[Guest]

After reading though some of the other discussions and debates, ie. Religious debate, War Club sign up, and Athiest discussion, I feel that the concept of theism is misrepressented on this site.

I would like a thread were people can ask questions and talk about theism, and calmly explain why they believe the way they do.

Its a gross misinterpetation that religous people are ignorant and that they dont believe in science and reasoning.

Anyone can post, but in this thread but I would like to keep to the assumption that there is a god, regardless of who you think he/she/it is. The purpose of this is not to argue over the existence of something that can neither be proven nor disproven. Otherwise it will just turn into the religous debate part 2, and I dont think anyone wants that.

And we will define religion as a belief system, not neccissarily organized.

[unreality]

Okay, I'm not a theist, but you didn't outlaw atheists, so I'd like to pitch in

Its a gross misinterpetation that religous people are ignorant and that they dont believe in science and reasoning.

I agree! So many people think that science and religion, or logic and religion, etc, are opposites or something. To put it bluntly, science doesn't care about religion. You could believe in any god you want, or no god, and the science would be the same. They're not on the same level to be equals or opposite... religion is about people's faith, science and logic and math and philosophy even are about the real world. Although it's rare, a few famous scientists have been religious

[Guest]

And I agree, except the part about philosophy, because it very well could be defined as a religion in its own right, with different arguing denominations, just like the church.

Atheists are more than welcome.

[Guest]

I'll kick off the discussion with the topic of evolution.

Most Christians think its wack and most everyone else thinks that Christians are nuts for not believing in it.

Your thoughts?

Edited September 9, 2008 by NM_EJL

[unreality]

Oh, to add onto my earlier thread of thought:

The places where fact/science start to collide with religious beliefs is stories in a holy book. Ie, for Christians, Bible stories. Global floods, giants, angels, demigods, etc. That kind of thing. But if you can pass off the stories in the Bible as just that (stories) you're all set

And the places where logic and religion collide is when theists try to come up with arguments for Gods'/God's existence in the philosophical-type world, such as how the universe is too complex and requires a designer (and thus ignore logic, which would say that the designer is too complex as well and requires a designer).

So they do start to conflict in certain areas

[Guest]

After reading though some of the other discussions and debates, ie. Religious debate, War Club sign up, and Athiest discussion, I feel that the concept of theism is misrepressented on this site.

I would like a thread were people can ask questions and talk about theism, and calmly explain why they believe the way they do.

Its a gross misinterpetation that religous people are ignorant and that they dont believe in science and reasoning.

Anyone can post, but in this thread but I would like to keep to the assumption that there is a god, regardless of who you think he/she/it is. The purpose of this is not to argue over the existence of something that can neither be proven nor disproven. Otherwise it will just turn into the religous debate part 2, and I dont think anyone wants that.

And we will define religion as a belief system, not neccissarily organized.

Yet this is what my thread is about, only that it kinda turned in the wrong direction. Hehehe ^^"

Oh well, i'll post in this thread... although my views and opinions on war and everything else is in my thread...

[itachi-san]

Its a gross misinterpetation that religous people are ignorant and that they dont believe in science and reasoning.

I completely agree as well. I used to not agree, but changed my mind based on two people I have met. They work together as scientist/researchers and in my opinion are the smartest people (complete geniuses) that I have ever met. They are also both highly spiritual and religious. It took me a long time to sort that out in my head. I kept thinking "How could such great scientists believe in God?, etc..." Then I realized that the issues are completely separate. It comes down to fact and faith, which cannot be compared as unreality pointed out.

[Guest]

To me it all boils down to presuppositions.

If, in your reasoning, you presuppose that there is no god, then of course religious stories dont make any sense. If you allow in your reasoning for the existence of a god, then really anything is possible. Its less of a conflict of "Reason" and "Fact" as a conflict in one persons individual view.

[Guest]

I'll kick off the discussion with the topic of evolution.

Most Christians think its wack and most everyone else thinks that Christians are nuts for not believing in it.

Your thoughts?

Quite a hypocritical notion if you ask me. Most Christians think it's "wack" that the ancient Greeks/Romans, Egyptians, etc believed in multiple gods and goddesses, that Buddhists worship Buddah, Musilms Allah, etc,etc,etc.

Coming from an Eastern Orthodox Background (Most commonly known as Greek Orthodox) I've noticed that hose that were very religious didn't think much of anyone else. My priest one day told this joke, which proved a good point.

One day a Catholic man died and went to to heaven. St. Peter looked at his record and said, "Ok go down the hall into the 7th door but be quiet when you pass the 3rd one.

The next a Buddhist died and again, St. peter looked at his record and said, "Ok go down the hall into the 5th door, but be quiet when passing the 3rd one."

An Agnostic died and went to heaven (Much to his own shock) and St. Peter looked at his record and said, "well you don't believe in 'God' but you did live a good life, you helped the poor, fed the hungry, took care of your dying wife in her last days, go down the hall into the 9th room but be quiet when you pass the 3rd one."

The Agnostic looked at St. Peter and asked, "What's so special about the 3rd door?"

St. Peter looked at hims and said, "Oh that's where the Orthodox go, and they think they're the only ones here."

For the athiests, this is a 'whatever' sort of point. (UR correct me if I'm wrong) But you don't have to be Christian, or part of any religion to be a good person. You just have to be good.

[Guest]

Science and Religion absolutely go hand in hand. When God created the universe and everything in it he did so with "divine design" so that there would be a system by which all things function. Unless they have somehow been left completely in the dark ages I think that all theists believe that Science, Mathematics, and the other properties and languages of the universe were put in place by God...and so they are are not at odds with one another, but completely interwoven.

I mentioned this in the "Religious Debate" thread, but I will mention it again here as well: My brother-in-law, Scott, was born into a fervent athiestic family. His father, a professor of Biology, was so strongly opposed to the idea of Creationism that he became a major spokesman and lobbiest for the ban of teaching Creationism or anything other than evolution. Scott was raised by the same beliefs. He went on to become a very brilliant scientist in the fields of Evolutionary Biology and Genetic Pre-disposition. After attaining his PdD he was recruited by several Ivy League Universities and settled at Cornell where he was a key scientist in mapping of the Human Genome. Scott went on to become THE foremost scientist in his field of Statistical Biology and evolutionary function and was sought world-wide by his peers. Beyond the hundreds of Science journals his work was published in he was also named by Discover Magazine for one of 2007s top 100 scientific discoveries (#40, in fact.) However, this man, this brilliant scientist, this critical thinker, this seeker of truth came to a point in his life, at the age of 32 where he could no longer deny the existance of a higher power. The more he noodled through the scientific evidence, the more convinced he became that the existance of the universe and of man was not by accident, but the work of a Creator. To the total aghast of his parents, he devoted his heart and his life to God.

I would love to know if there are any athiests out there who could possibly have a more intimate understanding of the functioning of life and the universe than Scott. Perhaps the information they have been presented with throughout their lives have influenced them to close off the part of their heart that knows the truth about the existance of God?

Edit: grammar

Edited September 9, 2008 by puzzlegirl

[unreality]

Quite a hypocritical notion if you ask me. Most Christians think it's "wack" that the ancient Greeks/Romans, Egyptians, etc believed in multiple gods and goddesses, that Buddhists worship Buddah, Musilms Allah, etc,etc,etc.

Coming from an Eastern Orthodox Background (Most commonly known as Greek Orthodox) I've noticed that hose that were very religious didn't think much of anyone else. My priest one day told this joke, which proved a good point.

One day a Catholic man died and went to to heaven. St. Peter looked at his record and said, "Ok go down the hall into the 7th door but be quiet when you pass the 3rd one.

The next a Buddhist died and again, St. peter looked at his record and said, "Ok go down the hall into the 5th door, but be quiet when passing the 3rd one."

An Agnostic died and went to heaven (Much to his own shock) and St. Peter looked at his record and said, "well you don't believe in 'God' but you did live a good life, you helped the poor, fed the hungry, took care of your dying wife in her last days, go down the hall into the 9th room but be quiet when you pass the 3rd one."

The Agnostic looked at St. Peter and asked, "What's so special about the 3rd door?"

St. Peter looked at hims and said, "Oh that's where the Orthodox go, and they think they're the only ones here."

For the athiests, this is a 'whatever' sort of point. (UR correct me if I'm wrong) But you don't have to be Christian, or part of any religion to be a good person. You just have to be good.

I think it's a self-evident point. Most religions claim that they are somehow different and above the other world religions. I'm not sure how they justify that in their minds, since it probably (usually) has to do with what they were born into lol

About goodness, of course. Religion really has no connection with morals, despite what some religious people may think. Religion and Moral systems are very separate things. Everyone is guided by the morals that have evolved to be acceptable in their society

Edited September 9, 2008 by unreality

[Guest]

Evolution... there are quite a few theroies going around. There was a game for Xbox 360 that came out last year or so. I forget what it is called but at the end the aliens come and they use humans for food, in turn thats why they wound up on earth, to be harvested later like a crop. Maybe we really came from apes... i'm not really that fond of the idea and i would of rather not of come from a baboon

I'm not sure, i havent really given it much thought. If i was to think of something it would have to be that we are a species of our own in the beggining. We are close to apes but to think that we evolved so greatly from them and yet they are the way they are still is a bit confusing. I mean why would we evolve and not them? What would the world have planned for apes and animals alike? Why are we chosen to have intellegence dominance over the rest of the animals? Thats really the only reason why we are on top, because of our intellegence! That has come across me alot... being a brute will get you nowhere, but being intellegent will get you to the top. Also if your smart enough you can concor a brute, no matter how big. Take fighting for example, if you just do street fighting vs boxing or judo, the person who is trained more will win. But certain fighting styles only go so far as well. Anyway i'm off topic...

[Guest]

I think it's a self-evident point. Most religions claim that they are somehow different and above the other world religions. I'm not sure how they justify that in their minds, since it probably (usually) has to do with what they were born into lol

About goodness, of course. Religion really has no connection with morals, despite what some religious people may think. Religion and Moral systems are very separate things. Everyone is guided by the morals that have evolved to be acceptable in their society

I was born into Orthodoxy, and now, over 21 years later I'm questioning everything I was brought up believe. But, like I've said before in another thread, I've always had a fascination with mythology, soo I guess I wasn't never to trapped my the confines of one religion or another.

[unreality]

Not to make this a debate, but:

Science and Religion absolutely go hand in hand. When God created the universe and everything in it he did so with "divine design" so that there would be a system by which all things function. Unless they have somehow been left completely in the dark ages I think that all theists believe that Science, Mathematics, and the other properties and languages of the universe were put in place by God...and so they are are not at odds with one another, but completely interwoven.

I mentioned this in the "Religious Debate" thread, but I will mention it again here as well: My brother-in-law, Scott, was born into a fervent athiestic family. His father, a professor of Biology, was so strongly opposed to the idea of Creationism that he became a major spokesman and lobbyest for the ban of teaching Creationism or anything other than evolution. Scott was raised by the same beliefs. He went on to become a very brilliant scientist in the fields of Evolutionary Biology and Genetic Pre-disposition. After attaining his PdD he was recruited by several Ivy League Universities and settled at Cornell where he was a key scientist in the mapping of the Human Genome. Scott went on to become THE foremost scientist in his field of Statistical Biology and evolutionary function and was sought world-wide by his peers. Beyond the hundreds of Science journals his work was published in he also named by Discover Magazine for on of 2007s top 100 scientific discoveries (#40, in fact.) However, this man, this brilliant scientist, this critical thinker, this seeker of truth came to a point in his life, at the age of 32 where he could no longer deny the existance of a higher power. The more he noodled through the scientific evidence, the more convinced he became that the existance of the universe and of man was not by accident, but the work of a Creator. To the total aghast of his parents, he devoted his heart and his life to God.

He was probably looking at something called the Illusion of Design. It looks designed cuz it was designed by natural processes.

I would love to know if there are any athiests out there who could possibly have a more intimate understanding of the functioning of life and the universe than Scott.

Quite a few, actually. Ever hear of guys like... Einstein? He was that guy with the crazy hair. Oh and Stephen Hawking. Made a coupla theories, nothing big

[Guest]

Who is Einstien?

[Guest]

Not to make this a debate, but:

Quite a few, actually. Ever hear of guys like... Einstein? He was that guy with the crazy hair. Oh and Stephen Hawking. Made a coupla theories, nothing big

Who were these guys???

Must not have done much of anything if I haven't heard about them...

[Guest]

Who were these guys???

Must not have done much of anything if I haven't heard about them...

NEITHER HAVE I!!!

seriously...

[Guest]

I can relate to Scott, not quite as hardcore though.

I grew up Christian and went to a Christian school, and then did my first year of college at a Christian University. I got sick of it and transfered to a public university and the first classes I signed up for were biology and anthropology. I completely through out the notion of god for a few years until I realized one day that I could not make sense of the world if there were no god. I didnt want to be a christian so I went "religion shopping" and really looked into just about everything that was available. Islam was the most tempting, but in the end I came back to christianity.

[Guest]

I can relate to Scott, not quite as hardcore though.

I grew up Christian and went to a Christian school, and then did my first year of college at a Christian University. I got sick of it and transfered to a public university and the first classes I signed up for were biology and anthropology. I completely through out the notion of god for a few years until I realized one day that I could not make sense of the world if there were no god. I didnt want to be a christian so I went "religion shopping" and really looked into just about everything that was available. Islam was the most tempting, but in the end I came back to christianity.

ISLAM!??!?!??!!??!!?!?!??!?

no way on earth am i going to be that

[unreality]

I can relate to Scott, not quite as hardcore though.

I grew up Christian and went to a Christian school, and then did my first year of college at a Christian University. I got sick of it and transfered to a public university and the first classes I signed up for were biology and anthropology. I completely through out the notion of god for a few years until I realized one day that I could not make sense of the world if there were no god. I didnt want to be a christian so I went "religion shopping" and really looked into just about everything that was available. Islam was the most tempting, but in the end I came back to christianity.

I probably would've picked Buddhism

I'm curious about people (such as PG)'s tolerance of other religions. Do you think Allah is another 'interpretation' of your own god? What about Buddha? How do you know your god isn't actually Buddha? etc

[unreality]

ISLAM!??!?!??!!??!!?!?!??!?

no way on earth am i going to be that

That's disrespecting. Islam has a lot more credit than just blowing people up, you know. It has a bad rep here in the States.

edit: bringing my post #20 to this page:

I probably would've picked Buddhism

I'm curious about people (such as PG)'s tolerance of other religions. Do you think Allah is another 'interpretation' of your own god? What about Buddha? How do you know your god isn't actually Buddha? etc

Edited September 9, 2008 by unreality

[Guest]

We're off track, myself included.

We're not here to discuss famous atheists or scientists turned religious. We're here to talk about theism and explane, or debate, how the world around us could in fact be the result of ID

[Guest]

I probably would've picked Buddhism

I'm curious about people (such as PG)'s tolerance of other religions. Do you think Allah is another 'interpretation' of your own god? What about Buddha? How do you know your god isn't actually Buddha? etc

to many questions.......

[Guest]

I can relate to Scott, not quite as hardcore though.

I grew up Christian and went to a Christian school, and then did my first year of college at a Christian University. I got sick of it and transfered to a public university and the first classes I signed up for were biology and anthropology. I completely through out the notion of god for a few years until I realized one day that I could not make sense of the world if there were no god. I didnt want to be a christian so I went "religion shopping" and really looked into just about everything that was available. Islam was the most tempting, but in the end I came back to christianity.

I know a lot of people that go religious shopping. Personally though, I'm more comfortable not being confined to one set of beliefs and have more of a melting pot of beliefs.

[unreality]

see posts 20 and 21

[Guest]

I know a lot of people that go religious shopping. Personally though, I'm more comfortable not being confined to one set of beliefs and have more of a melting pot of beliefs.

sooooooooo.... your like everything?