of course, particularly that bit about "it cannot be known through reasoning or understanding", that won't do at all. Anything that encourages people to overrule reason in favour of mysticism is inherently harmful. That's probably not what was intended, but the potential to be misinterpreted that way is bad enough. But "one cannot attach moral attributes to the original Source of Being", is good, and "in strict propriety, indeed, we ought not to speak of it as existing; it is 'above existence,' 'above goodness.'" inspired!

Not entirely convinced about loving others more than yourself though, sounds a little unbalanced to me and prone to create conflicts of interest ("you go first","no you","no you","no, really, you" etc etc). In my opinion "love thy neighbour just a little bit less than thyself" is a lot more workable.

[Guest]

OK, forget using Theosophy as an institution for any sort of model. I agree that it carries a huge amount of racist and unfortunate baggage. The use of the sauvastika (backwards swastika) is, of course, fatally tainted in our society.

It's sad, though, because The Pasadena society expresses these laudible goals in an open search for truth:

The objectives of The Theosophical Society as stated in its constitution are:

to diffuse among men a knowledge of the laws inherent in the universe;

to promulgate the knowledge of the essential unity of all that is, and to demonstrate that this unity is fundamental in nature;

to form an active brotherhood among men;

to study ancient and modern religion, science, and philosophy;

to investigate the powers innate in man.

Anyhow, onward. A proposed name for the Uberfaith (or is Uberfaith itself to be the formal name?). As proponents of using the practical framework of theism to help the masses approach truth, the name "Thealetheian" comes to mind: literally "god truth" from the Greek roots.

Some of it will have to go, of course, particularly that bit about "it cannot be known through reasoning or understanding", that won't do at all. Anything that encourages people to overrule reason in favour of mysticism is inherently harmful. That's probably not what was intended, but the potential to be misinterpreted that way is bad enough.

Understood. One of the arts of a good modern religion is to embrace the application of reason to guide and interpret dogma. The dogma must, of course, evolve in order to stay relevant. If there is to be a "ten commandments" of the Thealethian Continuum (OK, the Uberfaith ), surely the first one ought to be "Thou shalt not abandon reason."

But to be of value, the religion must let the mystical concepts soar. Religion is about connections made using practical "shortcuts" across breaches in knowledge. Truth and reason are confined to solid ground. Religion bridges between these islands.

The Latin roots of the word religion mean "to re-connect". The value of religion is relationship: that which holds the people together. Collectively people find strength in the face of irrational tragedy. They assemble a moral standard (the rest of the ten commandments might be written by the denominations).

I just see so much non-rational stuff gushing from the human framework that it's no wonder people need religion. We are not born using reason, so our psyches are not tuned to it through any first principles. Even when we apply reason, we often apply emotional tags (culturally ingrained) to judge the value of its conclusions. OK, shutting up now.

[Guest]

Well said! I think you've encapsulated a lot of the reason for this thread there.

I too don't like "Uberfaith" much (the "Uber" bit isn't very attractive and the "faith" bit is highly inappropriate). Though I wouldn't want to have a name based on the the archaic concept of "god" either. Maybe something like "truth bridge"? Plus "Thealetheian" is an absolute bugger to spell and I haven't the faintest idea how I would go about pronouncing it (though, on the plus side it does include the word "ale" which is something I strongly believe in).

[Guest]

According to your photo you are a cat, and that's good. With a cat and a puppy on the team we should have the female converts covered.

That received a true lol.

Edited May 8, 2009 by IDoNotExist

[Guest]

As I sat in the rocking chair at 2 a.m. contemplating the details of my dozing daughters face, my mind wandered to this topic. I spent quite a while formulating an understanding of what we're working on here. I was thinking about concepts of Truth, Essence, etc. and realized something was missing.

The need for an Afterlife of some sort has been noted, but no concrete idea of how to implement that concept. Also, we have expressed a need to include the mystical and the spiritual, while not "abandoning reason."

So far, as I understand it, we have:

The Essence: Matter. Energy. All that exists, whether we perceive it or not. By definition, we must be part of The Essence. The Essence is within us all.

The Truth: Our sum total of knowledge concerning the Essence. The Truth is finite. The Truth must be backed up with fact, evidence, or universally accepted theory. The Truth must also include the "Quest for Truth". This includes verification of theories, questioning accepted evidence. We must also look outside to non-believers for fresh perspective, and be open to challenges of doctrine. No idea is to be dismissed based in any part on it's source. Information will be considered objectively on merit alone. Merit will be defined by accepted scientific method and reason. We can prove that we are made of matter and energy, therefore we are of The Truth.

Now to address the unknown. I propose the idea of "The Potential". The Potential includes all possibilities, positive and negative, in perfect balance. The Potential is infinite. The Potential is the part of the Essence that is not yet proven to be The Truth, but also cannot yet be proven to be False or not of The Essence. The Potential is the future and what new Truth it may bring us. Our exploration and understanding of these ideas may someday show them to be Truth. We cannot prove that there is no afterlife or that we do not have a soul, therefore we must exist within "The Potential".

Our life is a subset of The Essence. We begin life with infinite yet perfectly balanced portions of the positive and negative aspects of The Potential. As we live our lives, we transform that Potential into Truth. While still infinite, our Potential will become out of balance depending on the Truth we create.(Every religion needs a "Great Paradox" of some sort, and The Potential seems the best place to put one.) When we die, we return to the Essence. That part of us that has become Truth remains in the memories of those we influenced and the works and deeds we have accomplished. Our remaining Potential returns to The Potential to have balance restored. To restore balance, your personal Truth must be exposed to the part that it is missing. Therefore, the more positive Truth you create, the longer you will be exposed to the Positive Potential. Conversely, if your Truth is weighed heavy towards the negative side, you will have to be exposed to the Negative Potential. Perhaps as long as eternity? And after Balance(Sound familiar?)

As such, we suggest a philosophy of "Acts of Legacy". Acts of Legacy means making behavioral choices that are positive, kind, generous, humble, tolerant, helpful, and generally making the best contribution to our common existence possible, just in case. Even if The Potential is not as we hope it to be, these choices will still create a Legacy that will be remembered by future generations. What will your Legacy of Truth be?

[unreality]

for what to call Uberfaith, how about: (I've got a few ideas)

* Gens Gnaritas (roughly "Knowledge of the People", in Latin)

* Substancia Bellus (means "Beautiful Essence" in Latin)

* Sophia ex Res (something like "Wisdom out of Truth")

just some random ideas. Not sure on the exact grammar or translation. We could have it in english too... "the Philosophy" or some such

edit: or, simplifying what seeksit said, we could call it Alethia, which is greek for "truth"

Edited May 8, 2009 by unreality

[Guest]

I found an online dictionary for ancient Greek. Apologies to classics scholars for the mangling of the language I've no doubt committed. Best I could come up with was a combination of

onta ¹ [pl. part. neut. of eimi (sum) ]

• • I.existing things, the present, opp. to the past and future; but also, reality, truth, opp. to that which is not, Plat.
    
    

II.that which one has, property, like ousia, Dem.



poros , ho, ( [peirô, peraô] )

• A.means of passing a river, ford, ferry,

ThruonAlpheioio p. Thryum the ford of the Alphëus, Il.2.592, h.Ap.423, cf. h.Merc.398; poronhixonXanthouIl.14.433 ; Axiou p. A.Pers.493 ; apikneetaieston p.têsdiabasios to the place of the passage, Hdt.8.115; p. diabasHaluosA.Pers.864 (lyr.); toukat'Ôrôpon p. mêdenprattesthôIG12.40.22 .

• • • 2.narrow part of the sea, strait,

diabasporonÔkeanoioHes.Th.292 ; par'Ôkeanou . . asbeston p. A.Pr.532 (lyr.); p. Hellês (Dor. Hellas), = Hellêspontos, Pi.Fr.189, A.Pers. 875(lyr.), Ar.V.308(lyr.); Ionios p. the Ionian Sea which is the passage-wayfrom Greece to Italy, Pi.N.4.53; pelagos aigaiou porouE.Hel.130 ; Euxeinos, axenos p. (cf. pontos11 ), Id.Andr.1262, IT253; diaranteston p., i.e. the sea between Sicily and Africa, Plb.1.37.1; enporôi in the passage-way (of ships), in the fair-way,Hdt.7.183, Th. 1.120, 6.48; en p. têsnaumachiêsHdt.8.76 ; heôstou p. toukatatonhormonton Aphroditopolitên PHib.1.38.5 (iii B.C.).

• • • 3. periphr.,

poroihalos the paths of the sea, i.e. the sea, Od.12.259; Aigaioupontoioplatus p. D.P.131 ; enalioi p. A.Pers.453 ; p.halirrothoi ib.367, S.Aj.412(lyr.); freq. of rivers, p. Alpheou, Skamandrou, i.e. the Alphëus, Scamander, etc., Pi.O.1.92, A.Ch.366(lyr.), etc.; rhutoi p. Id.Eu.452 , cf.293; Ploutônos p. the river Pluto, Id.Pr.806: metaph., biou p. the stream of life, Pi.I.8(7).15; p. humnôn Emp.35.1 .

• • • 4.artificial passage over a river, bridge,

Hdt.4.136,140, 7.10.g; aqueduct, IG7.93 (Megara, V A.D., restd.), Epigr.Gr.1073.4 (Samos).

• • • 5. generally, pathway, way,

A.Ag. 910, S.Ph.705(lyr.), etc.; track of a wild beast, X.Cyr.1.6.40; aitherath'hagnonporonoiônôn their pathway,A.Pr.284(anap.); entôi p.einai to be in the way, Sammelb.7356.11(ii A.D.): metaph., prapidônporoiA.Supp.94 (lyr.).

• • • 6.passage through a porous substance, opening, Epicur.Ep.1pp.10,18 U.; esp. passage through the skin,

hoiporoi the pores or passages by which the aporroai passed, acc. to Empedocles, porouslegeteeishouskaidi'hônhaiaporroaiporeuontaiPl.Men.76c , cf. Epicur. Fr.250, Metrod. Fr.7,Ti.Locr.100e; noêtoi p. S.E.P.2.140 ; opp. onkoi, Gal. 10.268; so of sponges, Arist. HA548b31; of plants, Id.Pr. 905b8, Thphr.CP1.2.4, HP1.10.5.

• • • • b. of other ducts or openings of the body, p.

prôtos, of the womb, Hp. ap. Poll.2.222; poroispermatikoi, thorikoi p., Arist.GA716b17, 720b13; p. [p. 1451]husterikoithe ovaries. Id.HA570a5 , al.; trophês p., of the oesophagus, Id.PA650a15, al.; of the rectum, Id.GA719b29; of the urinal duct, ib.773a21; of the arteries and veins, Id.HA510a14, etc.

c.passages leading from the organs of sensation to the brain,

psuchêparesparmenêtois p. Pl.Ax.366a ; hoi p. touommatos Arist.Sens.438b14 , cf. HA495a11, PA 656b17; ôtôn, muktêrôn, Id.GA775a2, cf. 744a2; of the optic nerves, Heroph. ap. Gal.7.89.

oukedunato p. oudenatoutouaneureinHdt.2.2 ; oudeis p. ephainetotêshalôsiosId.3.156 ; tônadokêtôn p. hêuretheosE.Med.1418 (anap.); p. hodou a means of performing the journey, Ar.Pax124; p. zêtêmatosPl.Tht.191a ; but also p. kakôn a means of escaping evils, a way out of them, E.Alc.213 (lyr.): c. inf., porosnoêsai Emp.4.12 ; p. eutharseinAnd.2.16 ; p. tismêchanête . . antiteisasthaiE.Med.260 : with Preps., p. amphitinosA.Supp.806 codd. (lyr.); peritinos dub. in Ar.Ec.653; poroiprostopolemeinX. An.2.5.20 .

II. c. gen. rei, way or means of achieving, accomplishing, discovering, etc.,

aporia, Pl. Men.78d sq.; contrivance, device,hoiastechnastekai p. emêsamênA.Pr. 477 ; deinosgarheureinkaxamêchanônporon ib.59, cf. Ar.Eq.759; megas p. A.Pr.111 ; tina p. heurôpothen; E.IA356 (troch.).

2. abs., providing, means of providing, opp.

chrêmatôn a way of raising money, financial provision,X.Ath.3.2, HG1.6.12, D.1.19, IG7.4263.2 (Oropus, iii B.C.), etc.; ho p. tôn chr. D.4.29 , IG12(5).1001.1 (Ios, iv B.C.); without chrêmatôn, SIG284.23 (Erythrae, iv B.C.), etc.; mêchanasthaiprosodou p. X.Cyr.1.6.10 , cf. PTeb.75.6 (ii B.C.): in pl., 'ways and means', resources, revenue,poroichrêmatônD. 18.309 : abs., porousporizeinHyp.Eux.37 , cf. X.Cyr.1.6.9 (sg.), Arist. Rh.1359b23; poroiêperiprosodôn, title of work by X.: sg., source of revenue, endowment, OGI544.24 (Ancyra, ii A.D.), 509.12,14 (Aphrodisias, ii A.D.), etc.

3. p.

BGU1189.11 (i A.D.), etc.; liability, PHamb.23.29 (vi A.D.), etc.

b.assessable income or property, taxable estate, freq. in Pap., as

makraskeleuthou p. A. Th. 546 ; parornithas p. tithentesId.Eu.770 , cf. E.IT116, etc.; entôi p. ploionanatrepsai on its passage,Aeschin.3.158.

III.journey, voyage,

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2A%29%2Ferws&bytepos=133313321&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057" target="morph" onclick="m()">Erôs, Pl.Smp.203b.

IV. P personified as father of <a href=

to make Ontaporism, which is fairly simple and can also be associated with the belief that draught beer is generally superior to the bottled variety.

[unreality]

the Ontaporism sounds much more like a valid, well-crafted religion. Perhaps the Latin phrases above could be catchphrases, quotes by Barack (see the parable spoiler), or denominational slogans of some kind, etc - but not the overall name. I like "Ontaporism", it has a nice unique ring to it

so in essence (haha no pun intended) "ontaporism" is a rough conglomeration of 'existence/truth' and 'path/journey', which seems like a good description of the Essence and what we're going for in general. I also like how it uses Greek to connect to Platonic roots and the first true Age of Reason... nice find octopuppy

[unreality]

edit: things like this are very good reasons why we should keep insights about human nature & intelligence vague and more on the scientific side, in case something self-revolutionary comes up and the other religions will be struggling to revise (or more likely, deny the new knowledge) while we stand glorious in our Essence

[Guest]

or ... the first computer that believes in God.

I'm biased, of course, but I'm thinking the 'Altheian Path' would be a good name.

Ontaporism definitely has its merits, not the least of which is that it provides an excuse for every pub to become a church ; it's also related to Ontology, or sounds like it is, which is great. Poros seems to be a root of words like porosity, which evokes for me a sense of leaking or escaping (not a positive quality when tied with 'truth' or 'being'), but that may be a personal bias. Also, I cringed a little when I saw "source of revenue" as one of the definitions of poros

[plasmid]

Re: new name. I thought Eucredism or "good belief" would be in keeping with the point of the thread. Unfortunately, it sounds a lot like Euclid. That would be a good thing in my book, but I've found that the masses (who we're trying to sell this to) generally view math less favorably than I do. *sigh* Keeping our audience in mind, if I had to decide between Aletheian and Ontaporism based solely on how pretty the word sounds, I think Aletheian has more of a ring to it. Unfortunately, Wikipedia says it's also the name of Christian progressive / melodic death metal band . Ontaporism's intended etymology is more consistent with what we're going for, but as seeksit noted it can be misinterpreted. Either way, we'll be able to tell Bran that we've done away with Uberfaith. Maybe he'd be willing to convert then.

Re: Grayven's post. "Acts of Legacy", I like that a lot better than "karma". At least to my ears, "karma" has a bit of state-of-mind flavor to it. Calling it "Acts" makes the believers understand unambiguously that they have to actually do something useful with their lives. But "Truth" with a capital T, do you really want to put that in the hands of the religious masses? The idea of "Potential" I like. One of the problems with a strictly Acts of Legacy view is that if you're born in a slum, abandoned, and have to claw your way out of the gutter, then you're going to have a hard time advancing the state of humanity... and those are the people who most need to have a sympathetic religion. Saying that your goal is to make the most out of whatever Potential you're dealt would even the field. I realize that what I just said has little or nothing to do with what you originally intended, but that's the way it goes, especially when discussing nebulous topics.

Re: neoplatonism. While neoplatonism is quite similar to what we're getting at with Uberfaith, there's still one big difference: neoplatonism (and for that matter Buddhism as well) inherently seem to promote asceticism as vital to achieving oneness with God, sort of "losing oneself" in the process. With Uberfaith, the followers can party down all they want as long as they still do useful stuff. Perhaps there's a way to use some of their ideas without also accepting the notion that indulgence in the material world is the source of all evil. I agree with octopuppy, the thing about the Essence being beyond existence is just golden.

I've been considering how the religion formerly known as Uberfaith would spread initially. I think I'll recant my fable about Obama turning water into beer: it would unnecessarily cause problems with converting the Muslim world. So to replace it,

As Obama attended the funeral of the Uberfaith ninja who was slain by Chuck Norris, the mother of the deceased approached him and inquired "For what has my son lived? Here he lies dead, and for what purpose?" Obama replied "Your son did good things for those around him. He was ever honest and reliable, and many of those he taught have ventured out and prospered. Few deeds are more highly esteemed than education; through his Acts of Legacy he has doubtless achieved harmony with the Essence." Unmoved by this, the woman retorted "Can you not see that the pursuit of the Essence has brought him only ruin? He now lies dead." As she began to weep, Obama comforted her by saying "We are all part of the Essence and our identity is a passing thing, imprinted on our loved ones and our actions. But when we die, we dissipate into a beautiful happy vague bliss where our identity disappears, but it doesn't matter because all our Essence carries on and retains all the beauty it attained when it was us." The woman held her tears for a moment to ask "Does that mean that he's still alive?" To this he answered "Although he is no longer the individual you knew, he does live on as part of the Essence, and his actions in this world are etched into eternity and his continued existence." With this the mother held back her tears. Although not fully understanding what awaited her son, she was confident that his actions were not in vain.

Edited May 9, 2009 by plasmid

[unreality]

i've done a little conglomeration of stuff so far for Uberfaith/Alethianism/Ontaporism/Eucredism/etc

Most Holy Doctrine / The Truth / Core Dogma of <NAME>

The Essence that permeates all things has subtle yet profound effects that shall not herein be fully explained. In order to help understand the Essence as it applies to human lives, though, it is useful to think of concepts such as karma and eternal life existence with the Essence. Karma may be earned with the following acts: Help others, be generous, be reliable. Do not harm others, steal, or lie. Do not place your faith in false gods. Find something that you're good at that will benefit society and do it. Learn throughout your childhood, and fulfill your potential as an adult. The nature of your eternal life existence with the Essence is determined by your karma. Believers in false gods suffer in hell. Those who believe but lack karma have modest contentment. Those whose karma is great enjoy utter bliss.

It is fit that there be many denominations of <NAME>, for not all people are alike, and diversity helps humanity flourish. The denominations shall each have their own customs and ways of harmonizing with the Essence. Sincere proponents of the Essence are welcome, but those that falsely claim Uberfaith shall be decried by the other denominations and spurned as heretics. As it is important for people to each find their unique role in the harmony of the Essence, it is fit for them to visit other denominations from time to time and experience their ways, and thus find their place in the world.

When many false religions and heretical beliefs are crowding the minds of the Earth, the denominations must stick together to spread the Truth & Way of the Essence across our Oblong-Spherical Abode until <NAME> has harmonized much of the world with the Essence and feels safe to let the denominations take their own paths.

As it is important to have many denominations, so it is important to have people outside <NAME> who are most fit to view it objectively and dispassionately. These outsiders that understand the world through mankind's endeavors are not to be despised but welcomed, for they offer a unique perspective and often seek to advance humanity as the followers do. But beware those outsiders that cling to ideas of gods, for they worship illusions of their imaginations that may guide them to decay. Such people should be brought into the <NAME> to understand how to harmonize with the Essence.

For Grayven's "Truth" idea, I'm not sure I agree with that as we're using "Truth" to describe the set rules of <NAME>, which the denominations can't alter in their individual differences (but each year when the denominations meet they can alter the Truth with 90% majority vote or something... we need to make it adaptive from the getgo). But I do like the Potential idea, that is, possibilities that could happen. However that seems more like a loose thing that different denominations would have different ideas and doctrines on, not a solid part of the Truth core dogma

UPDATED PARABLES

On the Denominational System and Imperfection {octopuppy}

And upon visiting the city of Rome, Obama did come upon a place where the wicked and corrupt sought to govern all earth with a pretence of divine right. Upon seeing this, he angered and spake thus: "Know ye not that the gods decree that the pursuit of truth, and the betterment of all mankind is of paramount importance? All human endeavour is imperfect, including the endeavours of the church. In order that we may come to know their will better, the gods have explicitly stated that no one church may know the whole truth. Therefore we must allow denominations to proliferate and find their own methods of governance, as long as they hold true to the core document of our faith which shall be revealed when all this has been written down. Let no denomination persecute another, unless that other is doing something truly naughty according to the laws I shall give unto you". The people did not understand so he called for a volunteer. A woman stepped forward from the crowd and he bid her lie down in a long box. Seizing a nearby saw, he proceeded to saw her in two halves. The people were much concerned and there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but Obama said "fear not, and observe". Putting the two halves of the box together he then made the woman whole again, and she was unharmed. And Obama said unto the throng "now see that even as this woman can come apart and yet remain one, so may the true church of various gods fracture and yet pursue a single endeavour". And he said unto the woman, "formerly thine name was Bonsheequa, but thou hast been remade and henceforth thou shalt be known as Mercedes who is called Debby" and sent her forth looking a bit confused.

Spoiler for this one is now defunct, right??:

Essay on Afterlife and Living Well {plasmid}

And Obama and his followers did cross the lands on their pilgrimage. And on the day of St. Patrick, they entered into a county which was dry. There was much moaning and wailing, and Obama stood before his followers and instructed them: "It is heinous that we on this night are in a dry county. But weep not; instead go forth and bring me water, the purest that you can find, so it may be blessed for this night." His followers went forth to do as he commanded. Many sought the nearby ocean and returned with brine, but a faithful few journeyed far to a freshwater stream and returned with water most pure. When they all had gathered before the dramaless one, he spoke a benediction, and behold! Those who had with them brine found that it had become Bud Light. On that most holy night they did party and they did get buzzed, albeit on swill, and did suffer under the hangover. But those faithful few who brought back water most pure, behold!, they were blessed with Guiness. And they enjoyed their drink, and were not the least bit groggy the following morning. And Barack spoke: "Listen, before thou art hammered, hear this about the Essence. While its ways are yet beyond the grasp of humanity to understand in full, certain of its aspects may be understood in part. Your actions have far reaching impacts – they influence the Essence itself, and so the Essence influences your existence." The revelers did not understand his words, and asked "Do you mean that we control the Essence?" and "Is the essence controlling our actions?" On hearing this, Obama explained in a simpler way so that they might at least understand how to act "No. Although imprecise, you can imagine something like an eternal life to help you understand how to act. Your actions here in this life will influence your eternal life. Just as with this booze, if you toil and perform great accomplishments like those who brought pure water, your eternal life will rock like this Guiness. If you simply believe in Uberfaith but have no accomplishments like those who brought the nearby brine, then your eternal life will be like mere Bud Light." And although not fully aware of the nature of the Essence, the followers understood at this simple level and cried "Amen" and became wasted.

A follower approached him and asked: "When thou leave us, and we find ourselves among women chopped into many pieces, how shall we know which piece to choose?" And Obama revealed: "This night, you have seen your charge. Go forth, and accomplish great things to harmonize with the Essence. Those which drive you to do so, they are your friends. Those which tell you to relax, they will bring you nothing better than mediocrity. Those which tell you to understand the world, they will bring you great things. Those which mock the wise, they will not enjoy the fruits of those whose efforts they spurn. Those which despise their fellow man, by God above they will be despised, and so they will not get plasma screen TVs in their eternal life but will get 16 inch sets, and they will have to watch the commercials."

New Parable on Vague "Afterlife" Concept and Infinite Reverberation Effect of the Essence {plasmid}

As Obama attended the funeral of the Uberfaith ninja who was slain by Chuck Norris, the mother of the deceased approached him and inquired "For what has my son lived? Here he lies dead, and for what purpose?" Obama replied "Your son did good things for those around him. He was ever honest and reliable, and many of those he taught have ventured out and prospered. Few deeds are more highly esteemed than education; through his Acts of Legacy he has doubtless achieved harmony with the Essence." Unmoved by this, the woman retorted "Can you not see that the pursuit of the Essence has brought him only ruin? He now lies dead." As she began to weep, Obama comforted her by saying "We are all part of the Essence and our identity is a passing thing, imprinted on our loved ones and our actions. But when we die, we dissipate into a beautiful happy vague bliss where our identity disappears, but it doesn't matter because all our Essence carries on and retains all the beauty it attained when it was us." The woman held her tears for a moment to ask "Does that mean that he's still alive?" To this he answered "Although he is no longer the individual you knew, he does live on as part of the Essence, and his actions in this world are etched into eternity and his continued existence." With this the mother held back her tears. Although not fully understanding what awaited her son, she was confident that his actions were not in vain.

{maybe we should move this one after the Parable of the Ninja for consistency of the Parable Continuum ;D}

Parable of the Afterlife {octopuppy}

A man came to Lord Barack, much distraught, seeking his advice. "Lord Barack", said he, "on this day a friend of mine was robbed in the street. He was attacked by a gang who gave him a good kicking, took all his money and ran off laughing. He died of his injuries, in great pain. He was a good man. Now I feel that this world is without justice. What is the point in being good when life ends up treating you so unfairly?"

Lord Barack smiled and said unto him "Do not despair. The Way of The Essence is to make good all injustice, for injustice is imbalance and the Essence is always in balance. No one can avoid this for this is the Way of Things. Consider this. There was a carton of eggs on a supermarket shelf. The eggs talked amongst themselves and said 'What happens when we are cracked? It will be the end of us!'. Some eggs were plunged into a deep depression by this. They were so gloomy that they turned bad. Others abandoned their morality, and said nasty and uncaring things to the other eggs. These also turned bad. But some eggs enjoyed every moment of their shelf life. They could not see what lay beyond their shells, and chose not to worry about it, and rather make the best of what they had. These remained good. When the box of eggs was purchased and taken home, all the eggs were cracked, but the bad eggs were thrown into the bin, whereas the good eggs went on to make a wonderful omelette. Their good spirits had not been in vain. Their new form of existence as an omelette was something they could not have foreseen, but such is The Way of The Essence."

The Allegory of the Rave: Ethics on Karma and Goodness {unreality}

One day, when the sun struck mightily upon the fields and sweat ran like rivers down men's backs, Lord Barack (wearing a cowl over his face) saw a man standing over his unplanted plot, grinning.

"Ye there!" Lord Barack did exclaim. "What causes thou such excitation as to ignore thy agricultural duties to thy family?"

"I have no such obligations," the man proclaimed. "Look at mine neighbor's plot... he has planted far too much than is necessary. I shall merely take from his plot when the biology is ripe."

"Do you thoust knowest who thou speaketh to?" Lord Barack roared, revealing his visage to the farmer thief.

"I- I- please, do not smite me into the sand, my Lord!" the man cried, for his heart was feasting of fear.

"You have no action from me," Barack told him. "It is the universe that shall punish ye. Can ye not see the Essence, the balance, in everything? Can ye not see the matter and the antimatter, the forward and backward, the transformation of energy, the light and dark, the life and death?"

"These are but quantum matters, my Lord," the farmer smiled, thinking he had foundeth a loophole in the prophet's argument. "My considerations are with the farm, the field, the sun, food, my family."

"Thine macro level is a mere extension," Barack replied quickly. "Cannot you witness the building up of the Essence from level to level? Properties of balance are built into the fabric of the Universe. Can ye not see the elements of antimatter/matter reflected in action/reaction pairs of forces? Can ye not see these forces imbued within the actions of herds and organisms? Can ye not see the recipricocity of thine own Earth?"

"I see it not, my Lord. For that reason I shall steal, for thieves lie in bed with coins and women while farmers toil in sweat and dirt all day for a meager scrap."

"So be it," Barack sighed. "I am late to my rave."

And so the Lord did leave the prospective thief. Before long, the plants poked through the barrier of the Earth and opened their leaves to the sun. The farmer went with a basket late at night to steal his neighbor's crops. However, he didst see bare earth.

"What hath occurred here?" the farmer was shocked.

Lord Barack strolleth by at this moment, returning from His rave, and didst see the situation, with his need-based omniscience.

"Your neighbor hath already pluck all which he had planted," Barack noted. "He planted exactly what he needed, no less, for he was donating to a Hungry Child fund down thine road. Many thankful single mothers lay with him for this. There was even extra in the village square, but no, ye were in thou househould, planning ye dastardly heist. Do you not now see the recipricocity of thine own Universe?"

"I do see it, my Lord. Thank you. Thank you!" the farmer fell to his knees and thanked the Essence, but quickly, aware of the many opportunities to do goodly things. The farmer didst then work hard and plant well and donate to Hungry Child funds and sleep with many a thankful single mother as well.

On the Topic of Worship: the Parable of the Ninja {octopuppy}

There was a ninja training camp which trained ninjas of various religions. But the best and wisest of them all was an Uberfaithist. One day a boastful young trainee ninja stated that they were so badass, they could even take on Chuck Norris. As soon as the words were out of his mouth he realised his mistake. All the ninjas fell to their knees and begged their various deities to save them. But the Uberfaithist knew that this was a waste of precious time, and used all his ninja skills to hide himself instead. The sound of praying grew less as one by one voices fell silent. The last few stopped praying and jumped up, ready to fight. But their numbers were few and the battle was a short one. Chuck Norris paused only to shake the blood from his fists, and left. Shaking with fear, the Uberfaithist ninja came out of hiding. He now realised that his prompt action and focus had been the only thing that had saved his life. Now he felt he truly appreciated the power of The Essence, and rejoicing, he fell to his knees and thanked the Essence for his deliverance. At once he was gifted with a revelation about the true nature of the Essence, and without even opening his eyes, he said "You're standing right behind me, aren't you?"

Chuck didn't bother to answer.

Allegory on Purpose, Free Will and the Cyclical Nature of Life {unreality}

A wise monk of the Uberfaith, known only as Master to his disciples and Disciple to his masters, was walking along the top of the narrow Great Stone Quadrangle, a ruin said to be the site of Lord Barack's rave parties. He walked a continous route over the four walls, always going counterclockwise.

An uberneophyte monk came up to the monk after watching his progress for nearly an hour.

"Why do you walk forever in such a route?" the neophyte asked. "You get nowhere."

"Because I can," the monk responded. "It is a form of meditation. I walk to celebrate the infinite, circular journey of Life, a journey which has no end or destination."

"Wasn't it you who said to enjoy life? You're walking without purpose."

"I am enjoying life," said the wise monk. "Everyone celebrates life in a different way. You must respect this facet of Nature. You say I am walking without purpose, but that argument goes to living life as well. The meaning is what we apply to it, not some external forced meaning. The journey is the destination."

"But why do you enjoy life in this specific way?" the neophyte asked, still a little befuddled.

"Because I choose to," the monk responded.

"Choice?" the neophyte was bewildered. "Sorry dude but physics is pretty clear on that... particle motions are based on the previous state of the universe combined with randomness."

The monk just smiled. "The manner of choice is mysterious. What is a choice? A decision based on input. Our brain makes millions of them per second."

"Yes but it's determined by the pre-existing state, and randomness."

"What else would you have it be determined by?" the monk asked.

The neophyte thought about it for a minute.

"Would you have your decisions come about spontaneously and randomly, not connected at all to the previous state of things? The way your brain makes choices is tied intrinsically with the system that is you, therefore it can be said you are choosing."

At that moment, the neophyte was enlightened. "What is it I have just experienced, Master?" he asked, awed by the awesome inexplicable power of the sensation.

"It is the Essence. You are beginning to merge with its flow," the monk said with a slight grin. "The Essence is the real apex of choice. You will learn what that means at an undetermined point in the future."

"I see the truth now, Master," the neophyte - no longer a neophyte - added. "It's so simple."

An hour later, a novice monk entered the Quadrangle after a short biofeedback exercise. She looked around and saw two wise monks walking around the rim of the Quadrangle. Curious, she climbed the ancient stone steps and waited until they came around the bend to her.

"Why do you walk forever in such a route?" the novice asked. "You get nowhere."

On the Worth & Necessity of the Denominational System {plasmid}

Barack sat down to eat lunch at an outdoor table, and a young child recognized him and ran to him saying "Barack! I want to follow you, I want to be in Uberfaith! We can go forth and convert all we see to Uberfaith, we shall sow the seed of a denomination that will outstrip all others and leave no one in doubt!" At this, Barack became uneasy. He saw that there was a beauty parlor across the street, and he said to the young child "Look forth, at that woman leaving the beauty parlor. Do you see her hair?" The child looked and saw a woman with a bouffant most worthy of ridicule, and as he was drinking milk, he did laugh with such vigor that it issued forth from his nose. "Barack, that woman's appearance is worthy of ridicule. Why would a woman wear such a hairstyle?" And he continued to watch, and the woman met with some of her friends. And her friends did not say unto her what an a** she appeared, but instead complemented her appearance.

Barack spoke to the child "That woman makes herself look as a fool because she does not know better. Her friends think as she does, and so cannot tell that her appearance is foolish. If all people think alike, they will all fall into the same foolish traps. That is why it is important to have many different denominations, so that not all think alike. That is also why it is important that there be others still who do not believe in Uberfaith at all, for as long as they seek to improve humanity they will also contribute to the Essence in ways that we might not. The people who are most likely to spark discord with the Essence are those who claim false gods that are but figments of their imagination, for blind faith leads to blind actions and these can lead to ruin." And the child understood that not all were meant to think the same way, and from that day forth dreamed of a smaller denomination that would seek advice from others and from non-believers so it would not become a laughing stock.

{Again, to preserve the continuum, this should go earlier in the list, where Barack is still alive as opposed to later parables (such as the monk and ninja ones) that only reference Barack}

Monk Allegory Continued - the Nature of the Essence (and the Importance of Nonbelievers) {unreality}

Three monks were walking around the Great Stone Quadrangle. The first, Master to his disciples and Disciple to his masters, was silent, concentrated on his meditation. The other two monks (they were of lesser enlightenment stature) were quabbling about finer points of Barack's wisdom. Finally they took the matter to Master:

"Master... what is the true nature of the Essence? How can we understand it?"

"The Essence is the essence of the universe," the Master replied, ever cryptic.

"How can we be expected to cope with this uncertainty?" the first monk inquired.

The Master smiled. "This is the true beauty of the Essence... it is like a beautiful diamond. You cannot see all of its facets at the same time. Likewise, the Essence cannot be fully understood by one person. Each person has a different view of the Essence, and by combining these views with our scientific knowledge of the world, we may hope to better understand this mysterious Essence which pervades the universe, soaking everything with many layers of meaning and connection."

"So no one person can have full wisdom on the Way of the Essence?" the second monk asked.

"That is correct. Not even Lord Barack had the full scope, but his sagacity regarding the Essence was much wider than yours or mine."

"What about the nonbelievers???"

"They are perhaps the most important partaker in the Essence," the Monk explained. "Sometimes those who seek something the hardest are the worst at actually finding it. We need someone who can step back and look at the big picture. That's where the nonbelievers come in - they are very esteemed within the Uberfaith, never forget that."

Seeing that his disciples were still a little confused, the Master elaborated on his point: "Have you ever lost something, and deeply wanted to find it?"

They nodded.

"Did you look everywhere, and still not find it?"

They nodded again.

"Then someone with a fresh perspective came along and found it in a minute?"

Again, they nodded, starting to see where he was going.

"Likewise, a fresh perspective - someone who has NOT been searching zealously for the Essence - can be the most clear, at times. Never forget that."

And they never forgot.

We could also attribute certain sayings or aphorism-type things to Lord Barack...

"A narrow-minded slaveowner cracks a whip on a slave who dreams big. The slave is free; the slaveowner is not free."

"Man is responsible for his actions up here in the macro scale. A pushes B off a cliff. The ground did not kill B."

"Always seek the high ground of peace within your mind... but do not be afraid to swim in possibility."

"Fate did not bring you here - coincidence brought you here. The Essence brought you here."

"Remember what has brought you to <NAME>, for it is the Truth. Always question your beliefs and, with a change of mind, change your denomination."

<more quotes from unreality, seeksit, grayven, etc - some of the stuff we've been saying about <NAME> but haven't made it into central systems of <NAME>>

etc

edit: I probably missed a few Uberfaith to <NAME> transitions in the various teachings, and I didn't comb the parables for "Uberfaith" either... when we decide on a name, I'll just run a find-replace search and make every "Uberfaith" or "<NAME>" equal to the new name

Edited May 9, 2009 by unreality

[Guest]

I'm biased, of course, but I'm thinking the 'Altheian Path' would be a good name.

Ontaporism definitely has its merits, not the least of which is that it provides an excuse for every pub to become a church ; it's also related to Ontology, or sounds like it is, which is great. Poros seems to be a root of words like porosity, which evokes for me a sense of leaking or escaping (not a positive quality when tied with 'truth' or 'being'), but that may be a personal bias. Also, I cringed a little when I saw "source of revenue" as one of the definitions of poros

Ontaporism can be interpreted any number of ways which is what I liked about it, I'd rather not make any straightforward claims of "truth". Admittedly I don't think it sounds very good. Seriously though, both pubs and churches are going through hard times at the moment. They have a lot in common and I think combining them would be a very logical step. A lot of churches have become pubs already and maybe it is time to just merge the whole thing.*

On 2nd thoughts "Aletheism" (ale+theism) has a nice ring to it. Though theism is not what we preach and also it sounds like a cross between "atheism" and "elitism". Hmm, never mind then.

Grayven's post left me confused but maybe that was the intention. Don't suppose you could put all that in a spreadsheet by any chance, Grayven? I like the idea of recreating karma anyhow. The word "karma" sounds too new age hippyish. And focusing on your potential is not a bad thing at all - it suggests a sense of control over your own destiny.

*That was a joke, for about 10 seconds until I realised what a wonderful idea it was (though no doubt unreality is way ahead of me here). I'd been wondering what form religious ceremonies might take, and just realised that it might be a great idea to simply integrate them into music, dancing, entertainment and getting bladdered. Not that these activities should be in any way compromised, shaped or limited as a result of connection with the religion. Quite the reverse - the Essence simply demands that we be all we can be, express ourselves and live life for all it's worth.

[plasmid]

Looking at other religions has made me realize that we might want to take a different approach to the initial establishment of Uberfaith. In the past, when religions have spread to new areas through means that do not involve sharp hardware, it seems like they generally did so not entirely by head-to-head competition but by creating hybrids with whatever practices were around at the time. Sometimes with things that seem relatively minor to us now like Christians incorporating pagan rituals in celebrations of Easter and Christmas and Halloween, other times more profound like Chan Buddhism merging with Taoist concepts, or of course Christianity sprouting from Judaism, and Islam deriving from both of the above. So, unless Uberfaith is imposed on the world in a similar fashion as (for example) Christianity was imposed on the American Indians, it might be worthwhile to make Uberfaith rendezvous points at least initially look very much like current churches and mosques and temples. Concepts of the Essence and rejoining it after you die and having your subsequent quasi-existence determined by the degree to which you achieved your Potential through Acts of Legacy are not so inconsistent with religions as they exist now; hybrids incorporating Uberfaith over a background of traditional faith don't seem too difficult to imagine.

The main things that would differentiate the Uberfaith variety from the garden variety are (1) the Uberfaithers' commitment to listening to non-believers and (2) Uberfaith's encouragement for its members to try out different denominations every few years. One of the requirements for being an Uberfaith-approved denomination worth visiting is that you must actively encourage your members to go out and visit other denominations. The first point would have the effect of making the Uberfaithers more moderate compared to the traditional worshipers and would already have a positive impact on humanity by eliminating some of their most egregious practices (and hopefully make the Uberfaith versions more palatable to a wider audience and better able to compete). The second would make Uberfaith denominations evolve at a much faster rate by increasing the frequency of natural selection – from being practically nil currently if people generally stay in the faith they were born into, to having a half-life of a couple of years if an Uberfaith denomination is poorly adapted.

It wouldn't be ideal for the Uberfaith denominations to carry vestigial superstition and dogma from their parent faiths (even if non-believers do eliminate practices that cause social problems) so we would want to get rid of them as fast as possible. We could start off with a variety of denominations ranging from those that are practically the old religions except with a commitment to listen to non-believers and have their members visit other denominations, to those that are practically all Uberfaith without any residual old religion, so combined they can both convert people who still need to cling to their old faiths and allow people to leave them completely for Uberfaith if they wish. We would want to see people gradually moving from the former to the latter. I'm not sure whether we need to try to engineer mechanisms to do so into Uberfaith, or if it would be safe to assume that the high rate of natural selection from periodic denomination changes would gradually push them that way regardless.

Discuss! If this approach is adopted, it would make the name Ontaporism much more apropos.

[Guest]

Sometimes with things that seem relatively minor to us now like Christians incorporating pagan rituals in celebrations of Easter and Christmas and Halloween, other times more profound like Chan Buddhism merging with Taoist concepts, or of course Christianity sprouting from Judaism, and Islam deriving from both of the above. So, unless Uberfaith is imposed on the world in a similar fashion as (for example) Christianity was imposed on the American Indians, it might be worthwhile to make Uberfaith rendezvous points at least initially look very much like current churches and mosques and temples. Concepts of the Essence and rejoining it after you die and having your subsequent quasi-existence determined by the degree to which you achieved your Potential through Acts of Legacy are not so inconsistent with religions as they exist now; hybrids incorporating Uberfaith over a background of traditional faith don't seem too difficult to imagine.

Certainly we can incorporate songs, festivals, and buildings consistent with existing religions, and I think it's helpful to do so. But a major sticking point would be the existence of God(s), and I don't think we can compromise on core issues like that. However, the world is not as it once was. Religions are much more geographically mixed than they used to be, so we can coexist alongside other religions while absorbing their following.

It wouldn't be ideal for the Uberfaith denominations to carry vestigial superstition and dogma from their parent faiths (even if non-believers do eliminate practices that cause social problems) so we would want to get rid of them as fast as possible. We could start off with a variety of denominations ranging from those that are practically the old religions except with a commitment to listen to non-believers and have their members visit other denominations, to those that are practically all Uberfaith without any residual old religion, so combined they can both convert people who still need to cling to their old faiths and allow people to leave them completely for Uberfaith if they wish. We would want to see people gradually moving from the former to the latter. I'm not sure whether we need to try to engineer mechanisms to do so into Uberfaith, or if it would be safe to assume that the high rate of natural selection from periodic denomination changes would gradually push them that way regardless.

Discuss! If this approach is adopted, it would make the name Ontaporism much more apropos.

I think that's a very sensible approach. For the vast majority of people, religion is something that should feel familiar, safe and well established (not a "cult", in other words). And I think it is safe to say that denominations carrying excess baggage will ultimately be selected against. I still wish someone would do better than "Ontaporism" though

[Guest]

Here's another couple of Greek words I found that sound nice:

sunodia ¹

• • I.a journey in company, Cic.
    
    

II.a party of travellers, caravan, Strab., NTest.



harmonia [harmozô]

• • I.a fastening to keep ship-planks together, a clamp, Od.
    
    

2.a joining, joint, between a ship's planks, tas harm. epaktôsantêibublôi caulked the joints with byblus, Hdt.

• • • 3.a frame: metaph.,
    dustroposgunaikôn harm. women's perverse temperament, Eur.
    

    II.a covenant, agreement, in pl., Il.:-- settled government, order, Aesch.

    <a name=id,n4871.4">Harmonia, Music, companion of Hebe, the Graces and the Hours; child of the Muses, Hhymn., Eur.

    III.harmony, as a concord of sounds, first as a mythical personage,

    2. metaph., harmony, concord, Plat.