[Guest]

First, let me state some facts: (I'm sure their facts.)

1) We only use a certain amount of percentage of our brain.

2) Our brain functioning consists of neurons moving between nerve endings, correct?

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

4) Our body is controlled by the nerves which is controlled by the brain.

Now, depending if you believe in Christ, the Atonement, and the Resurrection, when Christ returns our spirits will be reunited with our bodies and be made perfect like Christ.

Now the questions.

What is controlling the brain and telling it to fire those neurons and how?

My theory is this:

We control our brain through a certain degree of telepathy, so with that you have to wonder: what else can we do when we are made perfect like Christ?

Personaly, I think we can fly.

Feel free to drop a line if you have any questions, comments, concerns.

Please nothing vulgar, profain, perverted, or rude. This is for fun.

-5dollers

[Guest]

Personally, I am not positive about all of what I believe. There is still much that I am working through and constantly evaluating. I do not have much biblical evidence to back this up, but when we die, I do not believe that we will be returning to our physical bodies. This is only my personal interpretation, I do not believe that the bible is specific one way or another about it. I am not able to explain how we would exist as this, but there are alot of things that I cannot explain about my religion. When we die, though, I do not think that flying will be the main thing on our minds. (it would be cool to fly though )

I do not blame anyone who chooses not to believe in the christian God as refered to in the Bible. It is difficult for me to understand why I do as well, and I am constantly battling within myself about it, but I cannot shake the idea that it holds truth, whether 100% or not. I have seen and heard too much to even try to not believe in God, but it is all personal experiences that I cannot give others as evidence. God frustrates me that way <_<

It is the personal relationship that I struggle with, mostly. When we die, I believe that the body and brain, our physical being that keeps us limited, will no longer exist. What that means as far as psychic powers and what not, idk.

[Izzy]

Discussion or debate? Philosophy is awesome, but for your theories to have a solid standing in the empirical world, I think your framework needs to begin off properly. For starters, your facts aren't fact at all. You say you're sure, yet "fact" two has a question mark at the end.

Quotes are annoying, so his statements are in red while my responses are in purple.

1) We only use a certain amount of percentage of our brain.

Wrong. It totally doesn't even make sense when you think about it. I mean, how would we even have evolved a brain that we don't use?

2) Our brain functioning consists of neurons moving between nerve endings, correct?

Wrong again. Chemical reactions in your body (hormones and stuff) create electrical signals, which cause neurons to interact.

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

I'm sorry, but what? I would have probably left this topic alone if not for the "don't argue, it's fact" statement right there. Spirits, along with your god, if they existed, would have been detected a long time ago. Come back with some evidence, present it to me in terms that make sense and are falsifiable, and I'll consider it. Mind, spirits and god are considered highly extraordinary claims, so I expect your evidence to be highly extraordinary. Until you, or someone else, has managed that, this is in NO WAY a fact.

4) Our body is controlled by the nerves which is controlled by the brain.

Umm, yeah, kinda. Your statements 2 and 4 go in circles. You say that the brain function by neurons sending signals, yet the brain causes the neurons to send signals.. Your sort of right, but go back and reread my answer to number 2.

Now, depending if you believe in Christ, the Atonement, and the Resurrection, when Christ returns our spirits will be reunited with our bodies and be made perfect like Christ.

At least this wasn't fact numero 5...

What is controlling the brain and telling it to fire those neurons and how?

Natural chemical reactions occurring in your body.

My theory is this:

We control our brain through a certain degree of telepathy, so with that you have to wonder: what else can we do when we are made perfect like Christ?

Personaly, I think we can fly.

We don't control our brain, we are our brain. The brain controls the body it inhabits. You can think anything you like, but that's only a result from, again, chemicals interacting and letting you think that way. Your body has limits, and unfortunately humans haven't evolved in a way that provides us with wings. However, feel free to test your hypothesis if you like. I for one would be interested in the outcome.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure some biologist can come around and explain the brain thing much better and more clearly than I can. *pokes Andromeda.*

[Guest]

Discussion or debate? Philosophy is awesome, but for your theories to have a solid standing in the empirical world, I think your framework needs to begin off properly. For starters, your facts aren't fact at all. You say you're sure, yet "fact" two has a question mark at the end.

I agree with Izzy on some of this, but I choose to speak about other things instead, choosing to take it more as a theological/philosophical discussion. You started with alot of "facts" that you said not to argue about, but not everything that you said is a fact. There is evidence to support most of it, but it is not all facts and the evidence is not sufficient, it depends on who is interpreting it.

EDIT: Just the comment "Dont Argue, it's fact" makes everyone want to jump on you and show you differently. If you want to continue the discussion, you can say something about what you believe and that you are not here to argue what you believe and you want to hear others' opinions of similar beliefs.

Edited March 3, 2009 by IDoNotExist

[Guest]

Spirits, along with your god, if they existed, would have been detected a long time ago.

Btw, I could not help but mention that this is also not a fact.

[Izzy]

I agree with Izzy on some of this, but I choose to speak about other things instead, choosing to take it more as a theological/philosophical discussion. You started with alot of "facts" that you said not to argue about, but not everything that you said is a fact. There is evidence to support most of it, but it is not all facts and the evidence is not sufficient, it depends on who is interpreting it.

Facts generally should not become matters of opinion. They should be stated in ways where they cannot be misinterpreted, and they should have, 5dollers, SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEM. I see you've somewhat met the first part of my criteria, but part two really is more important. Go do your research, find some interesting, persuading stuff, and I'll be here waiting.

..If we're going to take a theological approach, does this mean we get to exchange bible verses? =D?

[Izzy]

Btw, I could not help but mention that this is also not a fact.

Maybe not, but I think we can conclude that, without any reasonable doubt, I'm right. I mean, honestly?

[unreality]

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

wrong move, buddy That alone will get you hell on this forum - I don't have time right now but ohh, I'll be on tomorrow

[Guest]

First, let me state some facts: (I'm sure their facts.)

1) We only use a certain amount of percentage of our brain.

2) Our brain functioning consists of neurons moving between nerve endings, correct?

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

4) Our body is controlled by the nerves which is controlled by the brain.

Now, depending if you believe in Christ, the Atonement, and the Resurrection, when Christ returns our spirits will be reunited with our bodies and be made perfect like Christ.

Now the questions.

What is controlling the brain and telling it to fire those neurons and how?

My theory is this:

We control our brain through a certain degree of telepathy, so with that you have to wonder: what else can we do when we are made perfect like Christ?

Personaly, I think we can fly.

Feel free to drop a line if you have any questions, comments, concerns.

Please nothing vulgar, profain, perverted, or rude. This is for fun.

-5dollers

Whoa...... How are you SURE those are facts? Where is your proof?

1) We only use a certain amount of percentage of our brain.

I don't think so! God gave us a whole brain! And we use the whole thing. Not all at the same time, but we use every part at one point or another.

2) Our brain functioning consists of neurons moving between nerve endings, correct?

Nothing to say on this one... I am no expert on brain.

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

Even I disagree with that one.... Not fact at all. God made us humans, not spirits... We are humans period. We weren't spirits first. Our soul is a spirit, but it wasn't here first. our body and our soul were created similtaneneouly. And to Izzy's 'spirits aren't real' there is WAY too much evidence of spiritual exitstense... I am not even talking God here... There are spirits PERIOD... Even If you don't beleive in God that doesn't change ghosts and things.

4) Our body is controlled by the nerves which is controlled by the brain.

Like I said not a brain expert... but something bout that statement seems fishy.... Would about intellect and free will?

[Guest]

2) Our brain functioning consists of neurons moving between nerve endings, correct?

Wrong again. Chemical reactions in your body (hormones and stuff) create electrical signals, which cause neurons to interact.

"Stuff" should be stimulus, but I agree with your statement.

^ CuteSparklezGirl: What exactly is this "WAY too much evidence of spiritual exitstense" ? Please do explain.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Zerep

[Brandonb]

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits...... Don't argue, its fact.

Yeah... this little thing right here has completely turned me off to the debate that was being attempted.

You (5dollars) would've done much better to phrase these questions with an injunction such as "operating under the assumption these statements are true..."

But instead, you went all Al Gore on us and starting making false statements while saying that we can't argue it b/c it's fact.

Blah, well if at first you don't succeed....

[Izzy]

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

Even I disagree with that one.... Not fact at all. God made us humans, not spirits... We are humans period. We weren't spirits first. Our soul is a spirit, but it wasn't here first. our body and our soul were created similtaneneouly. And to Izzy's 'spirits aren't real' there is WAY too much evidence of spiritual exitstense... I am not even talking God here... There are spirits PERIOD... Even If you don't beleive in God that doesn't change ghosts and things.

Bah, gtg, will reply to this when I get home.

Also, yay, UR is coming.

[Guest]

Bah, gtg, will reply to this when I get home.

Also, yay, UR is coming.

YAY! This is going to be fun!

What I said before about there being evidence to support most of 5doller's statements, I should have been more specific. There is a bit of evidence that supports (some of) the theories, but nothing substantial or conclusive. Fact's cannot be argued, such as you said Izzy, but the explanations and reasons for those facts can differ.

[Concerning the non existence of God and spirits. Maybe not, but I think we can conclude that, without any reasonable doubt, I'm right. I mean, honestly?

You admit here that what you said is not a fact. I will not agree that you are correct.

Edited March 3, 2009 by IDoNotExist

[unreality]

cavalry is here

First of all, there is NO evidence at all (even nonconcrete evidence) other than human ideas that suggest there is any sort of spiritual soul somehow entangled with our body. Besides some of the philosophical impossibilities it represents that most people ignore, there's just no evidence of it, and in fact evidence to the contrary (I'm not saying we understand the brain but there are breakthroughs everyday by scientists showing that this emotion, that form of memory, this motivation, etc, comes from this area of the brain when these neurotransmitter chemicals release or those synapses fire).

Trust me... if anything pops up that supports "ghosts" (I'm not even going to go into all the contradictions with ghosts) and other spiritual stuff, I'd be the first to know (okay maybe not the first but you get my point I have a very good idea of how much evidence is out there of certain phenomena).

I don't really care if you want to believe in that stuff, but I'm just telling you that it's certainly not fact. Actually, the good majority (95% ;D) makes no sense at all

And spirits occupying us is even more out there. Intellect? Conscious thought? Free will? Those are most likely built upon our phyiscal brain, as I said earlier. It's easy to see how... though I suspect you don't want an in-depth description on how the brain works

For me, my own philosophy on this subject is too complex to post here... it involves my observation of balance in the universe (kind of Easternish when you think about it) and about how things are more than the sum of their parts in nature, by metastuff built upon stuff (example: your atoms don't know that physics essay is due on Friday... you do. It's a concept that doesn't exist in the absolute physical world of particles, but still exists, somehow, somewhere, on some higher level of metaknowledge. Another example: each cell in your body thinks it's doing its own thing for its own survival with free will - and it is. But then the cells as a whole make up our bodies. It is very possible that we are just like the cells, but for a gaialike living ecosystem)

Edited March 3, 2009 by unreality

[Guest]

cavalry is here

I don't really care if you want to believe in that stuff, but I'm just telling you that it's certainly not fact. Actually, the good majority (95% ;D) makes no sense at all

I really like your reply, particulary the final section on metastuff and whatnot. It makes sense and is well explained in the short paragraph.

Believe me, I do not want to argue ghosts, not something that I believe in, but what are you refering to in the above quote about the 95% that does not make sense? I am not claiming that I can explain it to you, but I am curious.

I will look up the "proof" that I have heard of over the years, but I cannot claim my personal reasons for believing God are based on facts so I am not positive of their validity. It will be interesting to research a little bit though.

I believe that you claim to be an atheist. Is this a decision based on facts and evidence, or a personal belief? How can anyone, basing their stance purely on known facts, be anything but agnostic? No one can definitively prove, with sufficient facts and evidence, that God exists, however, no one can prove, definitively, that God does not exist. (and do not misinterpret my meaning, I am not saying that because no one can prove God doesn't exist means that God does exist.)

I would not mind a discussion on how the brain works

[Izzy]

I believe that you claim to be an atheist. Is this a decision based on facts and evidence, or a personal belief? How can anyone, basing their stance purely on known facts, be anything but agnostic? No one can definitively prove, with sufficient facts and evidence, that God exists, however, no one can prove, definitively, that God does not exist. (and do not misinterpret my meaning, I am not saying that because no one can prove God doesn't exist means that God does exist.)

I realize this was directed at UR, but I believe I can answer. (At least for myself.)

My (non)belief is based entirely on facts that I've read in books and discovered online. The way I see it is like this (imagine it as a timeline):

1) Positive energy existed. (This is the only 'gap' in my argument, but I'll get to that.)

2) Enough of said energy accumulated in a very small amount of space, causing this energy to be extremely condensed, and yeah, Big Bang. Protons, neutrons, quarks, etc. went flying everywhere, and different sorts were attracted to each other through gravity, eventually creating the elements.

3) Elements, mainly hydrogen and carbon formed a sun, which was at least ten times bigger than the sun we orbit.

4) Eventually this sun "died", exploding into a supernova, and formed a new sun and the planets. (This has happened at least 10²³ times independently, so, by pure probability, a planet in the "Goldilocks Zone" like Earth was bound to form.)

5) First you get very basic single-celled organisms, the kind that reproduce a-sexually, eventually you get less basic lifeforms, then somewhat complicated ones, and viola, eventually we have us awesome and complex humans.

Okay, so all of that fits, assuming we can figure out how the initial energy came about. Honestly, I don't know. I do know that all the energy in the universe cancels out exactly to 0, so however it did happen obeys the laws of the universe, because it was really neither created or destroyed. But I don't need to know where that energy came from to abandon my belief in god. After all, the Bible, which should never have had to be revised assuming it came from a supreme being that knew past, present, and future, said god created the Earth. I know how the Earth was formed, some god did not do it. It was also claimed that we, the mighty, amazing, and apparently important mankind, we chosen as the favorite among god's creatures and put here. Er, no, sorry. We evolved from apes. I hate to sound depressing here, but we're not important, and there is no profound reason to our being here. It just happened like that, and some people, with good reason, can't/won't accept it. Which is why fun places like heaven and paradise were created, to get past that fear of dying. I love the concept, man I don't want to die, but it's nothing more than some silly story like the ones people tell their kids about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

But yeah, back to the gap. God really is a "God of the Gaps", as Victor Stenger put it. The more science advances, the smaller the gaps become, and the less places God has to retreat to. An example of this was during the pre-heliocentric times, when the earth was still flat and heaven was just above the clouds. ... Do you see the problem here? We will eventually get to the point where we do know everything (..some day), and even if god did exist (he doesn't) we would have no need for him. Because life as we know it could have (and probably has on other planets) arisen naturally whether a god was there to kick things off or not.

Oh, one more thing. This is directed at any theist. Why is it that none of you have been able to come up with any valid point justifying the existence of god?

[Izzy]

Fact's cannot be argued, such as you said Izzy, but the explanations and reasons for those facts can differ.

You admit here that what you said is not a fact. I will not agree that you are correct.

Explanations for facts should be facts as well.

You don't have to agree. *shrugs* That's your choice.

[Guest]

if you need your proof go look at the new thread... Is there a spiritual world?

[unreality]

I really like your reply, particulary the final section on metastuff and whatnot. It makes sense and is well explained in the short paragraph.

thanks

Believe me, I do not want to argue ghosts, not something that I believe in, but what are you refering to in the above quote about the 95% that does not make sense? I am not claiming that I can explain it to you, but I am curious.

by the 95% I meant the crazy bullsh*t like leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, ghosts, goblins, etc. I didn't mean to insult your beliefs if they include any of the above

I will look up the "proof" that I have heard of over the years, but I cannot claim my personal reasons for believing God are based on facts so I am not positive of their validity. It will be interesting to research a little bit though.

ooh if the proof is lookupable then I've heard of it. There are a number of fallacious proofs that people try to justify their belief in god with, and all of them have some sort of catch, loophole or fallacy that not only makes the assertion illogical but also shows that the true intended meaning of it is also faulty. But that's expected, because they're justifications for true belief - if you have to look up on the internet why you believe in god, then you don't believe in god. Your personal reasons should be your own worldview, you know what I mean?

I believe that you claim to be an atheist. Is this a decision based on facts and evidence, or a personal belief? How can anyone, basing their stance purely on known facts, be anything but agnostic?

This is a good question, and a very intelligent one. Believe me - I've grappled with it. While I think technically I'm an atheist, I see agnostic and atheists as essentially the same thing since they both live their lives assuming no gods swooping down to fix their problems or bring them to eternally boring paradise ;D

For me the difference between the two is only strength of belief, and that fluctuates day by day, even a stalwart religious person or stalwart atheist (ADParker for example I miss his brutally logical posts) has his or her doubts.

So I would label myself as a "freethinker" perhaps

No one can definitively prove, with sufficient facts and evidence, that God exists, however, no one can prove, definitively, that God does not exist. (and do not misinterpret my meaning, I am not saying that because no one can prove God doesn't exist means that God does exist.)

replace with God in your above statement with "unicorns" or "flying spaghetti monster" or "invisible dragon that lives in my garage that only I can detect"

I would not mind a discussion on how the brain works

awesome I think that's out of the scope of this topic, but I've discussed it elsewhere and wouldn't mind talking about it in PMs. I'm not really an expert though... maybe a biologist like dawh or supersmart scientist like ADParker would be more informative and confident about what they were saying

[Guest]

Even though I don't agree with a lot of stuff you guys have posted... I got to say... our philosophy is really impressive!

[Izzy]

Even though I don't agree with a lot of stuff you guys have posted... I got to say... our philosophy is really impressive!

'Our' as in?

*edit* Unless that was meant to say 'your'.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Izzy

[Guest]

'Our' as in?

*edit* Unless that was meant to say 'your'.

sorry... ment to say your

[Izzy]

sorry... ment to say your

Heh, don't be sorry. Thanks.

[Guest]

I am working on a better, more complete response, particullarly to the statments made by Izzy, but here are some things I wanted to respond to right away. Unrealitie's comments are in Red and mine are in blue. To fully understand them, you will have to look up his previous post which comments on my first statement.

by the 95% I meant the crazy bullsh*t like leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, ghosts, goblins, etc. I didn't mean to insult your beliefs if they include any of the above

Lol, believe me, you aren't. But dont worry about insulting me with anything, speak what you believe.

ooh if the proof is lookupable then I've heard of it. There are a number of fallacious proofs that people try to justify their belief in god with, and all of them have some sort of catch, loophole or fallacy that not only makes the assertion illogical but also shows that the true intended meaning of it is also faulty. But that's expected, because they're justifications for true belief - if you have to look up on the internet why you believe in god, then you don't believe in god. Your personal reasons should be your own worldview, you know what I mean?

I do not have to look up proof for my own sake. I know why I believe in God, however, it is much more difficult to convince others. I love science, and the amazing theories that are out there today, and the theories that continue to arise as we become more knowledgeable continue to astound and intrigue me, but I realize at the same time that, if there is a God, science will never be able to prove it, and, sadly, science is the only way to get most people's attention. It is sort of a vicious circle in that my belief compels me to speak to others about it in order to convince them, however I have no sufficient physical evidence backing me up.

This is a good question, and a very intelligent one. Believe me - I've grappled with it. While I think technically I'm an atheist, I see agnostic and atheists as essentially the same thing since they both live their lives assuming no gods swooping down to fix their problems or bring them to eternally boring paradise ;D

Well, I know of a few agnostics who live as if there is a god, just in case. Not the best reason, if you ask me. About the eternally boring paradise, I understand what you are saying. I work out my own hypothesis about heaven constantly, but I do not think I will ever fully understand or be able to comprehend. As far as a physical paradise heaven, I don't believe in it. But I am willing to accept the idea that I could be wrong. Just as I could be wrong about all of this.

For me the difference between the two is only strength of belief, and that fluctuates day by day, even a stalwart religious person or stalwart atheist (ADParker for example I miss his brutally logical posts) has his or her doubts.

So I would label myself as a "freethinker" perhaps

Well then, I guess I just happen to be one of those agnostics who has an emense amount more doubt than faith, concerning what you are talking about here (the non-existence of God).

replace God in your above statement with "unicorns" or "flying spaghetti monster" or "invisible dragon that lives in my garage that only I can detect"

You are right, and I guess some would find it hypocritical to believe in something that I believe to be true, but cannot be disproved, but refuse to believe the same for what others believe to be true. However, you must also admit that our existence does not hinge on "unicorns" or "invisible dragons". "FSM" on the otherhand......who am I to tell God what he can and cannot do or look like. ARR!!! (jk ) I will work on a better response to this, thank you for posing the statement.

awesome I think that's out of the scope of this topic, but I've discussed it elsewhere and wouldn't mind talking about it in PMs. I'm not really an expert though... maybe a biologist like dawh or supersmart scientist like ADParker would be more informative and confident about what they were saying

Shoot me a PM with an internet link, if you have one. That might be more effective.

Thanks for the discussion! I look forward to being torn apart!

[Guest]

Facts generally should not become matters of opinion. They should be stated in ways where they cannot be misinterpreted, and they should have, 5dollers, SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEM. I see you've somewhat met the first part of my criteria, but part two really is more important. Go do your research, find some interesting, persuading stuff, and I'll be here waiting.

..If we're going to take a theological approach, does this mean we get to exchange bible verses? =D?

Sure we can exchange bible verses if you want, and Book of Mormon verses .

[Guest]

Whoa...... How are you SURE those are facts? Where is your proof?

1) We only use a certain amount of percentage of our brain.

I don't think so! God gave us a whole brain! And we use the whole thing. Not all at the same time, but we use every part at one point or another.

2) Our brain functioning consists of neurons moving between nerve endings, correct?

Nothing to say on this one... I am no expert on brain.

3) Before we came to this earth, we where spirits, (like a glove, hand is the spirit, glove is the body, body can't move without the spirit) when we die our spirits leave. Don't argue, its fact.

Even I disagree with that one.... Not fact at all. God made us humans, not spirits... We are humans period. We weren't spirits first. Our soul is a spirit, but it wasn't here first. our body and our soul were created similtaneneouly. And to Izzy's 'spirits aren't real' there is WAY too much evidence of spiritual exitstense... I am not even talking God here... There are spirits PERIOD... Even If you don't beleive in God that doesn't change ghosts and things.

4) Our body is controlled by the nerves which is controlled by the brain.

Like I said not a brain expert... but something bout that statement seems fishy.... Would about intellect and free will?

I wasn't entirely sure they were facts hence (I'm sure their facts) in parenthesis (). Leaving myself open for any corrections, input, etc.

Also, let me say, yes we where spirits before this mortal life.

Assuming that your "Would" is supposed to be "What" in your last question, my whole philosophical point was that basicly our bodies are hooked up to our brain by nerves, etc., and the question was that "What is controlling the brain?" I'm sorry to have caused some confusion about religon, ghosts, spirits, dragons, and goblins, etc. That was not my intent to spur off religous and belief debates.

I just think it would be cool to fly.

(Nothing racilistic, religous, or nationality intended)

(Thats supposed to be humerous by the way.)

-5dollers