[Guest]

In the religious debate thread the topic of hell has come up a couple times. It's certainly relevant to the issue of belief in God since apparent inconsistencies in the character of the biblical God are often highlighted by atheists as a reason for disbelief, eternal torment in hell by a supposed God of love being a common one. However, as the moderator pointed out, a discussion of the religious doctrine and the biblical basis for it is outside the scope of that thread. Fair enough, but I would like to continue the discussion.

As I described in my last post on the subject, I believe that "hell" as used in the Bible refers to the common grave of mankind, to which both righteous and wicked people go. In other words, it's basically the state of being dead, as opposed to being alive. Since individuals in the Bible are described as being brought back to life (i.e., resurrected), it would follow that such a hell is not a permanent state. I also explained that I believe that the scriptures that refer to Gehenna and the "lake of fire" refer to eternal destruction, a judgment which does not have the hope of restoration to life. So an individual who is figuratively thrown into the "lake of fire" is dead for good. End of story. I provided a few scriptures to support those views in that post, but if you would like more, let me know. I'd be happy to oblige.

Obviously, I am well aware that this is not the mainstream Christian view of what "hell" means. However, when I asked people to explain why they believed as they did, nobody actually provided any reasons. One atheist stated that the Bible couldn't serve as a basis for belief, but it shouldn't take long to realize that doesn't make much sense. It's fine if he doesn't accept the Bible as inspired by God, but if a person does, then wrong or not, it's logical for him or her to form beliefs regarding the afterlife based on what the Bible says. What I'm really trying to point out, however, is that most religious people who claim to base their belief on the Bible can't actually use it to explain their beliefs. And further, I believe that this applies not only to individuals but to the great majority of Christian churches. There are so many church doctrines, hellfire included, which are based on church traditions and incorporation of the beliefs of other religions, rather than the Bible. Therefore, just as the thrust of the argument about the existence of God revolved around establishing a logical basis for one's opinions, I would like to see a logical discussion, based on the Bible or otherwise, for why you do or don't believe in Hell, and if so, what you believe it to mean.

Any takers?

[unreality]

Life isn't fair.

exactly my point in my post, I said something along the lines of "wouldn't this clash with your notion of a 'fair' God?"

I'm just saying that you can't have it both ways. You can't have God be infinitely wise and just, yet condemn people to infinite suffering at the same time. That's why, if I was a theist, I would agree with Duh Puck. The "soul", if such a separate consciousness exists, would not be immortal. It would come into being at birth and cease to exist at death, ie, it would require the body and brain to supply energy to exist or something, so if your "body" dies, so would your "soul" (though if you were religious and still wanted your reward at the end, ie, "heaven", then you could say that your soul goes to heaven afterwards upon certain requirements or whatever)

[Guest]

When we decide what is just and unjust instead of letting God tell us through his word, we supersede Gods authority and demote him. Now God must conform to us.

Does the clay tell the potter what to do?

[akaslickster]

All I can say is: Would someone tell these (people) I think you know who they are) to stop bugging my neighbors and I. Every month 2 different ones are ringing the bell to try to get you over to there church. Hey free dinner! NO NO NO NO!!! Just stop already. You are pesky people thats why I won't go to your church. You need money for funds? Earn it like the rest of us! Religion is fine if you don't shove it around in others faces.

[Guest]

When we decide what is just and unjust instead of letting God tell us through his word, we supersede Gods authority and demote him. Now God must conform to us.

Does the clay tell the potter what to do?

I agree that it's important to have humility when grappling with topics we don't understand. For example, Job didn't understand why he was suddenly struck with incredible suffering, and when his false friends accused him of covering over sin, he defended his own righteousness, not God's. Even though he didn't directly state that God had acted unjustly, this was implied, and Elihu thus counseled him at Job 36:23,24: "Who has called his way to account against him, and who has said, ‘You have committed unrighteousness’?" Only when one sees the larger issues involved does God's permission of Job's trials seem just, and since we have to assume that God always has a larger perspective than we do, we can rightly conclude that we are in no position to question whether or not what he does is fair.

However, the topic of hell is much different, since we're trying to determine what the Bible actually teaches on the topic. If there was a scripture that said "The souls of those who reject God will burn for an eternity in the fires of hell as just payment for their sin," we might be in the more difficult position of trying to reconcile this with the perfect justice of God, and I can understand a humble person accepting that he just doesn't see the whole picture, and choosing not to question whether or not God is being fair. But that's not the situation. There's no scripture that says that, and it doesn't take any convoluted logic to realize that the scriptures in the Bible talking about eternal burning or the lake of fire are symbolic of eternal destruction. Hence, the whole question of God's fairness with regard to hell is a false dilemma.

Incidentally, the Bible doesn't show that it's entirely improper for humans to question the fairness of God. In fact, that's exactly what Abraham did when God declared he was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Notice how he responded to God at Genesis 18:25:

"It is unthinkable of you that you are acting in this manner to put to death the righteous man with the wicked one so that it has to occur with the righteous man as it does with the wicked! It is unthinkable of you. Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?"

Did God reply "Who are you to question me, you puny human?" No, he patiently answered Abraham, explaining that he would spare the cities if there were even 10 righteous people found in them. We can see from this that it was important to God that humans understand that his actions are just. Actually, this makes a lot of sense in view of what the Bible is all about. In the Garden of Eden, Satan called into question the righteousness of God's rule, implying that God had lied to man and was withholding something good from them (the ability to choose their own morals). Basically, the theme of the entire Bible is how God would clear his name of reproach and vindicate the righteousness of his rule by means of his kingdom, reversing the temporary damage and restoring things to the way he had originally intended. From the beginning, he wanted his intelligent creation to worship him because they love him, but it's pretty hard to genuinely love someone who uses their authority as the basis for his actions without justification. Honestly, if God said "I burn people eternally because I am God and everything I do is right," I don't think love is what I'd be feeling. As long as we have appropriate humility, it's reasonable to expect God's actions to be in harmony with the qualities he claims to manifest, and is in fact in the process of defending from accusation.

That being the case, it makes perfect sense to evaluate teachings in the context of whether or not they fit with God's qualities of love and justice, and in that context, eternal hellfire fails pretty miserably. Fortunately, there really isn't a good reason to struggle with the dilemma, since the support for the belief is so terribly weak in the first place.

[Guest]

All I can say is: Would someone tell these (people) I think you know who they are) to stop bugging my neighbors and I. Every month 2 different ones are ringing the bell to try to get you over to there church. Hey free dinner! NO NO NO NO!!! Just stop already. You are pesky people thats why I won't go to your church. You need money for funds? Earn it like the rest of us! Religion is fine if you don't shove it around in others faces.

Heh. Since I'm the only Jehovah's Witness I've seen on the forum, and I haven't seen any Mormons, I have to conclude you're talking to me.

Of course, we don't offer free dinner and we don't ask for funds, and the great majority of our donations come from our own members, most of whom, like me, do in fact earn our money (actually, we don't have any paid clergy, or clergy at all, for that matter). So maybe you weren't talking about JW's.

In any case, I have to wonder how you would have responded to Jesus and his disciples, who he commanded to go and preach to everyone (Matt 28:19,20). I suppose they were shoving it in people's faces too. Of course, that might have something to do with them believing that your eternal life is at stake. If someone really believes that, I would think it would be hard to fault them for being persistent in trying to get the word out.

[akaslickster]

Heh. Since I'm the only Jehovah's Witness I've seen on the forum, and I haven't seen any Mormons, I have to conclude you're talking to me.

Of course, we don't offer free dinner and we don't ask for funds, and the great majority of our donations come from our own members, most of whom, like me, do in fact earn our money (actually, we don't have any paid clergy, or clergy at all, for that matter). So maybe you weren't talking about JW's.

In any case, I have to wonder how you would have responded to Jesus and his disciples, who he commanded to go and preach to everyone (Matt 28:19,20). I suppose they were shoving it in people's faces too. Of course, that might have something to do with them believing that your eternal life is at stake. If someone really believes that, I would think it would be hard to fault them for being persistent in trying to get the word out.

I have not mentioned any particulars. Ringing bells when its convenient for you to disturb me without notice is offensive and ignorant and annoying. That makes for a sad church. This is only directed to (them)who bug the crud out of me once a month. Edited May 7, 2008 by akaslickster

[Guest]

No.. there is no good nor evil. Just the idea that something is good or evil. "Hell" is often refered to as a place but it is a state of being. Negative actions create negative impulses which leaves negative impressions and a negative life. If you live in this mode of psyche, your life does not consist of internal peace with yourself and your surroundings. Heaven or hell is within, life is without, you must find this peace to be humbled because the idea can change your view on life when lived.

[Guest]

I have not mentioned any particulars. Ringing bells when its convenient for you to disturb me without notice is offensive and ignorant and annoying. That makes for a sad church. This is only directed to (them)who bug the crud out of me once a month.

Yes, this gets very annoying. Last weekend a guy came to my door and told me the end was near and we need to prepare. I bit my lip to say "Its always been near, we are just a little closer now". So I just took his pamphlet and let him leave. ARGH! Next time!!

[Guest]

Would you say then that there is no afterlife? It is just the here and now.

[Guest]

Would you say then that there is no afterlife? It is just the here and now.

Why would there be an afterlife if there was never a beforelife?

[akaslickster]

Why would there be an afterlife if there was never a beforelife?

No one will find out until death, and maybe not even then. People can go on and on with a book or a bible but they have nothing but what they choose to believe. Just once I would like to see what they say had there never been scriptures or books about religion. It would be so quiet and peaceful. hah.

[Guest]

Why would there be an afterlife if there was never a beforelife?

There plenty of obvious answers to this, but it doesn't seem you're really interested in discussing them.

Incidentally, I would appreciate it if posters would stick to the intent of the OP. Your viewpoints on hell or the immortality of the soul are welcome, but the main purpose of this thread is not for you to make declarations of belief, but to discuss the reasons for the conclusions you've come to. If the Bible is your foundation for belief, cite scriptures. If you're agnostic, but you feel you have a strong argument for why humans don't live again after death, please explain. Perhaps you're an atheist, and simply don't believe in an afterlife because there's insufficient evidence, but you believe there are logical fallacies in the arguments presented by others. By all means, jump in. Just contribute something meaningful, please.

And whining about people knocking on your door is not what I had in mind.

[akaslickster]

There plenty of obvious answers to this, but it doesn't seem you're really interested in discussing them.

Incidentally, I would appreciate it if posters would stick to the intent of the OP. Your viewpoints on hell or the immortality of the soul are welcome, but the main purpose of this thread is not for you to make declarations of belief, but to discuss the reasons for the conclusions you've come to. If the Bible is your foundation for belief, cite scriptures. If you're agnostic, but you feel you have a strong argument for why humans don't live again after death, please explain. Perhaps you're an atheist, and simply don't believe in an afterlife because there's insufficient evidence, but you believe there are logical fallacies in the arguments presented by others. By all means, jump in. Just contribute something meaningful, please.

And whining about people knocking on your door is not what I had in mind.

Those who don't go to others doors about religion will go to heaven.

[Guest]

Okay, I didn't take the time to read every single reply thus far, so hopefully I will not repeat someone...

I am a Christian. A firm believer that Jesus Christ is the Lord of creation and the Savior of the world. I did not grow up in a Christian home. I, being a thinking person, came to the conclusion that God is the only thing about life that makes any sense. Hence, I approached Him and He openly revealed Himself to me.

That being said, I absolutely believe in Hell. However, it is my understanding that Hell in not a location, but it the state of being separated from God. God does not chose for any man to die separate of Him, and he certainly does not chose for any man to be tortured for eternity (I will gladly apply scripture if asked)...but God gives us free will so that we can either chose to love Him or chose not to (I could spend hours on this topic alone.) When we die, if we have chosen not to love Him, then we are allowed to do exactly what we thought we wanted...exist separately from God...that is Hell. And Hell is eternal torture only because God is the creator of everything good. If you deny God, then you deny all that is good. If you chose separation from Him - or Hell - then you chose to exist in the absence of goodness. And I don't know about you, but I prefer good stuff to sucky evil stuff.

[Guest]

It is my understanding that Hell in not a location, but it the state of being separated from God. God does not chose for any man to die separate of Him, and he certainly does not chose for any man to be tortured for eternity (I will gladly apply scripture if asked)...but God gives us free will so that we can either chose to love Him or chose not to (I could spend hours on this topic alone.) When we die, if we have chosen not to love Him, then we are allowed to do exactly what we thought we wanted...exist separately from God...that is Hell. And Hell is eternal torture only because God is the creator of everything good. If you deny God, then you deny all that is good. If you chose separation from Him - or Hell - then you chose to exist in the absence of goodness. And I don't know about you, but I prefer good stuff to sucky evil stuff.

I also prefer good stuff to sucky evil stuff.

The belief you expressed seems to be a fairly popular one. I guess many people don't like the whole idea of eternal fiery torment, so the notion of eternal separation from God seems much more reasonable by comparison. I presume that you, as a Christian, base your belief upon the Bible? When you find time for it, I would encourage you to read through the some of the posts in this thread discussing scriptures dealing with the topic of Hell. I've tried to show logically from the Bible that the only Hell the Bible speaks of refers to the grave of man, a figurative place that all the dead go to and where they are simply not alive, that is, nonexistent until resurrected to life by God. It follows that there is consequently no suffering of any sort in hell, whether due to fire or one's own conscience, since there is no conscious thought whatsoever among the dead (Eccl 9:5,10). I believe the scriptures make a strong case for this belief, and I'd be interested in your thoughts. It's certainly different than what most churches teach.

[Guest]

I also prefer good stuff to sucky evil stuff.

The belief you expressed seems to be a fairly popular one. I guess many people don't like the whole idea of eternal fiery torment, so the notion of eternal separation from God seems much more reasonable by comparison. I presume that you, as a Christian, base your belief upon the Bible? When you find time for it, I would encourage you to read through the some of the posts in this thread discussing scriptures dealing with the topic of Hell. I've tried to show logically from the Bible that the only Hell the Bible speaks of refers to the grave of man, a figurative place that all the dead go to and where they are simply not alive, that is, nonexistent until resurrected to life by God. It follows that there is consequently no suffering of any sort in hell, whether due to fire or one's own conscience, since there is no conscious thought whatsoever among the dead (Eccl 9:5,10). I believe the scriptures make a strong case for this belief, and I'd be interested in your thoughts. It's certainly different than what most churches teach.

So I'll go back to my original answer, no. I do not believe in a hell. Hell is defined by something given definition by idea. My earlier comment about "Why would there be an after-life if there was never a before life" wasn't out of context but simply answering a question from a previous post. Even if there is an after-life but we can't remember this life, does it really matter how many times we live?

To better understand and appreciate life, I think we should do our current lives a favor and accept the fact that we won't live again and give the respect for whats around us as being as simply put.. a once in a lifetime experience.

[Guest]

i dont know why people get into debates about this stuff. i think its stupid.

everyone has their own opinion about heven, hell, god, and anything else.

personal i dont believe the theory of evolution, or the thoery of god putting

people on earth.

I think its bullcrap that people think we evolved from monkeys. but if you

go back further in evolution, monkeys evolved from Al-gee. <_<

this is basically the jist us evolution

Al-gee

into

a fish

into

a air breathing fish

into

a walkng, air breathing fish

into

a retard monkey fish

into

us

and that is basically their theory

(i did skip a little, but it would have made matters worse)

And the god Theory is stupid too. if god created us, who created god?

and who created gods creator? i makes no sense.

and if Somehow god did create us, what is our purpose?

all we are doing is destroying the world. therefore all we were created

for was to destroy the world.

and dont get why it matters what you believe, we are all going to die

anyway. And thats it (unless you believe in reencarnation)

who cares what you believe? do you think if you get them to believe

more good will happen to you?

(i dont mean to harp on anyones beliefs)

[Guest]

[Moderator hat on] Thuhchris, if you think debating this stuff is stupid, then you can exercise your right to not participate. But posting your reasons why belief in God and evolution are both stupid is not sticking to the topic of the thread. [Moderator hat off]

[Guest]

[Moderator hat on] Thuhchris, if you think debating this stuff is stupid, then you can exercise your right to not participate. But posting your reasons why belief in God and evolution are both stupid is not sticking to the topic of the thread. [Moderator hat off]

sorry, i didnt mean to say that debating was stupid. i just don't know why do it.

because it usually leads to an aruguement. but i didn't mean to say that god and evoulotion

are stupid. if i offended anyone, i appologize

[Guest]

Thuhchris,

You have stated the questions of life. You have thought about these; I see. How you answer these questions will form your world view. Your world view determines how you evaluate evidences to other questions. Everything you will do the rest of your life depends on your worldview.

I cannot speak as to evolution. I don't believe it. Can you state why you believe there is no God/HELL. Feel free to support your views with logic, inner experiences, outer experiences or any other support

Edited May 15, 2008 by BoscoRanger

[Guest]

Thuhchris,

Y

I cannot speak as to evolution. I don't believe it. Can you state why you believe there is no God/HELL.

Reasons why one doesn't believe in God isn't for this thread. If one doesn't believe in Hell because he doesn't believe in God- then that's the end of the story as far as this thread is concerned. Getting into a debate about why someone's belief/disbelief in God is rational/irrational is for one of the other threads.

[Guest]

No one will find out until death, and maybe not even then. People can go on and on with a book or a bible but they have nothing but what they choose to believe. Just once I would like to see what they say had there never been scriptures or books about religion. It would be so quiet and peaceful. hah.

That's why God made the bible, genius. I don't appreciate the laughter! ... lol... If there had never been scripture, God would find another way of teaching us!

[Guest]

first, i am a theist, particulary of the nazarene denomination, but dont put down the nazarenes for my thinking, im very much in the extreme minority as to my beliefs. i dont think that Satan exists. If God is a loving god, which i believe whole-heartedly and is the basis for most of my ideas, and God created all things, then why did God create Satan and sin? i know the whole snake in the garden story, but whatever on that. To me its more of a fable. so now you say God didnt create the devil (just to clarify, i will use satan and the devil interchangeably), so i say ok then. the devil must at least be equal in "life span" if not older. then how do we know that God is the supreme? why does God win? So thats where my thoughts come in. I believe that when God gave us free will, a chance to choose, there had to be another choice, right? it wouldnt exactly be free will if there was only one thing to choose. so when God gave us that, sin (or you might think of it as the devil if you're really pushing the whole no-satan thing) "came into being." it was a human... not instinct, but like a human-based idea. So then on to Hell. i think that hell well to put it bluntly, doesnt exist. back to the whole loving god thing, God accepts everyone into Gods arms in not really a heaven, not in the sense of an actual place, like streets paved with gold, all that, but more of a content state in which you are in Gods presence (althought God is omnipresent) not on earth but your being, soul, spirit, whatever you want to call it goes to be permanently with God to be of the same... form. really off subject, but has anyone ever heard of Thomas Oord? just wondering. he's got crazy ideas like me. the awesome part is he's my dad!

[unreality]

I, being a thinking person, came to the conclusion that God is the only thing about life that makes any sense. Hence, I approached Him and He openly revealed Himself to me.

how did It reveal Itself to you? just curious, I won't harp your personal experience, I'd just like to know

[Guest]

yeah, really

you've got to be a little more specific if you want us to buy this