Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox)

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well, its the same one, so i think he was lying that all he says was truth. also notice that he doesn't say "all Creteans ALWAYS lie" he just said they were liars. because everyone has lied, then everyone is a liar. However, if someone says "I always lie" then they either A)always used to lie and had a change of heat, deciding to start telling the truth, or B0 they have no understanding of speach at all

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i think that cretan is telling the truth, when he said that all cretans are liars. fortunately for him, nobody cares of what he said. because he is a liar! :lol:

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1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

Well logically everyone lies at some point, either accidentally or intentionally so that means his first statement must be true.

The following weeks statement could also be the truth depending on how you interpret it. We've already established the fact that "All Cretans are liars" as being true due to the fact everyone lies, and the next statement and all I say is the truth. He doesn't state whether he just means all he has said in that one sentence is the truth, or all he has ever said in his life is the truth. If he means all he has said in that sentence is the truth then yes it is true, but if he means all he has said in his life is the truth, then he is lying as if he wasn't then he'd be lying about the fact that All Cretans are liars, as he is a Cretan himself so he must lie or else he should have said All Cretans except me are liars and then he wouldn't be lying.

As for the "I always lie" puzzle - they are lying, because if they always lied then they would be telling the truth which would mean they didn't always lie. This puzzle was in the movie The Labyrinth where she meets two talking doors, they both claim that one of them always lies and one of them always tells the truth and she has to figure out which ones telling the truth - or else she'd be met with impending doom. Although the film makers leave it open for you to decide whether she chose the correct door, as she doesn't meet her doom, but that was only because Hoggle was at the bottom to save her, otherwise she would have. Although as both of them told her one of us always lies, and one of us always tells the truth that would mean both of them were liars. As the one that claims to always lie would have had to tell the truth to say that one of us always lies.

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The "paradox" I always see with these kinds of question is the large assumption about the opposit position.

If a cretan arrives and says "all cretans are liars", if that is a lie it does NOT mean "all cretans tell the truth". The "truth" could be "SOME cretans are liars".

If this is the truth then the cretans statement is fine, he is lying that all cretans are liars, but that still means that he could be a liar, but not ALL cretans.

The only paradoxes (is that the plural of a paradox) that I have seen that works is when it is singular. If it's "I always lie" then you have a problem...

probably...

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Just read the reply above mine....

With reference to the labyrinth film, neither door says that THEY are the liar, they simply say one of them is the liar. She then asks to one door "would HE (the other door) tell me that this (the door she is talking to) is the door to certain doom?". the answer given is "yes".

This works because you are then processing both doors and they cancel each other out. If the first door lies then the second door would tell the truth about first doors answer the answer is the opposite. If the second door lies then the first would tell the truth and the second would reverse it, so it would STILL come out as the opposite. Jennifer Connoly (the actress in the film) actually explains the logic. As the whole film is just one big game anyway it is debatable whether EITHER door would really lead to certain doom....David Bowie tells her at the end that he simply made the labyrinth for her entertainment anyway...

Probably...

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Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) - Back to the Paradoxes

This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

i completely disagree with this paradox because if someone is a liar, that doesn't mean they lie ALL of the time, and if someone is honest, it doesn't mean they tell the truth ALL of the time. and what defines a liar anyway??

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Well logically everyone lies at some point, either accidentally or intentionally so that means his first statement must be true.

The following weeks statement could also be the truth depending on how you interpret it. We've already established the fact that "All Cretans are liars" as being true due to the fact everyone lies, and the next statement and all I say is the truth. He doesn't state whether he just means all he has said in that one sentence is the truth, or all he has ever said in his life is the truth. If he means all he has said in that sentence is the truth then yes it is true, but if he means all he has said in his life is the truth, then he is lying as if he wasn't then he'd be lying about the fact that All Cretans are liars, as he is a Cretan himself so he must lie or else he should have said All Cretans except me are liars and then he wouldn't be lying.

As for the "I always lie" puzzle - they are lying, because if they always lied then they would be telling the truth which would mean they didn't always lie. This puzzle was in the movie The Labyrinth where she meets two talking doors, they both claim that one of them always lies and one of them always tells the truth and she has to figure out which ones telling the truth - or else she'd be met with impending doom. Although the film makers leave it open for you to decide whether she chose the correct door, as she doesn't meet her doom, but that was only because Hoggle was at the bottom to save her, otherwise she would have. Although as both of them told her one of us always lies, and one of us always tells the truth that would mean both of them were liars. As the one that claims to always lie would have had to tell the truth to say that one of us always lies.

actually, it is impossible to accidentally lie. the written definition of a lie is to tell a false statement on purpose. if it is an accident, it's not a lie!

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Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) - Back to the Paradoxes

This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

Well, no one completly lies or doesn't. So for the first one, he was lying because some cretans are liars (one of which is himself) and some are not. Same for the second one.

Duh! :rolleyes:

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Origional statement: "I always tell lies"

Case 1: The person is telling the truth. If such is the case, then they do not always tell lies. This is illogical and so is invalid.

Case 2: The person is lying. This is possible. In such a case, the person is lying about always telling lies and so at some points in their miserable life, told the truth. The person in this case is guilty of both lying and telling the truth. This is the only case that is valid. Therefore, all that can be concluded is that this person tells the truth at times and lies at times, just like all of us.

Please comment back on suggestions on improvements or anything else.

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If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

This is the problem with logic. The phrasing of your question seems to be trying to force a yes or no answer. But there's a simple out-of-the-box response: "Prove it."

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Posted (edited) · Report post

They are lying.

There are two possible outcomes to the statement.

If the person has ever been truthful of honest in the past, then that would make his statement a lie.

If he has always lied in the past, that would make his statement true at the moment it was said, but would then make him a liar for telling the truth when he says he always lies.

Either way it would make his statement a lie.

Edited by jjcanny1
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I agree with one of the first posts that it can be answered by considering time.

I beleive for a statement to be true, it must be true at beginning of the statement. Example If I say "the time is 4:35" and during this sentance it ticks over to 4:36, I still told the truth.

If I say "I always lie", then it is not until the end of this statement that I have spoken a truth. Therefore he did speak the truth, but he can only say it once.

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Hah! simple. before you get caught up in the seeming "complexity" of this, stop. "I am a liar" be logical about this. let's assume he is telling the truth, that he is a liar. then he is lying, because the he says he is a liar. if true, he is lying because liars don't tell the truth.

Or, he could be lying about that. if so, the act of lying in itself makes him a liar.

SOLUTION: no matter what, HE WAS LYING!

.....and i didn't die of exhaustion, thank you very much.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

The statement cannot possibly be true because if they always lie than that statement is true. which makes his/her statement a lie. and if they are they are being honest when they say they always lie then that means they just told the truth which makes the statement a lie. Either way the person would be lying. :huh:

Edited by missdiva070391
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Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) - Back to the Paradoxes

This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

This is fairly obvious i should think,

If someone says "I always lie" then wether they are telling the truth or not they CANNOT always lie because:

1. lets say he's telling THE TRUTH and that up untill that moment he always lied, but by admiting he always lies he has told the truth.

2. he has lied (in keeping with his satement) so if he is lying about lying then he has just told us that he alwayts tells the truth.

So, no matter how you look at it he cannot always lie.

This works for the Cretan assuming that he meant "All cretans are always liars", if not then he would have been able to tell the truth for once and infrom us of the lie telling tenedencies of his cretan countrymen.

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This paradox can be answered like this:

The cretan first says that all cretans are liars - he means to say that all cretans tell lies, it doesn't matter when or how may times, but they lie a lot (to make it simple, they are cunning enough to easily tell lies)

The second time he says that he speaks the truth - that means that cretans do tell lies, but can occasionally be truthful. in this case he is just confusing, but he speaks the truth as he says that cretans are liars (he speaks the truth about cretans BEING liars, aka, the first statement).

So he's not literal in his statements

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Liar Paradox (Eubulid or Epimenides Paradox) - Back to the Paradoxes

This is a well known paradox written by the great stoical logician Chrysippos. The poet, grammarian and critic Philetus of Cos was said to have died of exhaustion attempting to resolve it.

1. A Cretan sails to Greece and says to some Greek men who are standing upon the shore: "All Cretans are liars." Did he speak the truth, or did he lie?

2. A week later, the Cretan sailed to Greece again and said: "All Cretans are liars and all I say is the truth." Although the Greeks on the shore weren't aware of what he had said the first time, they were truly puzzled.

If someone says "I always lie", are they telling the truth? Or are they lying?

1. he lied. he can'tmake this claim truthfully. at least one Cretan is a liar. 2. all Cretans may be liars. the only thing sure is, this one lies now. lastly; they are lying now but not always.

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I don't know why this should be this hard. He's lying both times!

I mean, if he says that all Cretans are liars and he's lying about it, that means not ALL of them are, only some, including him.

The second time he says that only he speaks the truth. He's lying again, which means that he doesn't speak the truth, as it really is.

If someone says he/she's lying always, I would consider it as a joke. :)

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Assuming that when he says "All Cretans are liars" he means that they never say the truh, then he has to be lying. If his statement was true then it automatically becomes a lie. Because he is also a Cretan. He can say "Some Cretans are liers". That could be true.

When he says "I always speak the truth", he is also lying for the same reasons explained above.

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They are lying.

There are two possible outcomes to the statement.

If the person has ever been truthful of honest in the past, then that would make his statement a lie.

If he has always lied in the past, that would make his statement true at the moment it was said, but would then make him a liar for telling the truth when he says he always lies.

Either way it would make his statement a lie.

I think the real question is can a lie also be true at the same time. That is the scenario faced in the second example.

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If i say "I always lie" (statement included) then the statement must be a lie to fall in line with my tendency. But if the statement "I always lie" is a lie, then i don't "always lie" - hence the paradox.

I hope i made that simple.

In other words this statement is only true if it is a lie and only a lie if it is true.

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Alright, so I don't know how anyone could solve this with math... lol.

It's a lie. The Cretan was lying both times he spoke to the Greeks. Both statements combined make one big fallacy... High School Philosophy my dear...

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Well... I consider that you just need to use math to find the solution.

(-) x (+) = (-)

Or you can use filosophy.

If I say that all the people in a town are liers.

I live in that town.

Im a lier, so, what I say is a lie.

The solution is that not everyone in the town is a lier.

The key here I beleive is that the cretan did not say that all cretan's lie all the time. So lets look at it this way, Do liars sometime tell the truth? Yes. Are they still liar's? Yes. So his first statement can be true, but his latter cannot.

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He is definitely lying... in both cases... He couldnt know all the Cretans, so he couldnt tell that all the cretans are liars... Even if we dont "see" this fact, he said that every Cretan is a liar, this means that he is a liar too. In the Quote 2, he said, that the stuff what he said is truth, however, HES A CRETAN!!!, he must be a liar, and when somebody claims that hes a liar, and claims, that hes telling the truth, hes obviously lieing...

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Actually, it is the truth.

It doesn't not state that ALL Cretans lie ALL the time, it simply states all Cretans are liars..

I could also state All people are liars & be telling the truth. In my experience, given the correct inspiration, everyone lies at one time or another.

The second statement lends more to confusion, but taken in parts it is simple, again the truth is that all Cretans are liars, the lie is that this person always speaks the truth.

Nothing anywhere says that there can not be the truth & a lie in the same statement, for example. I could say, "The truth is, I always lie." that statement is in fact a lie..

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