[Guest]

I was going to post this as a reply to question posed in Others, but whadya know, it was deleted ...

First of all, I want to make it clear that I appreciate the work of the moderators, and I am very glad that they prevent the forums from becoming a free-for-all. However, I think that there is some valid reason for irritation at the manner in which moderation is occasionally peformed, and I would like to express my opinion on the matter and see how the moderators and members feel about the topic.

Here's what the Posting Instructions say about moderators: "BrainDen is here for the enjoyment of our members. Moderators will take appropriate action, with or without further warning to ensure a rewarding experience for everyone. This means that offensive, flaming, disrespectful or harassing content of any type can lead to the termination of an account."

I agree with this on principle. The last sentence is self-explanatory, and obviously I have no problem with a moderator deleting offensive content. It is much harder to clarify, however, what it means to "ensure a rewarding experience for everyone." If a thread deals with a specific topic or question, and someone posts a side point which is likely to lead to an off-topic discussion, should the moderator delete it? In general, I would say no, there is no reason to. If there is an ongoing topical discussion, extraneous comments will be ignored by the active participants. However, if they choose to get distracted from the topic at hand, how can you say that preventing them from doing so is ensuring a rewarding experience for everyone?

As we've seen in the past few months, these issues occur most frequently in threads in Others that deal with controversial topics such as evolution or the existence of God. For that very reason, extra care has to be taken that moderation is not unfairly biased toward particular a view. This can be difficult due to the great variety of posting styles. When the discussions get really involved and span many pages, it's not uncommon for a newbie to pop in and contribute their two cents without really taking into consideration the previous dialog. It can be annoying, but it's understandable that everyone wants to have their voice. Also, even more frequently, members will make statements that were discussed earlier in the thread, or in other threads. Isn't this inevitable? Especially in threads like "religious debate," you can't expect posters to have waded through 40+ pages of discussion. For a moderator to simply delete posts because they don't mesh with his idea of what constitutes a "rewarding experience" is rather heavy-handed and kinda sucks out some of the fun.

In short, I don't think it's really necessary to take a strong-arm approach to keeping the discussions in line. Ultimately, these forums are supposed to be fun. For a few individuals to feel like they have the responsibility to maintain the intellectual integrity of the discussions seems contrary to the laid-back nature one would expect to find on a puzzles site, and poses the risk of inserting unfair bias into the moderation process.

Any thoughts?

[itachi-san]

I've never noticed a post or thread getting deleted that I didn't feel was perfectly within reason to delete. Like you said, the Religious debate goes on and on; the admin/moderators haven't cut into it. Also, take the Earth Theory debate. The two of us went off on a 2-3 page debate that had nothing to do with Earth Theory, now it's finally back on track, but it's not like those posts were deleted because they were tangential to the original topic. I get your point, but from my experience, what you're saying seems unnecessary.

[Guest]

I've never noticed a post or thread getting deleted that I didn't feel was perfectly within reason to delete. Like you said, the Religious debate goes on and on; the admin/moderators haven't cut into it. Also, take the Earth Theory debate. The two of us went off on a 2-3 page debate that had nothing to do with Earth Theory, now it's finally back on track, but it's not like those posts were deleted because they were tangential to the original topic. I get your point, but from my experience, what you're saying seems unnecessary.

itachi,

Did you get a chance to see my post on the evolution thread before it was..............removed?

[Guest]

I was going to post this as a reply to question posed in Others, but whadya know, it was deleted ...

First of all, I want to make it clear that I appreciate the work of the moderators, and I am very glad that they prevent the forums from becoming a free-for-all. However, I think that there is some valid reason for irritation at the manner in which moderation is occasionally peformed, and I would like to express my opinion on the matter and see how the moderators and members feel about the topic.

Here's what the Posting Instructions say about moderators: "BrainDen is here for the enjoyment of our members. Moderators will take appropriate action, with or without further warning to ensure a rewarding experience for everyone. This means that offensive, flaming, disrespectful or harassing content of any type can lead to the termination of an account."

I agree with this on principle. The last sentence is self-explanatory, and obviously I have no problem with a moderator deleting offensive content. It is much harder to clarify, however, what it means to "ensure a rewarding experience for everyone." If a thread deals with a specific topic or question, and someone posts a side point which is likely to lead to an off-topic discussion, should the moderator delete it? In general, I would say no, there is no reason to. If there is an ongoing topical discussion, extraneous comments will be ignored by the active participants. However, if they choose to get distracted from the topic at hand, how can you say that preventing them from doing so is ensuring a rewarding experience for everyone?

It is impossible to ensure a rewarding experience for everyone. That's why it says we'll do our best to do this. Doing our best often means it won't make everyone happy and that even moderators won't always make the perfect decision. Should all posts that are extraneous comments be deleted? No. And I think you'll agree there has been a lot of latitude in that area. Posts are deleted when it is way-off topic or the post is an attempt to derail the OP's topic to stop being discussed because an entirely new, usually controversial topic has been introduced. This isn't fair to the OP or anyone willing to have an on-topic conversation.

When this is done, the post is sometimes deleted and the poster is given a PM letting him/her know why, and an invitation to start a new thread is given. Is this not fair? Is it too much to ask to start another thread where their topic can be given priority and both threads can stay on topic? I think this is absolutely the best way to ensure a rewarding experience for everyone, especially since starting another thread takes minimal effort. The moderator also pastes the deleted post to the poster so he/she doesn't have to gather their thoughts again and write an OP from scratch. I think this is as fair as can be.

As we've seen in the past few months, these issues occur most frequently in threads in Others that deal with controversial topics such as evolution or the existence of God. For that very reason, extra care has to be taken that moderation is not unfairly biased toward particular a view. This can be difficult due to the great variety of posting styles. When the discussions get really involved and span many pages, it's not uncommon for a newbie to pop in and contribute their two cents without really taking into consideration the previous dialog. It can be annoying, but it's understandable that everyone wants to have their voice. Also, even more frequently, members will make statements that were discussed earlier in the thread, or in other threads. Isn't this inevitable?

Lots of posts that don't belong are inevitable. Not all of them are deleted. Some are.

Especially in threads like "religious debate," you can't expect posters to have waded through 40+ pages of discussion.

When a thread has gone on for that long, it is expected that it not be dragged out even longer to discuss something which has been discussed because someone is not interested in reading the entire thread. Again, not all posts like this are deleted but sometimes it is appropriate.

For a moderator to simply delete posts because they don't mesh with his idea of what constitutes a "rewarding experience" is rather heavy-handed and kinda sucks out some of the fun.

We do our best. If decisions aren't to be made based on what constitutes a rewarding experience, then what?

In short, I don't think it's really necessary to take a strong-arm approach to keeping the discussions in line. Ultimately, these forums are supposed to be fun. For a few individuals to feel like they have the responsibility to maintain the intellectual integrity of the discussions seems contrary to the laid-back nature one would expect to find on a puzzles site, and poses the risk of inserting unfair bias into the moderation process.

Any thoughts?

As you know, not all of the topics are laid back, regardless if this is primarily a puzzle site. And we do have the responsibility to maintain the intellectual integrity of the discussions. That's a big part of moderating a debate/discussion.

[Guest]

itachi,

Did you get a chance to see my post on the evolution thread before it was..............removed?

No, but I bet you're just dying for someone to ask you about it so you can complain about a specific moderator decision, even though your thread in "Others" was closed because it seemed like an attempt to do just that. BTW, I agree with that thread being closed. Message boards generally don't allow threads to be started every time someone doesn't like a decision that was made so a bunch of posters can play "let's jump on the moderator".- nor should they.

[Guest]

No, but I bet you're just dying for someone to ask you about it so you can complain about a specific moderator decision, even though your thread in "Others" was closed because it seemed like an attempt to do just that. BTW, I agree with that thread being closed. Message boards generally don't allow threads to be started every time someone doesn't like a decision that was made so a bunch of posters can play "let's jump on the moderator".- nor should they.

Scraff...My original posting was on a thread "evolution". My posting was deleted. I have pointed no finger at a specific moderator, so dont assume thats my intention. My closed thread was an attempt to start a topic in reguard to what happened, last I checked, I was i a debate forum. Im not complaining about the thread being closed as I was sure it would be. I wanted attention called to what I feel was an unfair call on deleting my posting on the "evolution" thread. If you didnt see it, then ..............what was your opinion? Oh well, it doesent matter because you didnt see it.

[Guest]

Scraff...My original posting was on a thread "evolution". My posting was deleted. I have pointed no finger at a specific moderator, so dont assume thats my intention. My closed thread was an attempt to start a topic in reguard to what happened, last I checked, I was i a debate forum. Im not complaining about the thread being closed as I was sure it would be. I wanted attention called to what I feel was an unfair call on deleting my posting on the "evolution" thread. If you didnt see it, then ..............what was your opinion? Oh well, it doesent matter because you didnt see it.

Im not trying to start a fight with anyone or the esablishment. I am upset about my orig posting on the evolution thread being deleted.I have enjoyed my time at brainden, and I hope to continue.

[Brandonb]

Im not trying to start a fight with anyone or the esablishment. I am upset about my orig posting on the evolution thread being deleted.I have enjoyed my time at brainden, and I hope to continue.

When was the evolution thread posted? B/C there is another one that has been up for a few weeks HERE. Could it be that yours was deleted because the topic/discussion was already open in the forum?

[Guest]

When was the evolution thread posted? B/C there is another one that has been up for a few weeks HERE. Could it be that yours was deleted because the topic/discussion was already open in the forum?

do you not get it...... i didnt start a new thread on evolution, I posted on a pre-existing thread and my posting was deleted. By the way, the thread on evolution that I posted on, its the same one you put on your link, notice I have no posting on it. Thats because it was , in my opinion, and a few others, deleted unjustly.

[Guest]

Hey folks, I lurk here frequently and don't post much, but this thread caught my attention and I wanted to say a few things. I'm a mod on a forum and I can tell you it's a pretty thankless job. We don't get paid and almost every decision made is bound to make someone unhappy and they often let us know it. Some of us are more involved than others and some just coast along and like having the title "moderator" under their name. The one's that get involved usually get more flack, but they're almost always trying to make things best for everyone, which is why they've been chosen to be a mod in the first place.

Yes, sometimes deleting posts is the best choice and no one can expect anyone to always make the right decision. Threads staying on topic is very important, and I'm betting that's an even harder task then on my site, as this one attracts a lot of younger folks who may not be that familiar with proper posting form.

do you not get it...... i didnt start a new thread on evolution, I posted on a pre-existing thread and my posting was deleted. By the way, the thread on evolution that I posted on, its the same one you put on your link, notice I have no posting on it. Thats because it was , in my opinion, and a few others, deleted unjustly.

Going by Martini's post, it seems you were offered to start another thread and a mod thought your post was off-topic. If that's so, that's not unjust. Don't take it so personally. I agree with others that making this a public objection is not cool and these sort of threads would have been closed and deleted on my site. Be cool, take up objections with the mods privately, not publicly, and keep in mind that they are only trying to make the best decisions on the spot and don't even know you. Try to put yourself in their shoes- it's no fun to be criticized publicly- trust me.

[Guest]

It is impossible to ensure a rewarding experience for everyone. That's why it says we'll do our best to do this. Doing our best often means it won't make everyone happy and that even moderators won't always make the perfect decision. Should all posts that are extraneous comments be deleted? No. And I think you'll agree there has been a lot of latitude in that area.

Yes, in retrospect, there has been a fair amount of latitude.

When this is done, the post is sometimes deleted and the poster is given a PM letting him/her know why, and an invitation to start a new thread is given. Is this not fair? Is it too much to ask to start another thread where their topic can be given priority and both threads can stay on topic? I think this is absolutely the best way to ensure a rewarding experience for everyone, especially since starting another thread takes minimal effort. The moderator also pastes the deleted post to the poster so he/she doesn't have to gather their thoughts again and write an OP from scratch. I think this is as fair as can be.

Actually, I didn't know you did this. In fact, that was something I was going to suggest, so I'm glad it's already the current policy. That resolves a lot of my concern.

When a thread has gone on for that long, it is expected that it not be dragged out even longer to discuss something which has been discussed because someone is not interested in reading the entire thread. Again, not all posts like this are deleted but sometimes it is appropriate.

I agree that's probably an appropriate action for really big threads. I thought your recent comments on the "religious debate" thread were fair.

We do our best. If decisions aren't to be made based on what constitutes a rewarding experience, then what?

As you know, not all of the topics are laid back, regardless if this is primarily a puzzle site. And we do have the responsibility to maintain the intellectual integrity of the discussions. That's a big part of moderating a debate/discussion.

I guess my OP was in response to a perception on the part of myself and others that sometimes the decisions about what is most rewarding are overly biased, and that a more moderate approach to moderation might lighten the atmosphere a bit. I realize you're trying to act in the best interests of the greatest number of people, and those decisions aren't always easy. Please keep up the good work, but please also remember that the site is for fun, and a biased or authoritarian response to questionable posts will most likely lead to indignation rather than appreciation for the work you do.

[Guest]

Im just upset that my posting was not left in place, as expected. I dont feel it was off topic at all. I have received messages from others who happen to see it before it was removed, and they think it should have been left. Im sure it really wasnt that great of a posting, but it was MY valid opinion. Next time I want to post my opinion, should I ask the moderator what it is? Because thats what this site will boil down to. Postings of the moderators decision, but just the ones they like. Hey.....lets burn some books next.Whooa! did you see that? Major 1930's flashback. Maybe I should be sent to Cyber Jail for my thoughts. Or flee persecution to another site thats more appriciative of my ability to induldge in my free thinking.

[Guest]

I appreciate the comments and I hope we all learned from them. Perhaps we'll attempt to re-direct a topic when going astray before deleting more than in the past , but keep in mind in some cases this is almost impossible, as some posts are so controversial, it's difficult to get others to not respond to them and get the thread going on a different path. Starting a new debate within a thread shouldn't be expected to be tolerated.

[Guest]

I guess my OP was in response to a perception on the part of myself and others that sometimes the decisions about what is most rewarding are overly biased, and that a more moderate approach to moderation might lighten the atmosphere a bit.

Just FYI, my views on evolution ARE bisaed, but my decision to close that thread was not. I closed that thread because no one had posted in it for months and someone that it seemed actually had my point of view, attempted to not only resurrect it, but get an entirely different topic going. This poster was also invited to start another thread if he/she wished. My decision would have been the same regardless of what the personal views of the OP are.

[Guest]

Just FYI, my views on evolution ARE bisaed, but my decision to close that thread was not. I closed that thread because no one had posted in it for months and someone that it seemed actually had my point of view, attempted to not only resurrect it, but get an entirely different topic going. This poster was also invited to start another thread if he/she wished. My decision would have been the same regardless of what the personal views of the OP are.

I guess that confirms that sometimes decisions are made based on factors we are unaware of, and it's better to give the moderators the benefit of the doubt. I just went back and read a whole pile of the posts you've made in recent months, and it seems to me that the great majority of your moderating comments are, while perhaps a bit blunt, also quite fair. I couldn't help but appreciate this comment, since it didn't exactly mesh with my perception:

"Who is this person [Martini] that knows all the answers and can make me look so stupid and, unlike other posters, do it so tactfully. I've read numerous remarks by what I know now are other moderators that I thought were snippy and arrogant. You've never been that way and I admire that."

I realize that a lot of what I was perceiving as "attitude" had specifically to do with your personal bias regarding evolution, and wasn't necessarily reflected in your general moderation. If you wish to delete this thread, that's fine with me.

[Guest]

Just FYI, my views on evolution ARE bisaed, but my decision to close that thread was not. I closed that thread because no one had posted in it for months and someone that it seemed actually had my point of view, attempted to not only resurrect it, but get an entirely different topic going. This poster was also invited to start another thread if he/she wished. My decision would have been the same regardless of what the personal views of the OP are.

I have nothing to do with that thread. So, what was the reasoning for deleting my post from the "active" thread titled "evolution". I was not far off the topic. And the other thread that was close to it, you had already closed. So, once a topic is discussed, and closed, anything else is ignored and deleted because its been done before? What about the new people? The thread was closed befor I joined, so I, and other new people never had a chance. The active thread I had posted on today (posting deletion in question) had had no postings for almost 2 weeks, what was the harm in going slightly off topic when it was going nowhere as is?

[Guest]

I really appreciate the comments and understanding you've showed Duh Puck, more than you know.

I have nothing to do with that thread. So, what was the reasoning for deleting my post from the "active" thread titled "evolution".

The OP in that thread asked why we still have monkeys and apes if that's where we evolved from. You also had a question about evolution. You asked "But, other than a few flimsy, weak, pathetic examples of the "missing link" skeleton, what real proof is there that man evolved?"

Starting a new debate within a thread is what's commonly called taking a dump in someone else's thread. An OP that wishes to discuss why a species didn't go extinct after speciation has occurred deserves to not have someone ask what proof there is for human evolution, as that is a sharp right turn and redirects the focus of the OP. Allowing posters to start new debates within a thread sets an example for others to do the same.

There's no reason you should be offended by being asked to ask that question in your own thread. It takes a few moments to copy and paste your question in a fresh thread and everyone can focus on your intended topic and also the OP of the other thread. Attempt to make this analogous to book burning if you like, but others can decide if that's a wee bit of an exaggeration.

So, once a topic is discussed, and closed, anything else is ignored and deleted because its been done before?

Never said that. Resurrecting old threads being a no-no is a common guideline on many message boards. If you want to start a thread on a topic that's not being discussed in an open thread and it hasn't already been addressed, and offers something new, no one will try to stop you.

If you wish to delete this thread, that's fine with me.

No, but if you don't mind I'll close it since as one poster suggested, this may, and seems to already have become by one poster, "let's jump on the moderator".

Disagreements with specific moderating decisions should be done privately.