[Guest]

So my friend and I were talking about the BD (I keep telling him that he should join) and he told me about Mensa. Which is a world wide society of genius'. He gave me a link to their practice test. I didnt score great, but I did okay.

You're supposed to time yourself and finish in less then 30 min.

Take the test, dont cheat, and post your score (if you want)

http://www.mensa.org/workout2.phpMensa

I think some of the BD's can crush this test. prove me right.

[itachi-san]

I'm not saying that measuring IQ is pointless. It is a way of quantifying certain types of abilities, so measuring it and aiming to improve your IQ is in some ways useful. I just don't like the mindset promoted by an exclusive club for those with high IQ. It suggests that they are in some way better, or better company, or more interesting or stimulating than other people. If you didn't have to take a test to join, it would be a different matter. It would be a club like any other, defined by the interests and qualities of its members, who would be (as in most clubs) self-selecting. But by setting a target IQ and testing, they create an artificial standard of "intelligence" and promote the notion that this matters more than it really does. Real intelligence manifests itself in so many ways, and largely boils down to values and choices. As Forrest Gump says, "stoopid is as stoopid does".

I'll offer up a story of my childhood that might shine some light on why an "exclusive club for those with high IQ" could be a good thing. I'll just explain what happened and let others draw their own conclusions.

When I was in 3rd grade I was pulled out of class and asked to take a very long IQ test, as were a handful of other students in my class. The basis for this was to find kids with IQs above 140 and put them in separate classes for about 1/3 of the school day because frankly the regular classes were too easy for us. It turned out that in my grade only one other boy, one girl and myself made the cut and we joined about ten other kids in the whole elementary school to attend these extra classes. They were very fun and interesting for us: we made robots, learned computer programming, made rockets and did a lot of other physics and chemistry experiments. In lieu of this, we would have been going over basic math or composition and probably sleeping at our desks.

So what happened was that a lot of parents got enraged that their kids were "excluded" from these classes so the academic board agreed to lower the IQ standard and the next year there were about 50% more kids involved which was still fine, but noticeably slower paced. And then the parents of the kids who were still left out complained and got the bar lowered again for the next year. This happened continually until the class got so big they had to make it two separate classrooms. With the large group and lessened requirement came a lot of reduced activities and slowed progress so that everyone could catch up. To me, the classes became boring again and I felt like I was just doing double the normal schoolwork. This led to me making the decision to just stop showing up at the classes and the original group of kids followed suit. I came away from the experience as being seriously let down by my school and I didn't really take much interest in school again until college.

I realize this wasn't Mensa, but I think the exclusive group is an appropriate analogy.

[Guest]

I agree with Itachi-san. I think people join to meet nice, intelligent people who are similiar to them, not to prove or brag about how "superior" they are. To me it seems that, in general, people with higher IQs are less superficial/ materialistic/ self-centered and just nicer people (maybe I'm wrong, but this is true for people that I know). Also, it's easier to relate to someone with an intelligence level close to yours.

Anyway, responding to what Itachi was saying about school- I can definitely relate to you there. I HATED elementary school. It was so ridiculously easy and boring. And the worst thing was when the teachers would talk for hours about something that I already understood, I would try to keep my brain alive by reading a book or drawing. Then, of course I would get my book snatched away and the teacher would yell at me for not paying attention or give me detention, call my parents, etc. So, I had to just sit there and let my brain slowly rot. I was more intelligent than all my teachers and I'm pretty sure all the other kids in the school and it was SO FRUSTRATING!!

Sorry if that was of topic, I just had to get it off my chest.. now I'm angry and want to scream at someone...

[Yoruichi-san]

I'll offer up a story of my childhood that might shine some light on why an "exclusive club for those with high IQ" could be a good thing. I'll just explain what happened and let others draw their own conclusions.

When I was in 3rd grade I was pulled out of class and asked to take a very long IQ test, as were a handful of other students in my class. The basis for this was to find kids with IQs above 140 and put them in separate classes for about 1/3 of the school day because frankly the regular classes were too easy for us. It turned out that in my grade only one other boy, one girl and myself made the cut and we joined about ten other kids in the whole elementary school to attend these extra classes. They were very fun and interesting for us: we made robots, learned computer programming, made rockets and did a lot of other physics and chemistry experiments. In lieu of this, we would have been going over basic math or composition and probably sleeping at our desks.

So what happened was that a lot of parents got enraged that their kids were "excluded" from these classes so the academic board agreed to lower the IQ standard and the next year there were about 50% more kids involved which was still fine, but noticeably slower paced. And then the parents of the kids who were still left out complained and got the bar lowered again for the next year. This happened continually until the class got so big they had to make it two separate classrooms. With the large group and lessened requirement came a lot of reduced activities and slowed progress so that everyone could catch up. To me, the classes became boring again and I felt like I was just doing double the normal schoolwork. This led to me making the decision to just stop showing up at the classes and the original group of kids followed suit. I came away from the experience as being seriously let down by my school and I didn't really take much interest in school again until college.

I realize this wasn't Mensa, but I think the exclusive group is an appropriate analogy.

Yeah, I can see how that would have frustrated you (I would have felt the same way), but reading your story, it seems to me that the cause of the problem was the sequence of events, the IQ requirement itself combined with the pride and jealousy of the parents, not the idea of letting ppl join who want to, which is what Octopuppy seems to be suggesting. Here is my analysis: (as a child of Asian parents...;P)

The idea of having an accelerated class for the talented and interested students was a great one. The original kids were ones who were indeed bored with the current curriculum and wanted something more challenging and interesting, and were motivated to participate.

However, when other parents saw this, they were irked that their children couldn't get in because they didn't like the idea that their children were somehow inferior to the other children. This feeling was propagated by the fact that the requirement was a high IQ, which made it seem like the students in the class were "smarter" or "better" than students who weren't in the class. So they complained until the school lowered it's bar and let their children in, and that gave them the ego boost they were looking for. The new group of children didn't necessarily want to be there, they may or may not have been bored and wanted new challenges, but they were forced to to satisfy their parent's egos.

But not that more students were getting in, more parents were having inferiority complexes and they complained more...until the result you mentioned occurred. The more students that were forced to join, the less likely that they actually wanted to be there, but they didn't have a choice in the matter. They were unhappy, and were not eager and motivated to face challenges like you guys were, so of course the quality was dragged down...until it reached the dire state you were talking about.

However, if it hadn't been a big ego thing for the parents, if it initially hadn't been advertised as a "gifted" section, but had been advertised as, like, an extracurricular thing that any student who had interest in challenging themselves could join, then the problem probably wouldn't have occurred. Basically, the IQ requirement made it seem like the children in the class were superior, which made the others and their parents resent not being in it. If it had been purely by interest, then most of the students who joined later in order to buttress their own self-esteem as well as their parents' wouldn't have joined. Only those truly interested, like you and the initial two others and maybe a few more who truly wanted to get more out of it, would have joined, and the class would have continued to be fun for you.

There's my 2 cents...human nature sure can be ugly...;P

[Guest]

I agree with Itachi-san. I think people join to meet nice, intelligent people who are similiar to them, not to prove or brag about how "superior" they are. To me it seems that, in general, people with higher IQs are less superficial/ materialistic/ self-centered and just nicer people (maybe I'm wrong, but this is true for people that I know). Also, it's easier to relate to someone with an intelligence level close to yours.

Anyway, responding to what Itachi was saying about school- I can definitely relate to you there. I HATED elementary school. It was so ridiculously easy and boring. And the worst thing was when the teachers would talk for hours about something that I already understood, I would try to keep my brain alive by reading a book or drawing. Then, of course I would get my book snatched away and the teacher would yell at me for not paying attention or give me detention, call my parents, etc. So, I had to just sit there and let my brain slowly rot. I was more intelligent than all my teachers and I'm pretty sure all the other kids in the school and it was SO FRUSTRATING!!

Sorry if that was of topic, I just had to get it off my chest.. now I'm angry and want to scream at someone...

OK I HATED Jr High and Grammar school! I was picked on and bullied harshly!

But I was really bothered by the fact that the teachers seemed to do nothing about it. Maybe this is why I decided not to be a teacher. I thought about it after I got my master's.

The teachers are so limited and stiffled my the administration, PTA, etc.

Did you know that there are at least 16 different ways that kids learn? Currently the way our schools are set up is the way the army teaches its officers. So that leaves ~15 other groups

of kids feeling helpless. I was one of those kids.

I went to special school called Switzer for 2 years after lunch in grades 2 and 3. Turns out I have an odd form of dislexia. Math and spelling are the toughest for me but I went from an F in those areas to a C or B. The others I stayed at an A level.

I agree with Itachi. Parents are a pain in the a**!! But it is a part of the parental instinct to want your child to have all the opportunities they can get.

Reminds me how many types of intelligence there are. Book and Street smarts, emotional intelligence....

I am wickedly emotionally and street smart. But I nearly failed Chemistry and Geometry.