Lazy-bones Paradox

[Guest]

It is best to assume Destiny does not exist:

If Destiny exists, it doesn't matter what I believe or do, because everything is predetermined.

If Destiny does not exist, and I believe it does not, I will go about my life normally.

If Destiny does not exist, and I believe it does, I might refrain from doing anything because I believe everything is predetermined.

There is no way to know whether it exists or not, and if it did, there would be no point in knowing!

[Guest]

Destiny is a word we created to explain ALL the factors we don't understand or accept.

also if you believe in destiny you also know that you cannot know what your destiny is. If you are ill, you are ill until you are well or die. Either way is your destiny. Pre-determining your own destiny is a supposition. if he is ill he better go to the doctor, we are not guaranteed tomorrow.

[Guest]

I think that an answer is very plausible. What if it is your destiny to seek help with ur illness (e.g. go to a doctor) so therefore it is still possible to be ill if u go against your destiny, don't see the doctor, and die.

[Guest]

Taking a pro-destiny point of view, one could argue that destiny will fix itself and every action taken by "free will" (a force independent of destiny) will eventually find a way to reach the same outcome, albeit by a different means. An example of this could be, " Your destiny is to be rich. You have a choice (granted by free will) to be a corporate CEO or a well renowned sports star." Either way you choose what to do, but your destiny of becoming rich is still achieved. However, if you look at destiny as an entire plan of one's existence, every action must take place. Basically, if destiny says that you will go to a doctor and regain your health then you will visit a doctor and regain your health. The idea behind this standpoint is that destiny takes into account your thought process, because the author of the master-plan knows that you choose to see the doctor, and thus it is inscribed in the book of destiny. One last standpoint could be that the story of your destiny is written as you live your life, and is not so pre-determined. You might have it in you that you will be a great influence, but is not decided if that is positive or negative. A great example for those who are familiar is the destiny of Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars movies. Anakin is destined to bring balance to the force. The jedi believe that he will accomplish it by destroying the Sith, but rather he becomes one of them (them being the Sith). Balance is achieved, but rather than the positive way in which the jedi hope he will save the lives of many, he kills thousands with the sith as Darth Vader.

WATCH STAR WARS!!

[Guest]

I have the answer

has it ever occured to anyone it is the man's destinty TO GO to the doctor's?

[Guest]

I think that if it was his destiny for him to get well then it will happen, not meaning that if he does nothing he will, but that somehow he will get well,

[*]Maybe it is an obvious reaction to events like that occuring that causes every living thing to react to these events in a certain way...

For istants if your are sick you might want to get well

[*]Or maybe, if it is destiny, it is impossible for you to have a choice of what you want to do, or be put in a situation that can change you destiny. (If u know what i mean)

[Guest]

It's Impossible to prove or to debunk (like the existence of God) that's what always confused me. No matter what happens it can be written off as destiny and no one can prove it wrong short of going back in time and doing things a different way. Just as no one can prove the existence of God because all that are said to be able to see him don't return to tell of it. The two were masterfully created so as to leave no room for argument, no physical evidence. But I suppose one could marvel at the myths simplicity without taking the thing itself seriously, so I continue to wonder.

[Guest]

I asked myself this question 8 years ago, when I was turning 11. =)

The answer is this: destiny is man made.

[Guest]

Destiny doesn't exist.

Juts a repetitive cycle of history.

[Guest]

This is not a paradox!

Destiny is simply a function of "cause" (and effect) over time.

Just for fun, a little pseudo-math explanation follows..

-------------------------------------------------------

(I)

Let:

D = Destiny

U = the Universe

t = time (where t > 0, ie. the Universe exists)

If we define Destiny as simply being the state of the Universe at any given point in time, then we can represent it by: D = U(t)

(II)

Now let:

b = your time of birth

d = your time of death

F = your Free Will, or set of causes you influenced directly.

C = Set of all causes outside of your direct influence. (forces of nature, the free will of others you don't know, etc.)

Then the state of the Universe at any given point in time can further be represented by this function: U(t) = C(t) + F(t)

*where F(t) exists only for (b < t < d), ie. while you're alive.

(III)

Since your Destiny is a subset of U(t), it can also be said that: Dy = C(t) + F(t)

We could try to break F(t) down further and debate if it can ever be bigger than C(t) or if it even has limits (as in, is b

In essences, your Destiny depends in part on your Free Will.

Exactly how much can be up to you!

-------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line:

Use your Free Will to make your own Destiny!

CHOOSE to LIVE YOUR LIFE!!!

..just in case F(t) = 0 when (t > d) is true.

[Guest]

It's Impossible to prove or to debunk (like the existence of God)

I agree, sort of. I think of destiny as being just a way to think about time. If you believe in destiny, you believe that the future is fixed (just like the past.) So you can theorize about what might happen in the future, but "possibilities" are not real things, just reflections of ignorance about the future. In this model there is one unified universe where the past and future are just as certain and real as the present... only the limits of our consciousness make it seem otherwise.

So basically, one model holds that there is one actual future which already exists, and the other that there are many possible futures, one of which will come to exist as time passes. These two views aren't contradictory, they are just different angles on the same fact.

that's what always confused me. No matter what happens it can be written off as destiny and no one can prove it wrong short of going back in time and doing things a different way.

I think this impossibility itself is the proof of destiny. You can't just go back in time and change the course of history because there is only one past. Similarly, eventually the future will be the past, so there can be only one of them.

Which perspective you use doesn't influence the answer to the paradox either. The fatalistic man is wrong in both cases. He does have a say in his future; if he goes to the doctor he's more likely to get well. That's just common sense.

[Guest]

Cause and effect would hold true under either belief. Any action we take is an action whether it be reactionary or proactive. Either way unless death is instant, it ends up being a case of que sara sara.

[Guest]

>If destiny designed a master plan, which defines everything that is to happen, isn't it useless to for example go to a doctor?

If the master plan truly "defines everything that is to happen",

then the details in the plan "which defines everything" tell whether going to the doctor is useless or useful.

If the plan says you are going to go to the doctor and the doctor cures you,

then I would say going to the doctor is not "useless".

If the plan gives other actions and outcomes

(e.g., it says you go to the doctor and die, or you take an aspirin, go to bed and live),

then I would say going to the doctor is probably "useless".

The more interesting question is whether the master plan actually causes actions and outcomes or merely predicts them.

Did the master plan

- cause you to go to the doctor, or

- just predict that you would?

If the master plan says the doctor heals you and the doctor does heal you,

then what caused your healing

- The master plan, or

- what the doctor did

The answer to this question may also reveal whether you can choose actions counter to the master plan.

If the master plan causes actions or outcomes,

then you probably can't act against the plan, or

if you can, the plan would counter "unexpected" actions to ensure the planned outcomes eventually occur.

If the master plan merely predicts actions,

then you may be able choose actions against the plan's predictions

1. What did the plan's creator actually know when creating the plan?

- Is the plan's creator a "timeless" deity that can see past, present, and future at the same instant?

If yes, then this deity already sees your "future" actions and their outcomes.

- Or does the plan maker only know everything about the past and present and uses this information to predict the future? In which case, this being doesn't know the future.

2. And does this being take actions to ensure the plan's outcomes?

- If the creator takes actions to implement the plan,

then, even if you have free-will, this creator counters all your actions to ensure the implementation of the plan.

[Guest]

Perhaps the mans destiny is to go to the doctor. And regardless of his destiny being sick then getting well or being sick and dieing, going to the doctor does him no harm. It boils down to making a conscious choice of how he feels his destiny might play out. He obviously believes in destiny, so does he believe that his destiny is to get well or to die or maybe to go to the doctor. Either way living or dieing going to the doctor does not change that destiny, but it can help him in gaining knowledge about what is ailing him and that knowledge can bring him closer to knowing what his destiny is in this particular situation. If the doc says it incurable cancer then he is destine to pass, but if the doc says that he only suffering from the flue then he knows his destine to get well. Going to the doctor will assist him in discovering his destiny in regards to this particular situation and he can then move on with his life by either preparing for death or planning what he is going to do while he recovers.

There are a hundred ways to look at this question and this is the position that I choose. Therefore I hope it sparks further conversations.

[Guest]

i believe there is destiny, BUT it is also unpredictable. this means whatever u do is exactly what destiny intended u to do.

[Guest]

Argument A:

Who ever said there weren't variables in the master plan, which require input?

Argument B:

If destiny had a master plan that required you to get well, would you really want to be the reason the master plan corrupts

...and the reason sanity the space-time continum go down the tube, destiny goes through depression, gravity reverses based upon the idea that anything known isn't known for sure, aliens from pluto come get revenge for being officially dwarfed...

[Guest]

Destiny is what it is. every decission you make conciously or not is all a part of YOUR destany. if you are ill and your destiny is to become healthy, then yes you would go to the doctor, destany plays a silent, but major role in our lives. There will never be a moment that is not controled by our destany and the divine plan for all life. As there will never be a moment when you realize what our destany is, Ever!, because our destiny is never complete.

[Guest]

if there is a master plan, than no matter what you will get better or worse and it will have already been planned out that you will either go to the doctors or not and if you do thats destiny and if u dont thats destiny

[Guest 20080103]

This is pretty easy, because if whether he goes to the doctor or not go the doctor and whether he lives or dies is all part of his destiny. In other words, his decision to go or not go to the doctor is part of his destiny. So I suggest he still go to the doctors.

[Guest]

But what if his destiny is to go to the doctor's, and therefore get better? Especially if he didn't think of this option.

[Guest]

Destiny is defined and controlled by your actions or character. thus destiny is chosen for you to go to the doctor and get better because it is in your character to do so. But the way to break destiny is to acknowledge destiny thus breaking your character.

[Guest]

Lazy-bones Paradox - Back to the Paradoxes

If destiny designed a master plan, which defines everything that is to happen, isn't it useless to for example go to a doctor? If I am ill and it is my destiny to regain health, than I will regain health whether I visit a doctor or I don't. And if I shall not be healthy again, than I will not with or without help.

If I am ill and destiny has a definite plan for me, than it is useless to go anywhere.

How could you question the presented opinion?

Life would be so simple with "THE IF POSSIBILITY"... Therefore IF we knew our destiny no ones gonna do anything in life, be a lazy person and yet get the fruit of being lazy. Knowing our destiny means when the right time comes incidents take place in our lives n we are aware of them so isn't it your responsibility to take care of your self when you know your going to fall sick. Fine ... you were a bit ignorgent and you decided to fall sick. Now whose fault is that.

All im trying to say is, inspite of knowing your destiny you ignored it so it was as good as not knowing your destiny.

Its like in astrology... an astrologer tells you your going to get very good results for your exam so your happy. You know your fate n develop a lazy kind of an attitude... So u dont study.. and at the finals u fail not forgetting to call the astrologer crap.

No one can get the fruit of any task IF an equal amount of energy is not put in that particular task.

[Guest]

I just think that you can never know if it was destiny or not in the first place. Your mind can trick onself to thinking that it is destiny when it actually wasn't. Simply it was just ur choice. Then if it is and you are dying and you decide not to go because you think it's your destiny then your outcome would be death. Destiny is something you can't assume because it happens regardless but when assume your destiny your just letting your mind allude to what you don't know the outcome to be.

[Guest]

He may think that yet saying that then if he is supposed to go to the doctor. and he is destroying destiny but not dong it. There is always free will and your choices affect what your destiny is. So choosing not ot go to the doctor could could change his destiny for the worst.

[Guest]

What we have here is not exactly a paradox, but an interesting topic. Let's distill the subject a little:

First it's a given that a belief in destiny often leads to bad decision making - it absolves you of responsibility and provides no incentive to think through the consequences of your actions. But still, destiny may exist whether it's useful to believe in it or not.

Secondly, the question of destiny doesn't depend on some quasi-religious notion of a "master plan". Destiny may simply exist without anyone knowing what the "plan" is, perhaps just as a consequence of physics. If the current state of the universe and the laws of physics acting upon it dictate all that happens, then this determines the future regardless of whether we can predict it. Destiny just depends on there being only one possible future.

I should clarify what I mean by "possible" in this case. "Possible" is often taken to mean "something we do not know to be untrue (or impossible)". If I bought a ticket for last night's lottery but haven't checked the results yet, and you ask me "Did you win the lottery?", I might answer "It's possible, I don't know yet". In reality, there is only one possible outcome since it is already determined. I either won or I didn't, I just don't know which it is. So I use the word "possible" to cover my lack of knowledge. But that's not what I mean when I say "one possible future". I mean only one future which can happen. Picture a hypothetical observer standing outside of time. Would they see time as a line, as a single sequence of events from the distant past to the distant future? If so, however unpredictable the future may be, destiny is a reality. And it is on this notion that the "paradox" hangs. While free will seems to be a useful notion, perhaps it is an illusion caused by our inability to keep track of the underlying mechanics, the cause and effect which dictates our every thought. You might say that those who believe in destiny and make bad decisions because of it were destined to do so, and those who believe in free will and make good decisions because of it were equally destined to do so. It still doesn't answer the question of whether you should try and persuade "lazy bones" to go to the doctor. Your choice in the matter, and (if you choose to do so) your success or failure, would also be predestined. The point of the "paradox" is that good decision making seems to depend on believing something which is incorrect. But so what if it does? We often have to simplify matters for practical reasons, and if the notion of free will works for us, why not use it even if we know it to be untrue?

But do we know it to be untrue? Free will and destiny are incompatible, so I would like to pose the simple question: Which is the truth?

Or to put it another way, Can we possibly have more than one possible future?

(naturally I have an opinion on the subject but I'd like to see what others think first...)

Edited February 23, 2008 by octopuppy